Sea Sheppard Captain shot by Japanese Whalers

Fyi, animals have always been food and always will be. You can choose your own way and eat hay, but stay the heck out of my choices.
Besides promoting the thought that it's ok to kill other people isn't cool. That's murder and against the sites T/C.

Just so everyone knows what is truly going on...

The Sea Sheppard and other ships that harass the whalers have at a minimum 3-4 people with high end (probably HD) video cameras stationed at different points along their ship. You can see this clearly from the many pictures the Japanese have released.

They try to provoke the Japanese to do something that can get caught on tape. They throw acid, paint, chemicals.. they ram, throw rocks.. and the second they get something thats the only video you will see


The fact that we have yet to have anything caught on tape should tell you volumes about who is in the "right" here.
And in this particular case, they would certainly have video of someone shooting at them.. this is case closed.

I am no fan of whaling but I am an even bigger non fan of people trying to impose their will on others this way.

Originally posted by PsykoOps
Fyi, animals have always been food and always will be. You can choose your own way and eat hay, but stay the heck out of my choices.
Besides promoting the thought that it's ok to kill other people isn't cool. That's murder and against the sites T/C.

But humans are animals, and humans have been food for humans, so what is the problem?
Let's try and stop the Finnish from whaling too. Or are they going to claim cultural heritage? Why, then, don't they rape and pillage more often, as that's their cultural heritage too
If so, then let them try that morally corrupt argument, but don't buy Finnish goods either (e.g. Nokia).

reply to post by AotearoaSon


Finland?! What do the finnitos have to do with whaling?




edit: does -> do

[edit on 2008/3/10 by Hellmutt]

These Japanese whalers are just trying to do their jobs. And they are constantly being harassed, and attacked with acid and what-not. The whalers are being terrorized! However, I find this story hard to believe. They want us to believe that the whalers shot at their Captain, and that he was saved by a bullet-proof vest? I don't buy it. I wish these "protesters" would find something better to do.

Well what this does highlight is that Sea Shepherd is only doing the Australian Government's job.

The Australian Courts issued an injunction against the Japanese whaling fleet to prevent their whaling but the Australian Government will not enforce it.

The Japanese have not produced any forensic evidence of acid being thrown. That was a hysterical claim made when they seized boarders. A claim they then dropped.

Of course the Sea Shepherd is taunting the whalers. The whalers are equally offensive in breeching Australian law in Australian territorial waters, which Australia by International treaty is legally recognised as being responsible for.

Greenpeace and the Aussie Government look like the biggest bunch of backsliding poofters out of all this.

Yeah exactly, we dont even have whales here. It's norwegians who do whaling. And when I said earlier that I'm gonna check if there is whale meat sold here I meant imported from some place.

Finland?! What do the finnitos have to do with whaling?

Actually doesn't Japan claim cultural and historical rights for whaling ?
Sure their excuse for this cull is scientific research, but at the back of it Japan insists they have a cultural right to continue whaling.

Please can anybody tell me what cultural history Japan has in Antarctic waters ?

Originally posted by sy.gunson

Finland?! What do the finnitos have to do with whaling?

Actually doesn't Japan claim cultural and historical rights for whaling ?
Sure their excuse for this cull is scientific research, but at the back of it Japan insists they have a cultural right to continue whaling.

Please can anybody tell me what cultural history Japan has in Antarctic waters ?

pic n mix cultural heritage...let's go back to foot binding then eh?

Actually doesn't Japan claim cultural and historical rights for whaling ?
Sure their excuse for this cull is scientific research, but at the back of it Japan insists they have a cultural right to continue whaling.

Please can anybody tell me what cultural history Japan has in Antarctic waters ?


Japan only began large scale whaling after WW2 when it was introduced by General Douglas MacCarthur as a way of sourcing protein for a defeated and disgraced nation.
Their whale hunting is no more traditional and part of their culture than baseball and vending machines.
Some very isolated communities in Feudal japan whaled from hand rowed boats using hand thrown harpoons. It was never a cultural tradition for Japan as a whole as is deceitfully claimed today.

Australia has a cultural tradition of whale eating that stretches back in time to as much as 25,000 years, dwarfing Japan's history. East coast Australian aboriginal people regularly consumed whale and had cultural rituals of sharing, thanking the whales, bathing in oil from the whales and even curing arthritis from imersing themselves in the whale carcass. Early european explorers visiting tribes on the East coast were offered whale meat and blubber as food gifts.
Australian aboriginals also made up whaling crews in 19th century whaling operations and so Australian cultural traditions of whale consumption are far more powerful, deep and long held than those of Japan.
However, Australians have had the maturity to move on from anachronistic and cruel activities such as this.

If the tiny isolated Japanese communities wish to conduct cultural traditional whaling then let them row their oared rowboats to Antarctica from Japan and take on whales with hand held harpoons.

However, how dare anyone travel to the opposite end of the earth in massive steel ships bristling with canon and pretend they are engaging in a cultural tradition!
The deceitfulness of this and those who try to defend it is breathtaking.
The small group of tattooed criminals who conduct the whale poaching bring total shame on the whole nation of Japan.
The message they present to the world is very strong. The strong implication is that Japan as a nation feels no remorse at telling lies and deception. It feels nothing for the cruelty and violence inflicted on sentient creatures, firing explosive bombs into their bodies and letting them suffocate and die in agony over periods of 20 minutes or more.
In fact some shadenfreude seems to be at work.
It cares nothing of the wishes of other nations nor cares about their national boundaries. It is happy to force feed its own children mercury contaminated flesh from dolphins, orcas, humpbacks, fin whales, blue whales, sei whales and southern right whales, the dna of which has been identified from samples found in Japanese fish markets.
Is this really the message Japan wishes to present to the world?
That it is a nation of cruel liars?


Australia has genuine scientists who conduct legitimate cetacean research and publish peer reviewed papers and attend and present at international cetacean science symposiums rather than yakusa pretending to conduct research and learning no valid information that could not be acquired more easily and effectively through non-lethal techniques.


Is everyone here actually aware that the acidity of the rancid butter thrown onto the decks of the whaling ships is less than that of orange juice or vinegar?
Orange juice contains citric acid and vinegar contains acetic acid.
Imaging the howls of derision if orange juice had been thrown and the yakusa whalers had claimed a chemical acid attack.
However, ignorance of chemistry seems to serve the yakusa well as many posters and the Japanese sponsored PR employees posting here have fallen for the deceit of "acid attack".
Sorry folks, but butyric acid is naturally occuring component of spoilt butter and less dangerous than orange juice or vinegar. It just smells worse.




[edit on 11-3-2008 by Grommo]

The independant film crew from Animal Planet network who were aboard the "Steve Irwin" seem to be in possession of extraordinary video evidence that is being rushed back to Federal Police in Australia.

Evidence used in a murder or attempted murder court case is usually prevented from immediately being made public.

The captain of the Nisshin Maru has publicly stated that he would not stop at killing humans who obstruct his poaching operation.

It will be interesting to see how far the inevitable attempted murder court cases go up the chain of command and whether ultra nationalist government ministers will also be implicated.

BTW, someone earlier mentioned Steve Irwin's name being used on the ship. This was the wish of Steve Irwin and his Family who strongly support the ethics and methods of Sea Shepherd. His widow Terri Irwin was present in Melbourne at the renaming ceremony.

[edit on 11-3-2008 by Grommo]

Doesn't matter what they throw, it's still an assault and you have no way of knowing what they are throwing. If there was a shooting then it was very much justified.

No, it's only an assault if you throw something at someone!
As the video evidence can show, none of the butter was thrown in the direction of any person.

That is not the point of the exercise. The idea is to distribute the liquid over the deck to cover a large surface area and maximise the evaporation.
Methyl Cellulose was also thrown which is an edible food additive that thickens pies , is used to make kids' "slime". It is part of the "horrific chemical attack" but in reality was intended to make the deck slippery for the poachers.


Your attempt to twist or "spin" the actions of the Seashepherd crew into being the bad guys is rather transparent and pathetic.


The Japanese poachers are targeting endangered fin whales and they wanted to target endangered Humpback whales and specifically announced that they would not hesitate in killing Migaloo just out of spite.

They are defying an instruction from the IWC not to whale in the southern ocean sanctuary. They are defying an Australian high court order not to whale in Australian sovereign territory and have armed military personnel on board the poaching ships in contravention of the international Antarctic convention .
They are conducting a commercial poaching operation and pretending it is research.
They are trying to force the dangerous mercury contaminated meat onto an ignorant and unsuspecting population.

And you condone the attempted murder of someone who is trying to protect wildlife and uphold the Un charter for Nature.
I've reread your post: You just admitted that you condone Murder and attempted murder.
Mate have a good hard look at yourself.
Are you willing to publicly state here that you condone the force feeding of children mercury contaminated meat too?

I'll repeat, you have condoned the attempted murder of a human being.

And you try to present the conservationists as the bad guys.




The UN World Charter for Nature states:

21. States and, to the extent they are able, other public authorities, international organizations, individuals, groups and corporations shall:

(e) Safeguard and conserve nature in areas beyond national jurisdiction.

www.un.org...

Originally posted by Hellmutt
reply to post by AotearoaSon

 

Finland?! What do the finnitos have to do with whaling?

Guilt by association, I guess. It's like in that other other anti-whaling thread where someone advocated nuking all of Asia because Japan is involved in whaling :shk:

reply to post by Grommo


I condone using force to defend those who you are responsible for when known terrorist start hurling stuff at you. You cant be sure what they are using. That's not murder. If someone were to die it would be suicide by the terrorist who knowingly endanger themselves and the crew of the whaling ship.

[Edit] And there you go again with that word endangered, that's just bunk.

[edit on 11/3/2008 by PsykoOps]

Originally posted by Grommo



Japan only began large scale whaling after WW2 when it was introduced by General Douglas MacCarthur as a way of sourcing protein for a defeated and disgraced nation.
Their whale hunting is no more traditional and part of their culture than baseball and vending machines.

An interesting combination of statements. Large scale commercial whaling (commonly referred to as the "Norwegian Method" has it`s origins in the 19th century - and was adopted by Japan at about the same time as the rest of the world. Furthermore, regarding the statement regarding the post WW2 introduction, I refer you to the Washington Convention of 1946, which in fact limited the catch for Japan - the logical conclusion of that information is that Japan must have been engaged in large scale whaling operations prior to signing the convention.

Baseball and vending machines... an odd strawman, but if you`ve ever been to a ball game in Osaka, you`d know that it`s a decidedly different animal to American baseball, with the exception of Boston and New York. It`s part of the culture. It may not be indigenous, but it is now inseperable. Likewise, to whatever extent, vending machines.

Some very isolated communities in Feudal japan whaled from hand rowed boats using hand thrown harpoons. It was never a cultural tradition for Japan as a whole as is deceitfully claimed today.

Actually, harpoon whaling consititues a relatively short period of Japan`s whaling tradition - as it does in the rest of the world. For the longest period of time (10,000 BC - 300BC) whaling centred on beached whales - although there is a bit of archaeological evidence to suggest an amount of harpoon use. The method you describe only entres the scene around the 15th century. For the most part, until the 19th century, whaling was done with a combination of net, harpoon, and rowed boat - until the availability of the steam ship. ( source

Australia has a cultural tradition of whale eating that stretches back in time to as much as 25,000 years, dwarfing Japan's history. East coast Australian aboriginal people regularly consumed whale and had cultural rituals of sharing, thanking the whales, bathing in oil from the whales and even curing arthritis from immersing themselves in the whale carcass. Early European explorers visiting tribes on the East coast were offered whale meat and blubber as food gifts.
Australian aboriginals also made up whaling crews in 19th century whaling operations and so Australian cultural traditions of whale consumption are far more powerful, deep and long held than those of Japan.
However, Australians have had the maturity to move on from anachronistic and cruel activities such as this.

A very interesting commentary.

I`ve provided you with a few links, and a bit of background reading. I wonder if you`d return the favor by providing any kind of information showing that Australian Aboriginal peoples abandoned this tradition by their own choice?

It seems to me, that whenever I read up on Australian Aboriginal culture, there`s a common theme that comes up: White Australia dictating to the Aboriginal population what elements of their cultural history should be preserved, and which ones should be abandoned because they offend some element of Western European thinking.

Is this the exception to the rule, as far as Australia`s internal ethnocentrism is concerned?

The message they present to the world is very strong. The strong implication is that Japan as a nation feels no remorse at telling lies and deception. It feels nothing for the cruelty and violence inflicted ....

And the message you send - And Australia is sending - is equally strong. By classifying this in terms of barbarisim, by shrouding the debate in baseless accusation (eg: that the industry is dominated by Yakusa), and propaganda terms such as "it feels nothing for the cruelty" (as though Australians weep for every burger they consume), you tell the world that you will stoop to any level to forbid activities you disagree with, regardless of their legality, anywhere in the world. You have gone past making a valid claim to conservation, and have gone into rabid propaganda. And the lies you`re telling don`t add up. They`re heresay, read on message boards and environmentalist tracts and repeated as fact.

And furthermore:

and the Japanese sponsored PR employees posting here have fallen for the deceit

You`re paranoid if you think that everyone on the internet with a contrary opinion to yours is on the Japanese payroll. Seriously.

Thank you for admitting that whale consumption in Japan on a large scale is a recent phenomenon and that examples of whale consumption prior to the twentieth century were isolated and restricted to isolated communities and accidental strandings. (As was typically the case for Australian aboriginal coastal communities.)
South east coast aboriginal tribes such as the Thaua and Weecon tribes of the Yuin nation were also active hunters and co-operated with europeans in shore based whaling. All-Aboriginal crews were common in the period of 1840 untill 1930, when shore based rowboat whaling ceased on the East coast.
The aboriginal crews refused to participate in motorised whaling boats or use canon or bomb gun .

Japanese propaganda has tried to suggest that whale consumption is a deeply felt long standing cultural tradition in Japan with the implication that Japanese culture will somehow collapse unless it can continue these traditions. As I have pointed out, Australia has an equally long cultural tradition of whaling and whale consumption just as legitimate as Japan's yet we are under no delusions that our cultural identity is under threat if we can't kill whales on the other side of the earth.

Large scale whale consumption in Japan is less than 100 years old and not much older than baseball. You state that now Baseball is an inseperable part of Japanese culture, as are vending machines. What about Tamogotchi? Where do you draw the line about what is an essential part of your culture that is above reproach or seperation? Is the Hollywood rejection of HD DVD format an attack on japanese culture?
What about seppuku? Is criticism of seppuku a racist attack on Japanese culture? Is it something that Japan has been able to live without, without collapsing?
You reference 10,000 years of aboriginal whale consumption and I assume by implication refer to the Jomon people. Are there living practitioners of this ancient culture in Japan who can perhaps recite their oral history of whales?
The Thaua people are still eyewitnesses to their last whaling exploits and can recite an oral history of the last ice ages and hunting for wallaby under the shadow of what are now distant offshore islands. Rock carvings of whaling rituals have been dated to 25,000+ years and match in pictorial content the oral history traditions of living people.

You equate the cruelty of whaling where whales often take 30 minutes to die in agony as being equivalent to eating hamburgers.
Are you serious? To compare the rapidity of death of farmed cattle in an abatoir to the extended agony of a whales death after an explosive harpoon has detonated inside its body, rupturing its internal organs yet rarely killing it shows complete inability to appreciate the cruelty involved in whaling.

Do you actually appreciate that for a sentient creature to suffer extremely agonising injuries and to slowly and painfully die over a long period of time whilst it attempts to swim away for its life is actually cruel?

I would really like if you can answer that.
Do you require me to provide a link to what cruelty means?

Do you deny the seamen's union is dominated by yakusa?
Do you deny that the dna of protected whales which matches that of Antarctic communities and not accidental stranded whales has been identified in japanese fish markets.
Do you think it is safe to consume methyl mercury at the levels that are found in whale and dolphin meat?
Do you tell your kids it is good for them?

I implied some posters may be sponsored by PR agencies, not all. Don't take the dishonest approach and claim I said "all' who disagree with whaling are on a PR payrol when it was not specified at all.
It is exactly this sort of deceitfulness I am protesting about yet you seem so ready to use.

You said "you tell the world that you will stoop to any level to forbid activities you disagree with, regardless of their legality,"

The lady doth protest too much, methinks.



[edit on 12-3-2008 by Grommo]

I may also point out, in reference to "burgers", a common rebuttal levelled at anti-whaling commentators, that farmers and abatoir workers are making no deceitful pretence that they are undertaking "scientific research".

There is no deviousness and deceit being carried out by the cattle folk, however one may feel towards the ethics of eating other creatures or whether one is Hindu.
They quite honestly make it common knowledge that they are carrying out a commercial activity.

The whalers however are a different matter.

They pretend it is science and not a commercial activity for profit.

Are mountain Gorillas or Pandas studied in this way? Kill them, chop them up as quickly as possible and eat them and not publish research in peer reviewed scientific journals.
Of course not! because we all know that would be poaching rather than research.

And what level of contempt would be deserved by anyone who would attempt to perpetrate such deceit?


Dianne Fossey was murdered for trying to protect the Mountain Gorillas from poachers.
Paul Watson fortunately had a bullet proof vest.

Someone earlier labelled him a terrorist. That's Funny!
Someone who has never killed or injured anyone in 20+ years of protest and has striven to defend and protect the lives of countless creatures is labled a terrorist !
What are you smoking? It must be expensive!

So typical of the BS spin from the whalers' camp. The people who slaughter protected species for profit in cruel, inhumane ways and force the toxic byproducts onto their own children are the good guys, and those who strive to uphold international conservation laws and agreements are the bad guys......... riiiiiiight.........

And what about the dolphin drives of Taiji that I have alluded to. All good traditional fun right? A proud cultural tradition that would be perfect to use in a tourism campaign. Like in the Faroe islands.
The people can't possibly change their dolphin killing and fishing professions, because that would mean... gasp... horror... changing jobs! We can't possibly allow any ethical or technical progress in the world because somebody might lose their jobs!

And the four fin dolphin caught in one of the dolphin slaughter drives, which had all of its immediate family butchered to make mercury laden kids lunches. The institute for cetacean research has surely been hard at work studying such a significant scientific find right? We've all seen the xrays or ultrasounds from this significant discovery that is so relevant to modern controversy over evolution. Haven't we? You guess the answer.



Paul Watson and sea life defenders have been set upon by greedy thugs with clubs, and have had Japanese ships deliberately ram their protest vessel and those of other protest organisations upholding the UN Charter for nature.
These altercations have been thoroughly investigated by AFP and Lloyds shipping. In every instance in the last 10 years, the Japanese and not the protestors were the aggressors and at fault in collision events. This is recorded in the Lloyds database and Australian federal police files.




[edit on 12-3-2008 by Grommo]

reply to post by Grommo


OK, one more on this one. Apologies to anyone who is checking this thread every time it gets bumped for more information on the fate of the Sea Shepherd Captain.

I`ve been scouting around for details on Australian Aboriginal Whaling pre-colonialization, and I`m not having a huge amount of luck. The info I`m finding is fairly sketchy, (centring on the region you mentioned).

It seems to contradict itself a bit in places - for example, the environment ministry says pretty clearly that there was no whaling before European contact. The NSW environment ministry makes a brief mention, stating "Aboriginal people lured them onto the beaches using fires, and commonly made feasts of stranded whales.". The same info is repeated on a few other websites I came across.

The earliest report I`ve come across is from 1797 - found deep in this interview. Makes reference to an interesting anecdote concerning Matthew Flinders exchanging an old hunk of ship`s biscuit for a chunk of whale blubber. However, the original source is less than clear on matters (the incident in question is repeated about 3/4 the way town). There`s a lot of information about whaling and sealing there, but all of it is European. Everything I`m seeing on Aboriginal Whaling seems to begin around 1830 - except on the website of this killer whale museum in Eden.

If you can point me in another direction to back up what you`re saying, I`d appreciate it. There`s a lot of variation in the spelling of Aboriginal group names, so I may well be missing what you`d consider the obvious.

The rheumatism claim you mentioned in the previous post has been traced to here: an 1894 reprint from the pall mall gazette. The original story chalks it up to "A gentleman of convivial habits" "[taking] the plunge into a whale carcass" and emerging both sober and cured of his rheumatism. I swear, I`m not making that up. Town of Eden. Twofold Bay. Davidson Whaling Station. No mention of it being an Aboriginal cure, and to be quite hones I`m not sure what to make of it at all.

Last, you had a few questions.

First off, and most important:

"Where do you draw the line about what is an essential part of your culture that is above reproach or seperation?"

In the case of the Japanese, and Japanese culture, I don`t feel I have that right. I`m not Japanese. I live here, I`ve lived here for many years, and I`ll continue to do so. Perhaps over time, I`ll feel I`ve earned the right to. But at this point, I don`t feel I have the right to dictate to the Japanese - or to anyone else, when all is said and done - what should be important to their culture and what shouldn`t be.

That`s the root of all this, at least the way I see it. Some Irish MP or other termed it "Cultural Imperialisim" a few years back - and quite frankly, I have a hard time seeing it another way. Australians, in a very very short period of time have had a moral upheval on the whaling issue. Up until, what, 1979 - it was an industry. Australia - and Australians - have had a change of heart, for a variety of reasons, on whales in general. The hard line approach that Australia and the Anti-Whaling nations have taken is effectively demanding that Japan follow their recently acquired moral and philosophical line. And that`s the root of the entire conflict at this point. The Japanese still see the whales as a resource.

On the other questions:

Do you deny the seamen's union is dominated by yakusa?

I`m not sure I can agree or disagree with that one. I don`t have enough information to go on. I can disagree if we`re talking about the ICR, which is the group that conducts research whaling (both lethal and non-lethal, by the way).

Do you deny that the dna of protected whales which matches that of Antarctic communities and not accidental stranded whales has been identified in japanese fish markets.

News to me. Need a reputable source, preferably a primary one, before commenting.

Do you think it is safe to consume methyl mercury at the levels that are found in whale and dolphin meat?

In the same way it`s safe to eat Tuna contaminated with same. Again, I`ve never seen (or looked for, mind you) data on those levels.

Do you tell your kids it is good for them?

Don`t have any.

On the last point - someone a few pages back seemed to be insinuating that someone here was on the PR firm payroll, based out of Hokkaido. As I`m the only one here with Hokkaido in their location bar, and the accusation came up again in your post, I made the assumption that you may have been talking about me. My bad.

I might point out that in African regions where poaching is illegal they will and have killed poachers, its no different here. In fact the only difference is there is no official rangers patrolling conservation areas and monitoring whaling ships, and those who do follow and stop whaling haven't actually killed anyone.

Why isnt anyone here who is for whaling, for poaching in Africa and other areas as well? There isnt much of a difference.

Originally posted by Grommo
No, it's only an assault if you throw something at someone!

grommo seriously?

so much of what you have said in this thread is just so fraught with inaccuracy it's frightening.