War in Georgia

Originally posted by Iblis
i. Please do not assume I am American. That's not only ignorant, but offensive

The fact is, Russia is certainly not a paragon of stability in its present state, and Mr. Putin is driving it into the Earth when it might otherwise flourish -- It's even choking the oil industry, one of the few assets keeping the country in a good place.

Couldn't elaborate on that , could you ? I mean , I see Gazprom making enormous profits for itself and for Russia. I see Putin's presidency as a asset for russian economic power based on his diplomatic efforts in the caspian sea area and southern asia to achieve an almost monoplolistic control over the gas pipelines . I don't think anybody has ever criticized him as such as an economic loss to russia as you do here, not even the americans . So .. just a little back up on that opinion, thanks )

Originally posted by Iblis
The fact is, Russia is certainly not a paragon of stability in its present state, and Mr. Putin is driving it into the Earth when it might otherwise flourish

How exactly would you like to back that arguement. Are you in Russia? Are you aware of changes going on in Russia compared with the 90's? Are you aware of Putin's reforms and why he fought to oust the oligarchs from power? What exactly is he driving into the Earth?

And who is the paragon of stability? Switzerland? Norway? Lichtenstein? Japan? Thats about the only ones who come to mind.

Originally posted by Iblis
It's even choking the oil industry, one of the few assets keeping the country in a good place..

Who is choking the oil industry? How? Where do you get this stuff. Russian energy firms are flourishing as never before. Energy profits are through the roof. The profits are flowing to the government instead of going to foreign oil companies.

What does Russia's economy even have to do with Georgia? Are you trying to derail the topic?

Originally posted by Iblis
And as you said, certain leaders would best be ousted and evacuated before they are killed. At-least for their sake.

As much as I am against violence to achieve political means, I would pay good money to see the head of Saakashvilli on a stake. He is directly responsible for hundreds if not thousands of deaths of South Ossetians and his own soldiers.

Originally posted by Iblis
iv. Five was mentioned earlier in this topic.

As was the report of hundreds of dead Georgian civilians from Russian air strikes. Zero proof so far, and no confirmation of any kind.

Originally posted by Iblis
I'd request you start applying basic logic and research to your responses to me.

How many facts have you used so far in your comments? I started this thread to keep up with current updates about the war which commenced 35 hours ago when Georgia began an artillery bombardment of Tskhinvali. I have posted all confirmed and unconfirmed news with sources, and posted a disclaimed that the news have a spin and should be taken with a grain of salt.

You posted ubiquitous and cliche random accusations against Putin.

Originally posted by Iblis
To be responded with ridicule and insults is harsh, especially when unfounded.

I ridicule comments made without any background knowledge on events in S. Ossetia, and made without any confirmed factual support. The reason I ridicule them is because this random speculation and misinformation is only making this conflict more seem confusing and is drawing attention away from the slaughter of civilians started by Georgia.

Originally posted by Iblis
My discussion about bombers was regarding the bloody nose.

Yet that does not make the fact that bombers are utterly irrelevent to this story go away. And what is this "bloody nose" talk? You want to give Russia a bloody nose? Go take a rifle and join Saakashvilli's ranks. No need to mobilize innocent Georgian civilians to fight for that deranged lunatic.

Originally posted by Iblis
Perhaps Russia would begin bombing with bombers, as opposed to the S-series?

It will not. It is not part of Russia's strategy, and is completely unneeded. Perhaps you want Russia to begin "boming with bombers"?

Originally posted by Iblis
Your response to my anti-air claim is pretty pathetic.

I am just pointing out that Georgian claims are pretty pathetic.

Originally posted by Iblis
Get your obnoxious bigotry out of here.

Hmmm. Or what? You will give me a bloody nose? I have a right to post news, and present my point of view on them. This is what I have done. Call me a bigot, call me a propagandist - some have - I couldn't care less. But please don't tell me to get out of here.

Originally posted by Iblis
I asked for a factual response, and you respond with drivel.

I posted countless news in this thread. My comments are backed up by those news. I am still looking for any facts in your comments however. Tell me if you find any.

Originally posted by Iblis
It's one thing to be offensive to me, another to hijack my post.

I argue politics. I started this thread to promote a discussion of the breaking and under reported events. I have a right to argue against you comments. If you can't stand the arguement and debate, then I have nothing to say to you.

Originally posted by gnothiseauton
reply to post by unbelievable

 

Thus, Georgia's offensive was in its own territory, and Russia's invasion was coming into a nation that is not debatable among the superpowers of the world

It doesn't matter where the attack took place. That is completely ridiculous. Georgia kills Russian peacekeepers and you say they shouldn't do anything? You invaded for "fear" of WMDs, Russia invaded because of actual lost lives. Somehow in your logic "fear" of WMDs is more legal than actual deaths...

I am sorry but I cannot understand how you do not see the conflict in your beliefs.

ummmm didn't israel kill some UN peacekeepers a couple of summers ago and say "oops...our bad?" i don't recall too many people hankering to invade them for it either. isn't this kind of a risk "peacekeepers" take when they go into an unstable area? is it SOP to retaliate when their lives are lost? particularly when pitting a nation the size of russia against on the size of georgia? this verges on the unbelievable as an excuse for russia to invade. sorry. i don't buy it.

Originally posted by ~Lucidity
is it SOP to retaliate when their lives are lost?

Russia intervened not just because of the peacekeepers, but because the majority of South Ossetian civilians have dual Russian citizenship. S. Ossetia appealed directly to Russia for help.

Originally posted by ~Lucidity
particularly when pitting a nation the size of russia against on the size of georgia?

Size has nothing to do with this. Georgia innitiated the hostilities by starting an artillery barrage in the midst of peace talks and after declaring ceasefire. It targeted civilians. It has to answer for its actions.

Originally posted by ~Lucidity
this verges on the unbelievable as an excuse for russia to invade. sorry. i don't buy it.

If you kept up with the news, this is not the reason why Russia intervened. There were several reasons. The threat of ethnical cleansing is another one.

maybe, just maybe, do you think that the warships that we have headed to iran right now may just have something to do with this insurrection that is happening right now????
George bush has sided america with georiga. the israelis are backing the georgians as well. america will ALWAYS back the israelis. something is happening and this is just the begining.
see what happens in a week.

Originally posted by ~Lucidity

ummmm didn't israel kill some UN peacekeepers a couple of summers ago and say "oops...our bad?" i don't recall too many people hankering to invade them for it either. isn't this kind of a risk "peacekeepers" take when they go into an unstable area? is it SOP to retaliate when their lives are lost? particularly when pitting a nation the size of russia against on the size of georgia? this verges on the unbelievable as an excuse for russia to invade. sorry. i don't buy it.

So you'll be ok then, when/ if any of the 1000 + US military (advisors) in the area (Georgia) inadvertantly get killed . I bet you won't . You'll be up whining about how US personnel have taken a hit and you need to retaliate .

Erm, I've been keeping up with this story all day but was shocked to just read on CNN that now Russian bombs are falling on Tbilisi

www.cnn.com...

I thought this was limited to South Ossetia and that Russia wasn't going after Georgia itself? Did I miss this, or is this breaking news?

Originally posted by Gun Totin Gerbil

So you'll be ok then, when/ if any of the 1000 + US military (advisors) in the area (Georgia) inadvertantly get killed . I bet you won't . You'll be up whining about how US personnel have taken a hit and you need to retaliate .

how you came up with this out of what i said is a pretty damn interesting leap.

and accusing me of whining is quite the *SNIP* remark. snip away.

were those "advisors" the same ones that advised saddam?

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Moderator-Note: Profanity removed as per members request.

[edit on 9-8-2008 by Skyfloating]

Originally posted by maloy
If you kept up with the news, this is not the reason why Russia intervened. There were several reasons. The threat of ethnical cleansing is another one.

you were doing fine till here. then you became an arrogant judgmental *SNIP*. i HAVE tried to keep up and it's why i'm here. thanks for the other answers though. and oh, by the way, size and geopolitical motivations have EVERYTHING to do with it.

and also, people with "dual" citizenship who live in areas that are outside of their country of origin know the risks too, particularly when they start instigating insurgencies.


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[edit on 9-8-2008 by Skyfloating]

Originally posted by ~Lucidity


how you came up with this out of what i said is a pretty damn interesting leap.

Don't worry about it then .

I doubt it is much of a mental leap for most people .

LATEST UPDATE:

There appears to be less and less confirmed news from the conflict region in recent 12 hours. This may either be due to heavy fighting which is preventing journalists from accessing the area, or because Russia or Georgia are trying to establish a media black-out and control all of the news coming from the region themselved.

Little new info can be gathered from BBC, RIA news or Itar-Tass, except that several countries have exressed their positions on the conflict. As expected Uschenko in Ukraine is throwing his support behind his buddy Saakashvilli. Bush and Condoleezza Rice are condemning Russia's intervention, but have nothing to say about Georgia's shelling of civilians in Tskhinvali. Eastern Europe is starting to bark, but very little can be gather from them - maybe they are just howling at the moon.


Unconfirmed news from biased sources like Rosbalt and South Ossetian News Agency have several new reports (disclaimer - take this with a grain of salt lest anyone call me a propagandist again):

There are large numbers of destroyed and burning Georgian armor scattered in Tskhinvalli. This must mean that Georgians indeed entered the South Ossetian capital. However there is no reports indicating whether or not there are any dead or wounded Georgian soldiers in those vehicles. South Ossetia is reporting that it is mainly resorting to use of rocket propelled granade launchers against the Georgian armor. All of this is earily reminiscent of Russia's attack on Chechen capital of Grozny in 1994.

Reports indicate that Georgians have left Tskhinvali. However Russian armor still hasn't moved in - and it not clear why. Much of the small city is in ruins, and most civilians are still hiding. They are unlikely to come out untill Russian troops secure the area. The main city hospital is destroyed, and many wounded cannot be attended to. This could severly increase casualties. Currently Tskhinvalli is quiet, and Georgian shelling has ceased.

Russia is reading another armed contingent ready to enter S. Ossetia - most likely because Georgian troops still occupy major parts of the breakaway republic. There is no update on Russian army casualties, but I predict they will go up by a sizeable amount when further news breaks later today.

Georgian forces are said to be regrouping, which explains the temporary ceasation of fighting and shelling. They are mostly engaging Russian troops indirectly, through artillery and mortar fire. While Saakashvilli declared nation-wide mobilization, there is relative quite in Tbilisi. Young men are reportedly already being issued orders to report to military bases for the draft. Families are said to be hiding their sons to prevent them being drafted, in hopes this this will all soon subside. All police forces are being issued special orders, and there are rumors of martial law to be declared. Saakashvilli does not have enough power in Tbilisi to carry out martial law however, as all military units are dispatched to the conflict zone and the police force is rather small. Some speculate martial law may have more to do with mobilization and threat to Saakashvilli from within Tbilisi - than with threat of Russian attacks.

Partly confirmed reports of government building and military installations in Tbilisi being evacuated. Where they are being transfered to is not clear. Georgia may be fearing precision strikes by Russia airforces. However no stike on Tbilisi has yet been confirmed.

Saakashvilli is receiving numerous calls from worried world leaders.

Only new air stike against Georgia was to destroy railway between Tbilisi and Zagudi. No casualties are reported.


On Russia's side, Medevedev is busy taking calls from world leaders. Putin is to remain in Beijing for now, and besides talks with Bush who is also in Beijing appears to be staying out of the conflict. This is a trial moment for Medvedev.

U.N. Security council has blocked the proposed Russian documents outling the restoration of ceasefire and negotiations. Other than this the Security Council has not taken any action or approved any decision. It's members' hands are said to be numb from sitting on them all day.

In UN meeting, Georgia refuses to restore the status quo which was in place prior to start of hostilities, and refused to withdraw from S. Ossetia.




That is it for now. Lets hope there is no media black-out of the conflict zone, because lack of real news will only lead to unhealthy speculation and posturing. I truly hope that the reports of thousands of dead S. Ossetian civilians are false. This is already by far the bloodiest fighting in the Caucasus since the Second Chechen War has ended in 2006.

Originally posted by BaileyKat
Erm, I've been keeping up with this story all day but was shocked to just read on CNN that now Russian bombs are falling on Tbilisi

www.cnn.com...

I thought this was limited to South Ossetia and that Russia wasn't going after Georgia itself? Did I miss this, or is this breaking news?

This is a fairly recent development. I will try and get in touch with my source in Tbilisi to confirm this. So far no footage of any destruction in Tbilisi. I would think Georgia would have it up in no time.

I hope Russia does not escalate this beyond what is needed. A surgical strike against Saakashvilli's regime wouldn't hurt, but bombing civilians in Georgia is totally out of question and should be condemned.

Originally posted by ~Lucidity
you were doing fine till here. then you became an arrogant judgmental prick.

Score! I am a bigoted, propagandist, judgemental prick. I guess you guys really don't like being questioned and debated with ehh? And what have you contributed to this thread?

Was I really doing fine? Wow. Thanks for grading my performance. Would you give me a 6 out of 10? Pretty please? You opinion matters so much to me.

I use express my judgement in the way that I do because this topic hits close to home for me, and means a lot to me.

Originally posted by ~Lucidity
and also, people with "dual" citizenship who live in areas that are outside of their country of origin know the risks too, particularly when they start instigating insurgencies.

It is yet to be confirmed what occured in the days leading up to the war. The massing of Georgian troops has started long before the alleged insurgency. And wasn't it the Georgian insurgent snipers that started firing on S. Ossetian and Russian positions in the few days before the war?

On the face of it, and reported claims is that it is Georgia who started attacking innocent civilians at the breakaway region.
Its always normal civilians who have to suffer and it pisses me off.
my opinion,
Georgia have been used by N.W.O for another expanding border, Georgia easily fell for it, dont know what bargaining chip was? maybe trade or oil.
Now Georgia will pay for being greedy and attacking breakaway region as I dont think NATO will get directly involved as that could cause bigger conflict.
Or is that what hidden and not so hidden powers want?
From what is reported, Russia is helping the civilians and bombing targets to stop this happening, which every normal human being should applaud.
but, is it really what it seems when reported through media?
Us normal working, honest,loving civilians throughout the world shall have to stick together and find out who really is the enemy?. who is the liar? and who manipulates for profit? .


[edit on 9-8-2008 by Sparkey76]

Originally posted by Gun Totin Gerbil

Originally posted by ~Lucidity


how you came up with this out of what i said is a pretty damn interesting leap.

Don't worry about it then .

I doubt it is much of a mental leap for most people .

don't worry about it? fine. and you just keep doubting away and making your ridiculous assumptions.

reply to post by maloy


you guys? what the flip is the problem with you people?

i had some honest questions is all. god lighten up.

but first, do do me the courtesy, if that is within your skill set, to define you guys for me?

please. i'm waiting.

Yo Sparks, if Russia goes into Georgia or starts bombing Georgia (like I believe they already have), then your assessment is wrong.

Why? Because if Russia were just defending and driving back Georgian foces in it's break-away province, it wouldn't venture into Georgia, just beat them back.

Not the case. Russia's goal for sometime now has been to get the original 15 Russian Republics back under their Communist form of government.

As it is now, these Republics are turning into democracies (Georgia led the way and is one now).

Hundreds of civilians, do you really believe everything you hear - this is always greatly exaggerated by the native news agency.

Originally posted by ~Lucidity
but first, do do me the courtesy, if that is within your skill set, to define you guys for me?

I am somewhat familiar with the "you guys" cliche in the U.S., but being a Russian I do not know much about. I do not know what skills set you expect me to possess. If something about what I said offends you then all I can say it doesn't take much to offend you.

What I meant was the people on their threated calling me a bigot, a propagandist, and a prick, and yet contributing no news, developments or facts in this discusion.

Originally posted by jetxnet
Not the case. Russia's goal for sometime now has been to get the original 15 Russian Republics back under their Communist form of government.

!!!!

I was waiting for this. Ok getting the republics back part I understand, paranoia is not easily cured. But "their Communist form of government"? Sweet. I can put on my commie hat again.

I don't even want to know where you discovered that Russia is being ruled by a Communist government now.

Originally posted by jetxnet
As it is now, these Republics are turning into democracies (Georgia led the way and is one now).

Research Orange and Rose revolution. A careful examination will reveal that this is not how democracy works - it is how political coups work.

Originally posted by jetxnet
Hundreds of civilians, do you really believe everything you hear - this is always greatly exaggerated by the native news agency.

In fact the agencies report thousands of dead. I speculated that it is more like hundreds.

oh geez. using the term "you guys" means YOU have lumped me into some sort of category based on a few typed questions. you said "you guys really don't like blah blah." that is offensive. you don't KNOW me. i'm done with this arrogant bunch. enjoy *SNIP* each other off. men are such idiots sometimes.


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[edit on 9-8-2008 by Skyfloating]