Russia/Georgia Situation News & Updates

Ukraine, NATO start military drills in Poland

KIEV, September 2 (RIA Novosti) - A joint Ukrainian-Polish-British tactical exercise began on Tuesday at the Nova Demba military training grounds in Poland, the Ukrainian Defense Ministry said.

The Cossack Steppe 2008 exercise is part of the NATO Partnership for Peace Program and has been conducted in succession on the territories of the three countries since 1997.

“The current exercises are aimed at practicing stabilization measures in a region controlled by opposing terrorist and extremist forces,” the ministry said in a statement.

More escalation.

Ukraine to increase rent for Russian Fleet by up to 25 times
More escalation... Russia will be forced to move them, pay or invade or help forces in the Ukrainian government to topple Yushenko.

[edit on 2-9-2008 by Vitchilo]

www.youtube.com...

The truth. I could go into to detail how Russia moved all of its best troops and equipment in the area for the attack under the cover of an exercise a month earlier but I do not have time. Most of the troops came from St.Petersburg and never returned after they left with every piece of gear that they had.

We knew they were going to attack just not when and did not think that they would be harsh enough to do this during the Olympics.

Russia brought in its best to pull this off and given how the Georgians did against them, I say that they did pretty good because Russia did not want to risk trying to take the capital. They would lose many many men if they tried.

Russia needs to get out of Georgia before they get themselves into a war that they can not win without nukes.

reply to post by pluckynoonez


The Russians didn't say they were scared of NATO or the United States; they said they're worried about Saakashvili doing something 'reckless.' Foreign Minister Lavrov said it last week, I think. I translated it from the Interfax news agency website.

reply to post by Vitchilo


Ukraine is going to demand Russia pay $2,500,000,000 for port rental?

Nice.

Over to you, Putin.

[edit again on 2-9-2008 by chips - for crap maths]

[edit on 2-9-2008 by chips]

[edit on 2-9-2008 by chips]

On a small side note: How many times do you think 'those Russians' will be mentioned at the GOP Convention?

Everyone needs an enemy, right?

Hm.

reply to post by chips


Yep. 2.5 billions instead of 98 millions... a year. That's a breach of contract. Seriously, this guy, Yushenko, is REALLY anti-Russia and if it draws Ukraine into NATO, it will escalate very fast and there will be no turn back. Something needs to be done to prevent that.

BTW, I was watching a conference in a Virginia university that Zbigniew Brzezenski gave in 2002 saying that NATO enlargment wouldn't increase tensions with Russia.... and he said that he was sure of that. We know what happenned to that.

Russia President Dismisses Georgia’s Leader as a ‘Political Corpse’

MOSCOW — President Dmitri A. Medvedev of Russia said Tuesday that he no longer recognized Mikheil Saakashvili as the president of Georgia, calling him “a political corpse” in his most lacerating words to date about a government Moscow wants to force from power.

In an interview with the Italian television channel RAI, Mr. Medvedev adopted a combative tone more often associated with his predecessor, Vladimir V. Putin.

Like Mr. Putin, he speculated that the war in Georgia was intended to benefit one of the candidates in the American presidential election, almost certainly a reference to Senator John McCain. He said the United States armed Georgia and then “gave Mr. Saakashvili carte blanche for any actions, including military ones.”

Asked whether he would participate in Italian-brokered negotiations with Mr. Saakashvili, Mr. Medvedev responded sharply. “For us,” he said, “the current regime has gone bankrupt. The president, Mikheil Saakashvili, doesn’t exist for us. He is a political corpse.”

(The New York Times)

Update: Fred Thompson just mentioned Russia. That was quick.

Anyway, does anyone have any ideas as to what Russia's 'answer' might be to the build-up of NATO ships in the Black Sea?

reply to post by chips


Sending a fleet near the US coast aka Cuba? Putting hundreds of anti-ship missiles on the Russian border? Putting nukes in Cuba? Which by the way...

Fidel Castro says Gustav hit Cuba like 'nuclear blast' So it may be a hint at something.... or nothing.

I don't know.

[edit on 3-9-2008 by Vitchilo]

Originally posted by Vitchilo
reply to post by chips

 

Sending a fleet near the US coast aka Cuba? Putting hundreds of anti-ship missiles on the Russian border? Putting nukes in Cuba?

I don't know.

Don't forget about the Russian armada going to Syria...

So far it's a lot of banter back and forth..

My eye is on Ukraine right now.. seeing as some Russian diplomats want to take the port away from Ukraine..

Originally posted by chips
Anyway, does anyone have any ideas as to what Russia's 'answer' might be to the build-up of NATO ships in the Black Sea?

More yapping at the mouth lol. Its ridiculous, We moved one ship out and moved one back in to make a total of three U.S. ships that have been there. There is only one or two left in there.

Putin will not do anything unless he is nuts. Talking tough while we have a thousand fighters and bombers near by is kind of crazy let alone our fleet is four times as large and lethal.

Some big changes now occurring in Ukraine,the pro-Russian party has reduced the presidents powers,there may be an apparent attempt to overthrow the pro-NATO Yushcenko, i couldn't see this coming



[edit on 3-9-2008 by all2human]

"WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The United States on Wednesday announced at least $1 billion in aid to help U.S. ally Georgia rebuild after its conflict with Russia over the separatist enclave of South Ossetia last month."
(first time I've ever posted an outside source so I am not sure how to put in the link)

A feakin billion dollars in "aid" to help Georgia. I assume most of this money will be going into their military coffers. We are trying everything we can to get this war kicked off. The Neocons need this war in order to win the election and they will stop at nothing to achieve that objective. Start buying non-perishable canned goods and water now, its coming!

[edit on 3-9-2008 by The Oak]

reply to post by chips


www.abovetopsecret.com...'
Ukraine in snap election warning
Russian influence in Ukraine, government on brink of collapse
Perhaps Russia will get "cooperation", like it or not from Ukraine,and block NATO without firing a shot.







[edit on 3-9-2008 by all2human]

reply to post by The Oak


Do it like this.

When writting your post, click the button that looks like this
and copy the text to the box that appears. You may have to do some tweaking.

Then click this button
and write the text you want (I usualy just write "source") and on the next box put the link to the page from where you got the text.

It should look like this:

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The United States on Wednesday announced at least $1 billion in aid to help U.S. ally Georgia rebuild after its conflict with Russia over the separatist enclave of South Ossetia last month.

Source

Think of it this way guys..


Suppose that, a couple of decades ago, the state of Texas decided to secede from the United States. Then some people in a small region of Texas decide to break away and form a mini-state. The Texas government doesn't like this, and there is an initial "civil war" followed by a tentative cease-fire... which turns into fighting again.

The U.S. army establishes itself as an ally of the rebels and fights against the Texan army. Soon after the conflict has receded into cease-fire again, the Russian government announces that they're sending an extra $1 billion to the Texan government. $1 billion extra; they had already been funding the Texan army and praising the rise of this new state for a while. If you think Americans would have the right to feel threatened by this, the same applies to the Russians in this real situation.

Originally posted by Sky watcher
The truth. I could go into to detail how Russia moved all of its best troops and equipment

Best troops and equipment? Most of the armor the 58th army used in S Ossetia was largely obsolete, even including T-62 tanks. There were also many conscripts among the Russian troops. Hardly "best" in any sense. Russia rushed into S Ossetia whatever they had in the area at the time.

Also if Russia planned this don't you think they would have layed out a more comprehensive and realistic air-supremacy campaign? Russian airforce barely played a role in the conflict.

Originally posted by Sky watcher
in the area for the attack under the cover of an exercise a month earlier but I do not have time.

Russia has been carefully watching S Ossetia for about three months before the conflict - as a response to Georgia gradually channeling its troops to the border. Georgia on the other hand accuses Russia of starting the military build-up. At this point it is not clear who is correct.

Plus remember that U.S. held joint military exercises with Georgia about the same time as the Russian exercises you mention. Perhaps it was a "just in case" move by Russia, to be ready for anything.

Originally posted by Sky watcher
Most of the troops came from St.Petersburg and never returned after they left with every piece of gear that they had.

What??? Where is this bullshat from? The 58th army is large enough to support any operations in the area. No one from St. Petersburg military district was involved (maybe just a small VDV contingent, but very doubtful).

Originally posted by Sky watcher
We knew they were going to attack

Did you miss the news - it was Georgia who started the fighting when they attacked Tskhinvalli on August 7th (before the Olympics started). Russia intervened about 14 hours later.

Originally posted by Sky watcher
Russia brought in its best to pull this off

Proof? What is Russia's best? The Zapad and Vostok GRU battalions? They are very good at mountain fighting, but Russia brough them in because they are closest to the conflict zone (less than 100km away).

Originally posted by Sky watcher
and given how the Georgians did against them, I say that they did pretty good because Russia did not want to risk trying to take the capital.

Risk? What did they risk? Taking on the might of the Georgian army - which ran away so fast that it abandoned virtually 1/3 of its equipment and ammunition to the Russians? And who said they were even going to Tbilisi? The Russians stopped just outside Gori and stayed there a few days. Russia send about 100 pieces of armor all together to the conflict zone. Don't you think that if they wanted to take Tbilisi they would have sent more like 1,000? The 58th army has more than enough assets to make an invasion realistic.

This is all just hypothesis, built on hypothesis, backed up by nothing but hypothesis. You present no valid facts.

Originally posted by Sky watcher
They would lose many many men if they tried.

Based on what information? That maybe, possibly, someone somewhere thinks so or wants to think so? Georgians were never good fighters in recent history - and this is no exception. In fact the Chechens and Abkhaz have a saying that to defeat the Georgians one just needs to show up with a gun.

Originally posted by Sky watcher
Russia needs to get out of Georgia before they get themselves into a war that they can not win without nukes.

They are out of Georgia, but within the agreed upon buffer zone. And what war is it that they cannot win? A war with Georgia? Think again. A war with U.S.? Not happening.

Regarding Ukraine - there is major political instability there at the moment. However this is not some "coup" attempt by Russia. This is internal realignment of Ukrainian political parties that was a long time in the making.

Yuschenko held on to power only thanks to his alliance with Timoshenko. Timoshenko only used Yuschenko to get to power in Parliament during the Orange Revolution - and now she doesn't need him anymore. So she is joining sides with the rest of Yuschenko's opposition to limit his powers. This has little to do with Russia - this is Yuschenko's allies betraying him.

In fact Yuschenko is as good as finished, and has no chance in the next election. His popularity rating is now below 9%. The people see that he lied to them during the Orange Revolution-Coup. Their standard of living isn't better but worse than it was. The economy is crumbling. The country is split in two over relations with Russia. 65% oppose NATO membership while Yuschenko pushed it through.



Yuschenko's game is over. He stayed in power this long thanks to an alliance with Timoshenko. Now she is going her own way. Although she is not pro-Russian in any sense, she found it beneficial to ally with Yuschenko's pro-Russia opposition in the Parliament. Now they have enough power (votes) to impeach him, and all they need is a good enough reason (think Clinton's sex scandal).


Seeing what is happening, Yuschenko wants to get rid of the Parliament and call for reelection. In this case the opposition parties would still win, but it would give him some extra time to solidify and centralize his power. The Ukrainian Supreme Court will likely vote against his decision to get rid of the Parliament as unconstitutional. But even if it supports his decision - the opposition may stage a peaceful revolution of their own to force him to resign.

[edit on 3-9-2008 by maloy]

reply to post by maloy


With all due respect Maloy, being allied to a pro-Russian party, IS being pro Russian.
These events within the Ukrainian government ARE a direct result of the decisions made during/regarding the Rusi/Georgia war!
Russia could easily influence/have it's hand in Ukraine's politics
You have been the backbone of this thread ,your research skills are second to none!I have generally agreed with your views, but don't be so quick to discredit peoples posts,or risk proving your own i agree with you, this is an internal matter in Ukraine's goverment,but your missing my point,The timing of this is very suspect, If Yushchenko is replaced, Ukraine will likely not be in NATO. Imo this would be a huge strategic loss for NATO.



[edit on 4-9-2008 by all2human]

Originally posted by all2human
With all due respect Maloy, being allied to a pro-Russian party, IS being pro Russian.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend sort of thing? If you really know Timoshenko - then you know that she is not pro-anybody. She is a cunning businesswoman/politician/criminal who uses any opportunity to get ahead. She has no true allies in politics - just temporary "sidekicks". Her ultimate goal is to be elected as President so she can enact her economic policies. Kremlin does not consider her an ally of any kind. In fact Russia had a travel ban and an arrest warrant in her name for a long period of time for corruption and crime investigations.

Originally posted by all2human
These events within the Ukrainian government ARE a direct result of the decisions made during/regarding the Rusi/Georgia war!

Yes it is a catalyst. But trouble started long before the war. The moment Timoshenko allied with Yuschenko during the Orange Revolution, speculation started on when the "marriage" will break. She chose this time to break the alliance for a reason obviously, and yes that reason are the relations with Russia.

The Ukrainian Parliament has made a decision that Yuschenko is reckless in foreign relations, and that everything he does benefits the U.S. and not Ukraine. Because of his actions Ukrainian economy is collapsing, and the country is being split in two. The Parliament is also criticizing his support for Saakashvilli.

Now tell me - is the Parliament not representative of what the people want? The pro-Russian Party of Regions and Timoshenko's party together make up over 2/3 of the Parliament. Is it also not representative what the people of Ukraine want - if Yuschenko's approval rating is less than 10%?

Call it what you may, but this is democracy. If Yuschenko is impeached - thats democracy. Yes someone is always pulling the strings, but Yuschenko has his own strings.

Originally posted by all2human
Russia could easily influence/have it's hand in Ukraine's politics

And why wouldn't it? U.S. influenced the politics of countless countries worldwide. China has an influence on its neighbors' politics.

Yes - Russia is exercising influence. But if Ukraine needs Russia's oil and gas - then too bad. The people have made a choice - and the majority support economy over ego. They may not like it - but their economy directly depends on Russia's energy. That's how American style "democracy" works.




And I am not discrediting your posts. I am simply saying that this is an internal break between Ukrainian parties - and Russia is not responsible for causing it. Unlike you may believe - FSB and Putin do not exercise any control within Ukraine. Ukraine was always an independent source since 1991 - even if they were pro-Russian the politicians did what was ultimately better for Ukraine (unlike Yuschenko).

Ukraine's pro-Russian President Kravchuk was one of the main engineers of Ukraine splitting from Russia to begin with (as well as the split of USSR as a whole). Kuchma was also pro-Russian, but he had his own differences with Russia and ultimately did what he felt best for Ukraine, and nobody called him a puppet. Same goes for Yanukovich (who ran against Yuschenko and won, but was forced to give up power). He is pro-Russian, but he takes no orders from Kremlin.

Make no mistake - Ukraine was never a Russian puppet state after USSR collapsed. But now it is a U.S. puppet state. The people and the Parliament want Yuschenko gone. Russia's pressure counts too - but it is not the deciding point. And gone he will be.