Who is the real killer in abortion? The parent or the politicians

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reply to post by HIFIGUY

HIFIGUY...I couldnt agree more with your statement...
"The OP was merely to indicate that the Government, the attachment of any elected official to a very sensitive matter is one of MORALITY and not one of legislation."

I 100% agree you cannot legislate morality, and a person's choice on these types of matters is just that a personal choice...meaning one they have to make for themselves.

A Law has no place in this discussion.

I tend to believe that an even greater wrong is forcing someone to give birth to a child they don't want...

like I have stated, I DO NOT agree with abortion as a means to an end...but the reality of life is doing away with it, without a viable alternative will lead to alot of unwanted and possibly negelected children...and don't tell me adoption is the answer...there are way too many orphans in the world for us to adopt our way to an acceptable answer.

Originally posted by Amaterasu
Well, certainly it's wrong to kill a child. But if we are talking abortion, we are talking a fetus, not a child. If one believes the (infallible) word of the Biblical God...

The soul does not enter until first breath. Ergo, what is in the womb is NOT human, given that, according to the Bible (and therefore, that infallible God), one is not human unless one has a soul.

And so... To abort a fetus is akin to slaughtering a pig, cow, chicken, or any other animal.

Genesis

Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being

It wasn't take a breath, it was having the breath of life breathed into him.

Point taken by moderator, and my apology to deadbang. This is an issue of concern to minimize and reduce a result which has caused many tears and much debate in society.

The source of my OP was actually in reading an attachment to Obama on third term abortions and I realized that it really had nothing to do with him, Bush or McCain. This is an issue of personal morality, within oneself, and if one believes as I do, between them and the Almighty God.

Peace


[edit on 3-8-2008 by HIFIGUY]

Abortion is Not murder

Originally posted by HIFIGUY

Originally posted by Amaterasu
Well, certainly it's wrong to kill a child. But if we are talking abortion, we are talking a fetus, not a child. If one believes the (infallible) word of the Biblical God...

The soul does not enter until first breath. Ergo, what is in the womb is NOT human, given that, according to the Bible (and therefore, that infallible God), one is not human unless one has a soul.

And so... To abort a fetus is akin to slaughtering a pig, cow, chicken, or any other animal.

Genesis

Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being

It wasn't take a breath, it was having the breath of life breathed into him.

Peace

Not everyone believes in God

Originally posted by HIFIGUY

Originally posted by Amaterasu
Well, certainly it's wrong to kill a child. But if we are talking abortion, we are talking a fetus, not a child. If one believes the (infallible) word of the Biblical God...

The soul does not enter until first breath. Ergo, what is in the womb is NOT human, given that, according to the Bible (and therefore, that infallible God), one is not human unless one has a soul.

And so... To abort a fetus is akin to slaughtering a pig, cow, chicken, or any other animal.

Genesis

Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being

It wasn't take a breath, it was having the breath of life breathed into him.

Peace

It's not in the Bible, it's in the laws and instructions the Biblical God gave the Hebrews. The Talmud.

I am pro choice.

If a person does not want to have a child, I would rather have the child be aborted than be in unwilling hands.

And I don't want to hear # about orphanages or adoption because they are one of the most under funded institutions in the United States. If you believe abortion should be illegal you better be adopting some children and donating money to orphanages.

A pregnancy is a potential life, just like sperm. If the correct series of events take place it will become a human, a pregnancy is just one step further it is still not a human.

Do we hold woman responsible for their pregnancy like a child? If she decides to live unhealthy and do crazy # and loses the pregnancy do we charge her with negligence? No.

I think it's important NOT to throw religion in with abortion, although, the idea of not throwing religion with it is a completely impossible task to many individuals.

Stop mixing religion with Everything. It's sickening. So a female wants to get rid of something. A Woman does not want to pregnant. Why exactly does a man in power have to deny her rights? Because the fetus has rights? That's a bit rough considering if that child is born a girl & she grows up to be a beautiful woman who gets pregnant and wants to abort the problem. She can't because the government will say no because it's morally wrong in religion circumstances. A woman was once a little fetus, a little blub in her mother's womb and had more rights at that time than she ever will in the future.

Since when do YOU have the right to judge someone for what they do with their bodies?

"Pro Lifers" have no right to judge. No right at all. They are Wrong but whatever suits them.

In fact, I found a very good site (a lot of political humor involved, but if you search for "first breath" on the page, this is what you find:

If you honor freedom of religion,

If you honor the United States Constitution,

If you honor the Christian Bible which clearly and directly states that an individual human life begins at first breath,

If you honor the Moslem Koran that indirectly states that an individual human life begins at first breath.

If you honor the Jewish Talmud which clearly and directly states that an individual human life begins at birth,

If you honor the Native American religions which teach that an individual human life begins at birth/first breath,

If you honor the Eastern religions which hold humans as spirit beings who always were and always will be,

If you honor the rights and the freedom of atheists who believe there is no soul at all,

If you honor whatever God you profess to worship,

then the only reasonable option is to honor the God-granted rights of all other human beings. This means to allow all people the right to make their own religious decisions, not only about abortion, but also about everything else in their personal, private lives.

Source: www.choice101.com...

So it would seem LOTS of Gods have mentioned this fact.

Oh, and to you HIFI, and to the rest of the antiabortion folks, I ask again:


What would you do in this situation:

You have broken your pelvis, say, and go in for an x-ray at 6 months. Also, you have come down with bronchitis and are prescribed tetracycline.

Now x-rays are seriously bad for a developing fetus, and tetracycline is known to cause serious birth defects ala thalidomide.

Shortly after you have had your x-ray and are nearly done with your 10 day prescription of tetracycline, you are told you are 8 weeks pregnant.

What do you choose to do?

[edit on 8/3/2008 by Amaterasu]

To put the thread back on track and to not rehash the meanings of life, and where it begins but rather, reclarify and state Governments inability to legislate morality in a matter such as this.

In the issue of abortion, this should not be decisive issue to a presidential race and the attachment of Obama to supporting 3rd term abortions.

Likewise, the supporting of McCain on the stance of pro life alone is also wrong, thus putting the issue of abortion at a mute point by both parties as it should be.

The churning of the issue is a money maker by media spinners and the press machine.

While I reserve my right as a man to my right to free will and choice as I have spoken here, I also support another persons right to do so. But, in the situation of abortion, when on man possibly infringes on another living beings life or right to live, then I have to take a look at the bigger picture.

The abortion, and the steps leading up to that point are after the fact. The bigger issue is how to reduce the number of incidents that mature to that point. Abortion aside, I think we can all agree that not having to be put in the position at all is a more desired state.

Peace



[edit on 3-8-2008 by HIFIGUY]

I hate this whole argument, so I will try to be as mild as I can be by pointing out a few things from an objective standpoint.


1) The viewpoint that says when life begins is false, regardless of when that line is. It's wrong on both sides because, much like religion, we can not ever figure it out or answer the question, only find what is convenient to us.

2) I am Pro-Life and am tired of the religion getting tossed in with every abortion discussion. I am not religious at all, so.

Christians - Stop bringing illogical things into logical discussions please (I say this to help you really). It really doesn't help your case any more than if I were to support abortion because Shiva says it's kosher (an example only). Since you don't believe in Hindu, I doubt it would mean snot to you.

Pro-Choicers - While I disagree with you, I have to tell you that there are a number of arguments that simply don't make much sense.

One of the worst is the "I hate when people force their morals on other people." The reality is that government is force. As such, force is employed to apply morals on others. This argument doesn't help your cause since it could as easily be said that a prospective mother is forcing her moral code on a fetus, without it's consent or knowledge.

I know the comparison is poor, but it's equally as poor when used either way so it helped to have as feeble a usage.

3) Hypotheticals are useless. Lots of space filled with pleasant emptiness.

Enjoy,
KJ

I think if you want to convince woman not to have abortions, you have to erase the factors that make them feel that they need them in the first place.

In a large way, that does rest on the shoulders of TPTB, since they are the ones making the policies.

First and foremost it means taking away the stigma surrounding the use of birth control and a thorought, honest sexual education. Let's view sex as a natural biological urge, and react to it as such.

Secondly it means changing the way that MSM media portrays sex and removing the taboo of portraying it honestl instead of as a cheap thrill. While we don't all have to be nuns, portraying sex as more than a quick pleasure, as something with potentially endless consequences to one's life and health, would help immensely.

Thirdly it means somehow providing aid for the impoverished mothers who feel that they have to abort because they can't provide for the child, how exactly to implement this will differ according to your political views.

Above all, it would take a return to personal responsibility.

leave these people alone its there choice it has nothing to do with any of you and no one should be able to tell some one else what they can or can not do with there body,some of these people will have to live with this guilt for the rest of there life and they sure as hell dont need you lot pointing the finger

Who is the real killer in abortion? I'd say the doctor, if indeed terminating a pregnancy makes you a "killer." After all, he's the one who performs the act. (I'm big on personal accountability.)

Is abortion moral/ethical? Well that all depends on your morals and ethics. Some people believe it is immoral, some don't. Then again, some people believe working on Saturday is immoral. Should we also ban laboring on saturday?

I think you can safely toss out morals and ethics, when speaking of laws, because they are all arbitrary, and they are all, intrinsically, authoritarian in nature.

This means we have to approach the question of abortion logically, and in the framework of the constitution and the law. Sadly, im not a lawyer, so I can't comment. It is my understanding, though, that fetuses are not considered humans, so they should not be treated as such. So what's wrong with abortion?

I know plenty of people that should have been aborted, and the really sad part is that they know it too.

I blame the politicians for allowing conditions to get so bad in this country, that a woman of little means doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of raising their child successfully on their own. Either the woman will become another welfare case, or will suck the lifeblood dry from some poor guy until he doesn't have two pennies left to rub together and winds up in jail for it.

Unless a woman has the means to raise a child, they should never allow themselves to get pregnant in the first place.

EDIT to add: In the end, the sad truth is that the woman is the murderer, as she is the only one who can make the decision.

[edit on 8/4/0808 by jackinthebox]

Originally posted by HIFIGUY
The abortion issue, and whether it is legal or not is after the fact, for anyone pondering the murder of a child is guilty of the death of that child. Don't blame Washington, for they are merely a shadow of America.
[edit on 3-8-2008 by HIFIGUY]

So blame the woman and the society we live in eh? Why do you need to blame anyone at all? When it comes to this issue it's very simple: if you don't like abortion then DON'T HAVE ONE.

Also: the concept that roe vs wade being reversed is absolutely silly. This will never happen...get over it, move on, there are more important things to worry about.

Originally posted by Kaytagg

This means we have to approach the question of abortion logically, and in the framework of the constitution and the law. Sadly, im not a lawyer, so I can't comment. It is my understanding, though, that fetuses are not considered humans, so they should not be treated as such. So what's wrong with abortion?

Actually in the state of Kansas a fetus is considered a human. Missouri too I believe. There are many instances were a person who kills a pregnant woman gets charged with two murders. Case in point, Scott Peterson who killed his pregnant wife.

It's not really about morals I suppose, ,maybe it's more about humanity, but in reality, if you see a being inside of your body on a sonogram, with a heartbeat, what kind of person must you be to say, yeah sure go ahead and suck it out of me with a vacumm and send it down the sink drain?

Of course it's murder, how could it be anything else. I mean lets call it what it is, your extinguishing the life of a living, feeding human being. I don't get it, because it's in the beginning stages of development means what exactly, that it's not alive? It is totally dependent on the nutrients and life force you have to offer for survival and you can take that from them? Well, that is fine for you. But this poor soul doesn't get no say it. My gf would of had a brother Two years older than her if her parents hadn't had the bright idea to kill him, ofcourse they are good people but even when they have told me about it they have so much shame.


Law that classifies MURDER OF AN UNBORN CHILD IN THE FIRST DEGREE.
(1) causes the death of an unborn child with premeditation and with intent to effect the death
of the unborn child or of another.

Lets see, unborn child....check. Premeditation....check. Intent to cause death...check. Yeah your murderers. Tough cookie, thats life, live with it but stop justifying it.

Call me ignorant and dumb and bla bla bla. I know who is really ignorant, so it don't bother me.

[edit on 4-8-2008 by Sheeper]

reply to post by Sheeper


I don't know if your post is serious or if you’re being sarcastic because of your ironic user name but do you think people who have miscarriages should be held accountable if it was reasonably preventable?

Should it be illegal for pregnant woman to act in a way that is dangerous to the fetus?

reply to post by Jezus


Ofcourse that is more like 3rd degree murder or manslaughter. But there are actually laws that can be brought against women that knowingly danger their unborn children and cause still borns. BTW I wasn't being sarcastic just overly harsh. But if they didn't know they were pregnant and caused a miscarriage it would not be their fault or just a random miscarriage due to problems at no fault of their own ofcourse it's not their fault either.