The Sorcery Conspiracy

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
Do you think there is a conspiracy to keep people doped up, On prescriptions - illegal drugs - or alcohol?

The only conspiracy is why this is not in R.A.T.S. like the thread Trypatamines & God.
Both threads are similar in that they are dealing with "herbs" and religion.

Originally I thought the above thread was moved to R.A.T.S. because it was stated they did not want the search engine to pick up certain words (name of 'herbs') which has been mentioned more than once here.

And the other reason was that people wanted to bring up their experiences, which I believe O.P. did by saying it made him lazy, etc. when using.

So it would seem that the only difference between this thread and the one mentioned above is that this one is trying to show that the Bible says Herbs is evil (which is twisting scripture completely, and I have pointed that out many times here...no need to anymore, one must read and see the Bible as a whole), and the other thread was showing how herbs WERE used by those very believers in the Bible.

And before I get some comment saying Im a christian that 'uses' - never did -
Then why write? Because people would benefit from knowledge we have grown up with enough wives tales. Remember the Salem witch trials? This is it all over again.

I will state it one last time for all those who are new for the thread.

Sorcery is manipulation - the tools are neither good nor bad and depend on how used.
And before someone says that some of these tools kill...Paul said "all things are permissible but not all things are beneficial".

I suppose this is my last comment as some of you have gotten what I tried to say, and others seem to like to believe something that contradicts itself when you look at it.

Again, for the newer ones, I brought up the point of '___'.
It naturally occurs in the brain, so are you illegal? You might be with how leaders treat you.

Now the O.P.. said that he is not getting high off his brain.
Point is either a chemical is evil or not...its not about the quantity.
And if its not evil, than the plant cannot be evil as being mentioned in the thread.

We need to look at this subject balance and as the thread Trypatamines and God was trying to. (again you now need R.A.T.S for that), and I would say that this thread belongs there now, or that one needs to be brought back to bring back some sanity to this subject. (or balance.)

Science is researching this stuff and using it to make synthetic versions like THC...yes you heard right. But instead of getting your stuff for free, you pay for it out of your insurance an arm and a leg.

And again, the O.P. said that it did not benefit them.
Again, as solomon said, "there is a time and a place for everything."

What is beneficial in medicine for one is not for another, same applies with plant kingdom. Infact, plants medicine and synths do not mix and cause complications...

Again, are the sorcerers using things to control people?
They may be using herbs and synths...this is not the point.
The point is to say that a blanket 'herbs are bad' without getting to the point does humanity a dis-service.

It does humanity a dis-service because they no longer see that which is true. They do not see the root of the matter. The root is the action and intent of the individual.
Instead they are on a witch hunt.

They dont see they are being controlled by the media, or even the food they eat. (Talk about out of control - look at Americas obese, and this abnormal obesity is spreading to Europe...The toxins in the fast foods are changing the Hungarian youth, who never suffered from the odd/unnatural/unhealthy over weight problem that has plagued the American youth ever since fast food was introduced into society.)

So a conspiracy in sorcery would be the media & toxins in the food that is dumbing down and fattening up the people and causing major health issues. That is a true conspiracy of control and sorcery.

If someone doesnt get this post, then they just dont want to understand. It has been said as clear as can be. We all have our own paths, and at this point we part ways and perhaps our paths will cross later in the journey.

Peace

dAlen

Originally posted by paxnatus
reply to post by RuneSpider

 

Actual a very good question. this is a website that should help:

bible.crosswalk.com...§ion=0&language_one=en&version_one=hnv&language_two=en&version_two=web&new=1&oq=sorcer y I do not believe sorcery is speaking of drug use at all. Pure and simple
magic, sacrifices, study of witchcraft, fortune telling etc. is what is meant by sorcery.

That's true too. Not all places in the bible where the english word sorcery is, is pertaining to medicines. The place where the OP is talking about particularly is in Revelation. Ok here is what the Strong's Concordance say's.
Strong's 5331
(3x's) the word pharmakeia is used where the english word sorcery (2x's) and witchcraft (1x) is placed in the english text of the KJV. It say's primarily pharmakeia signified the use of medicine, drugs, spells; then poisoning; then witchcraft (Gal 5:20; Rev 9:21; 18:23) In sorcery the use of drugs, whether simple or potent, was generally accompanied by incantations and appeals to occult powers, with the provision of various charms, amulets, etc..Professedly designed to keep the applicant or patient from the attention and power of devils, but actually to impress the applicant with the mysterious resources and powers of the sorcerer.

Now Strong's 5332
(1x) the word pharmakeus is used in (Rev 21:8) where the word sorcerers is used means this: a druggest (pharmacist) or poisoners, ie; magician-sorcerer!! Now I can understand the plea to come out of her my people!

So as you can see, there are less than five places where the word sorcery/sorcerer sit's in the bible, where it actually means medicine, pharmaceuticals and even pharmacist.

Now again, I'll repeat, I cannot say if there was an actual intent to hide the real meaning of this word, perhaps there wasn't a better word to use so that is why the translators used sorcery instead? I dare not accuse, there is one that accuse and I want no part of that. But look at it this way, Paul say's by the Holy Spirit: ( 2 Corinth 4:6)
For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. So everything that is hidden is rest assured to be revealed by His light, the TRUE light. He shines His light upon all the dark places and reveals the truth therein.

just a couple of points. the books of the hebrew and christian scriptures were written over a long time period by many people and reflect the cultures in which they were written. as a christian i still cant agree that prayer and people of faith have kept the power of evil from overwhelming the world. there are too many examples not only in world history but in the history of christianity when people of faith were too busy finding new and more painful ways to kill each other for that to be true. i think if we are to resist the evil in this world we might begin by reading the simple words of the guy who started it all starting with "blessed ara you who are poor for yours is the kingdom of heaven" (luke 6:20b)

reply to post by Bigwhammy


Big I really appreciate your views. However, I believe sorcery is referring to magic, fortune telling, study of witchcraft etc. I posted a website earlier that helps make the distinction.

I am a Christian and I do take issue with a few things you have said.
Drug addiction is just that a disease. Sure you may say a disease of the spirit but I am talking about chemical dependency. No one wakes up in the morning saying" today I think I will be a drug addict".

As far as the Holy Spirit leaving your body when you have a glass of wine, or take an antidepressant this is not so. Once the Spirit dwells in you nothing can snatch you from His hand. A demon cannot possess the body i.e. spirit of a Christian. As evidenced by John 10:27-28. " My sheep listen
to my voice; I know them and they follow me. I give them eternal life,and
they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

reply to post by paxnatus


The other question I have for you Big, is who did Jesus die for? Just the saints? Of course not he died for the sinners. That means every single one of us. The prostitutes, the tax collectors, the thieves, liars, murderers(sp.)
cheats and even the drug users. that is the wonderful thing about His free
gift to us. Grace, nothing you can say or do can cost you your salvation.
It is not by works we are saved but by grace.

I hope I'm not insulting you. I'm not actually telling you about your
own salvation. That was never called into question. This is for anyone
who is searching for truth.

reply to post by dAlen

I will state it one last time for all those who are new for the thread.

Sorcery is manipulation - the tools are neither good nor bad and depend on how used.
And before someone says that some of these tools kill...Paul said "all things are permissible but not all things are beneficial".

You know I just spent the last hour searching for that verse! I could not recall that verse at all. Well now I found it in the NIV and I only use the KJV. No biggie, but here is the same verse via KJ: (1 Corinth 6:12) All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient (helpful): all things are lawful unto me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. Also (1 Corinth 10:23) All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not ( do not build up)

Whew! Now THAT is almost nothing like the NIV! I'm not getting into it with anyone about versions, but that's quite spooky IMO. Good post though dAlen, otherwise.


[edit on 4-3-2008 by Elisha4Yah]

reply to post by Bigwhammy


While you are doing the Godly thing, are you doing it in love? You are beginning to sound very legalistic. The problem with that is,legalism
is behavioral based living. Where's the grace? And what exactly do you mean by "I hope the forgiveness of the cross goes futher than some say"

What is your experience with evangelism?

Well alrighty then...

I suppose anything the causes one to see double-triplicate, pink elephants, cause ones head to spin from it's socket, or engage in conversation with a being from the nether-world, may very well be not of benefit to ones well being. Considering that the being from the nether-world may very well, in any number of ways, seize control of your mind, since "you" are'nt. Be it even through the masterful art of deception.

In other words, it may be in ones' best interest to remain in control of their mind, at all times, to the best of their ability.

"Weed"??, to a degree, in my opinion?? May be an exception. I can understand if you disagree. Im new here, perhaps that topic is taboo(?). The 7 part youtube video "run from the cure" is of the very best i have seen in rationally/humbly expressing the medicinal benifits.

Anywayyy,,while briefly living in a church, the pasture one day explained with great pride he had "finally found the real thing", "frankincense", and began walking about the church with a smal metal [something] burning this incense. The fragrance was quite strong/ pleasant, was'nt but a short time latter i was feeling quite "uplifted" so to speak.

ps, is anyone familiar with "real" frankincense? to this day i have wondered if it was just my imagination, (the effect).

reply to post by Elisha4Yah

You're saying that everything is natural, so what do you consider as un-natural?

Nothing, obviously.

Just because something is taken from nature does not mean it is natural...

Human beings are a part of nature. Therefore everything we do and make is natural. Quorn is part of nature. The internet is part of nature. Communism is part of nature. Art and science are natural. Homosexuality is natural of course, but so are all other forms of sexual attraction, even the ones society justly reviles and prohibits, such as incest and paedophilia. Anything you could possibly imagine is a part of nature, and is therefore natural -- precisely because you can imagine it.

Man was suppose to be "keepers" or stewards over nature or this planet...

''Cos the Bible tells me so', eh? Well, the Bible is not an authority on ecology, economics or moral philosophy -- it is, in fact, an authority on nothing. Homo sapiens is just another species on this planet, with no special responsibility or mandate.

I wonder what would be of us today had all of the prophets or even some (Isaiah, Daniel, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Enoch, Elijah....etc etc...) told by 'medical professionals' to take anti-depressents or something along those lines??

The prophets were undoubtedly blitzed to the eyeballs with naturally-occurring psychotropics and hallucinogenics: alcohol, cannabis, opium, and qat, all of which were popular in the ancient Middle East and remain so there today. See my other post on Page 13.

What I can't understand is this; a person who say's they don't believe the bible because it was written by men, yet they'll place their whole life in the palm of a doctors hand.

You find it hard to understand why someone who rejects the 'authority' of this anthology of hallucinatory, morally-repugnant, scientifically untenable drivel is willing to accept the advice of a physician armed with the fruits of thousands of years of medical advances and the tools of modern science? Please accept my commiserations.

By the way, the lady in your avatar has confessed to a gigantic hole in her nasal septum. I imagine you can guess how it got there. If one cannot be right, one should at least aim to be consistent.

[edit on 4-3-2008 by Astyanax]

nice talk.

why do we need drugs?

let just stay in the most common example of all:
at a party you find hard to entertain without drinking a beer or martini (i prefer vodka). true?
did you ever tried raveing without any drug? i did. it was the most eerie stuff that i ever done. 10 times harder 10 times more fun.

what drugs usually do is limiting your senses to a certain sensation witch is usually defined by yr subconscious. if you see a faint spot in a totally dark room that week brightness appears to you as a lighthouse.
if you dont take them the spot appears just as bright as the room itself. an if you dont drink that vodka, well ... you have to make it shine even harder.


my question is witch spot shines the most? if you take your reference both shine the same (ie. same contrast), but to the outside the clear one. you effectively strengthen a part of your psyche without weakening the rest. you remain full and complete, or even better.

and the best part of all is that YOU select the spot to shine.

in fact this is based on ancient knowledge (meditation), nearly no one can use it to its full potential, that why it is so hard to fall in trance without any "help".

imagine if you could control how you feel about things and people?

and herein lies the real free will, raw and uncorrupted

Originally posted by Elisha4Yah
Whew! Now THAT is almost nothing like the NIV! I'm not getting into it with anyone about versions, but that's quite spooky IMO. Good post though dAlen, otherwise.


[edit on 4-3-2008 by Elisha4Yah]

I used the NAS exclusively in Bible College, (KJV as a kid when I went to Christian school) and NAS & NIV afterwards. (When I was a missionary, etc.)

Anyway, I only see that you quoted the KJ not the NIV. -
Unless you were referring to my post. I only paraphrase...maybe Im a walking NIV!

Essentially the words are interchangeable as in a Thesaurus, and it carries the meaning equally in both quotes.

Words are too, like a tool, they are a means to an end. Well, even more...they are pointers. They point beyond themselves.

Words alone are not sufficient...a lot depends on how our mental grid system interprets the meaning of the words. And this interpretation depends greatly on our milieu.
Two people can read the same words and take away a different meaning.

To make things worse, go cross culture. I have lived in Hungary (In a city that is in the middle of nowhere) for some years now. No native English speakers, etc.

Language is funny, as even when interpreted correctly (and this almost always means not using word for word language in many examples) the full concept or feeling is not completely there. It gets lost.

Infact when you watch movies that are professionally translated, the best movies often replace the funny statements of the movie with something totally different. Because it just did not translate well. What is funny, how it is said, is lost in translation...literally. So they have to totally use something altogether different.

Many people dont see this, especially Americans who have not been immersed 100% in a culture. (Trust me I spent a couple of years in europe 10 years ago, and was working with an international group...and that is not a way to get into a culture.)

All that to say that semantics over a couple of words or how they are said is not the key point. The point is that the full meaning is conveyed and felt in whatever manner that person needs to properly understand it.

Again, lets not go as far as the example I gave. Lets look at relationships we have with people who we know. We are often misunderstood even using our own language. One has to be 'present'/aware to feel what that person is trying to say. (why are there so many arguments...its because of a lack of understanding, despite the language being use.)

I have to admit, I was not clear on what your post was actually saying, so my response was based on what I thought you were saying...which was that the versions arent saying the same thing???

Anyway...

Peace

dAlen

p.s. I wanted to add...I only paraphrase and give a reference of who said what, so that people can do what you did...go search for themselves.


[edit on 4-3-2008 by dAlen]

Originally posted by encoder

and herein lies the real free will, raw and uncorrupted

If I understand you correctly, then you could go on to say that one day we will be "light eaters"
Things go in stages...we have props until we no longer need them.
i.e., school, organized religion, etc.

Also, hello to a neighbor - I see you are just across the border from me.

Peace

dAlen

[edit on 4-3-2008 by dAlen]

Originally posted by dirtusbagious
Well alrighty then...
ps, is anyone familiar with "real" frankincense? to this day i have wondered if it was just my imagination, (the effect).

yeah...go to Wholefoods market and into their herb, whole body section.
You will find Frankincense. Its good stuff (a bit sticky though). I used to mix different oils for smell, and quite enjoyed it.

Peace

dAlen

Originally posted by dAlen

Originally posted by encoder

and herein lies the real free will, raw and uncorrupted

If I understand you correctly, then you could go on to say that one day we will be "light eaters"

Things go in stages...we have props until we no longer need them.
i.e., school, organized religion, etc.

Also, hello to a neighbor - I see you are just across the border from me.

Peace

dAlen

[edit on 4-3-2008 by dAlen]

in a fairly twisted way you are absolutely right, because the present ways are not the ways.


(by the way: my nationality is hungarian so szervusz szomszed )

Originally posted by encoder
in a fairly twisted way you are absolutely right, because the present ways are not the ways.

In what will twist even more minds is the fact that when you dont need anything, you can then play with life and enjoy things...just for their being.

Peace

dAlen

p.s. so your from transylvania?

reply to post by dAlen


(get ready !!! here it comes !! )

see? we are not so different from God afterall...

reply to post by paxnatus


If you go back and read carefully the last couple pages of the thread. I'm not re defining sorcery - you are missing the point. The words in the Revelation passage is pharmikia.

Pharmikia is mistranslated to sorcery - not the other way around.

I agree sorcery implies manipulation that word is the one in acts "mageuo"



[edit on 3/4/2008 by Bigwhammy]

Originally posted by paxnatus
reply to post by Bigwhammy

 

While you are doing the Godly thing, are you doing it in love? You are beginning to sound very legalistic. The problem with that is,legalism
is behavioral based living.

Well maybe so. Let me say I struggle with sin. However I don't think you can justify using drugs recreationally with the Bible, so I will argue against that.

Where's the grace?

I believe Jesus dies for our sins past present and future. Grace abounds. That does not give us an excuse to not be sober.

And what exactly do you mean by "I hope the forgiveness of the cross goes futher than some say"

I am not a believer in eternal torment in Hell. I believe there is judgment based on your position in Christ, but what I mean by that statement is I hope the opportunity for grace might extend beyond this lifetime.

What is your experience with evangelism?

I work work others. I am a musician at a large Church. I volunteer for a children's ministry at a housing project. I deliver groceries door to door to a State run retirement home. I play music in nursing homes for old folks who don't get many visitors. I make threads at ATS trying to engage people in discussions about the Bible.

Originally posted by dAlen

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
Do you think there is a conspiracy to keep people doped up, On prescriptions - illegal drugs - or alcohol?

The only conspiracy is why this is not in R.A.T.S. like the thread Trypatamines & God.
Both threads are similar in that they are dealing with "herbs" and religion.

Originally I thought the above thread was moved to R.A.T.S. because it was stated they did not want the search engine to pick up certain words (name of 'herbs') which has been mentioned more than once here.

And the other reason was that people wanted to bring up their experiences, which I believe O.P. did by saying it made him lazy, etc. when using.

So it would seem that the only difference between this thread and the one mentioned above is that this one is trying to show that the Bible says Herbs is evil (which is twisting scripture completely, and I have pointed that out many times here...no need to anymore, one must read and see the Bible as a whole), and the other thread was showing how herbs WERE used by those very believers in the Bible.

I am sorry if I have failed in my efforts to communicate what this thread is about. You seem to think it is about herb use, it is not. A subtopic maybe. It got derailed by folks trying to defend their drug use.

This thread is about the mistranslation of a the Greek word Pharmikia first and foremost. And the conspiracy to keep that teaching under wraps.

The constant derailment of the thread to the "herb use" topic points to that conspiracy as well.

I do not think use of all herbs are evil, you are twisting my words. I never said all drugs are evil. Only the way they are used. If you have followed the thread you will also have seen that my understanding has grown. We did find verses with "good drugs" and medicine in the Bible.

And before I get some comment saying Im a christian that 'uses' - never did -
Then why write? Because people would benefit from knowledge we have grown up with enough wives tales. Remember the Salem witch trials? This is it all over again.

I will state it one last time for all those who are new for the thread.

Sorcery is manipulation - the tools are neither good nor bad and depend on how used.
And before someone says that some of these tools kill...Paul said "all things are permissible but not all things are beneficial".

You are stuck on defining sorcery -- you have it backwards -- I know sorcery is manipulation.

Pharmikia is drug use not sorcery- that is the entire point- that keeps woooshing over your head.

Put the emphasis on "not all things are beneficial" to understand what Paul really meant.

I suppose this is my last comment as some of you have gotten what I tried to say, and others seem to like to believe something that contradicts itself when you look at it.

Again, for the newer ones, I brought up the point of '___'.
It naturally occurs in the brain, so are you illegal? You might be with how leaders treat you.

That lame '___' argument again ??? That's right I said lame! Oh please. here is naturally occurring sulphuric acid in my stomach. Does that mean I can drink all the battery acid I want without consequences?

Now the O.P.. said that he is not getting high off his brain.
Point is either a chemical is evil or not...its not about the quantity.
And if its not evil, than the plant cannot be evil as being mentioned in the thread.

A chemical can not be evil period. Again you are trying to put words in my mouth. It is the USE of the chemical that determines its moral status. There are verses in scripture with good uses of herbs and oils we pointed that out a few pages back to those who bothered to read the thread.

We need to look at this subject balance and as the thread Trypatamines and God was trying to. (again you now need R.A.T.S for that), and I would say that this thread belongs there now, or that one needs to be brought back to bring back some sanity to this subject. (or balance.)

Science is researching this stuff and using it to make synthetic versions like THC...yes you heard right. But instead of getting your stuff for free, you pay for it out of your insurance an arm and a leg.

And again, the O.P. said that it did not benefit them.
Again, as solomon said, "there is a time and a place for everything."

Solomon also died miserable worshiping demons. Because he fell into black magic.

1 Kings 11

4 As Solomon grew old, his wives turned his heart after other gods, and his heart was not fully devoted to the LORD his God, as the heart of David his father had been. 5 He followed Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, and Molech [a] the detestable god of the Ammonites. 6 So Solomon did evil in the eyes of the LORD; he did not follow the LORD completely, as David his father had done.

Solomon was too smart for his own good. hint hint

What is beneficial in medicine for one is not for another, same applies with plant kingdom. Infact, plants medicine and synths do not mix and cause complications...

Again, are the sorcerers using things to control people?
They may be using herbs and synths...this is not the point.
The point is to say that a blanket 'herbs are bad' without getting to the point does humanity a dis-service.

Again it has been said over and over not all drugs are bad. You missed th point of the thread. It is about the mistranslation of the Greek word Pharmikia.

It does humanity a dis-service because they no longer see that which is true. They do not see the root of the matter. The root is the action and intent of the individual.
Instead they are on a witch hunt.

They don't see they are being controlled by the media, or even the food they eat. (Talk about out of control - look at Americas obese, and this abnormal obesity is spreading to Europe...The toxins in the fast foods are changing the Hungarian youth, who never suffered from the odd/unnatural/unhealthy over weight problem that has plagued the American youth ever since fast food was introduced into society.)

So a conspiracy in sorcery would be the media & toxins in the food that is dumbing down and fattening up the people and causing major health issues. That is a true conspiracy of control and sorcery.

That is what we are talking about. The sorcerers are the one pushing the pharmaceuticals, drugs , toxins etc. sure...

If someone doesn't get this post, then they just dont want to understand. It has been said as clear as can be. We all have our own paths, and at this point we part ways and perhaps our paths will cross later in the journey.

I do get it. I think you have completely misunderstood the thread. It is about a mistranslation first, the use of recreational drugs as a subtopic. I never set said all herbs are bad or all dugs are bad. My comments about recreational use were only directed to people who try to live by the Bible.
I do not think you can scripturally justify getting high, period.

I did say a Christian who is trying to live by the Bible should know that we are asked to keep a sober mind; that's it. There is grace and we all fall short. But that doesn't mean you can take the genesis "seed bearing plants" account and use it to justify doing bong hits all day





[edit on 3/4/2008 by Bigwhammy]

I think that I fairly summed this thread up when I said that a "sorcerer" in ancient times was considered a pharmacist... It seems some of you are making bit a it more confusing than it is.

A "sorcerer" of ancient times had absolutely nothing to do with "communicating with spirits," et cetera. A "sorcerer" of ancient times would be someone who concocted "medicines" for the sick i.e a pharmacist.

Now, obviously, if you look at the market today, there are many medicines which will make you just as sick as the ailment that it claims to alleviate. That in and of itself speak volumes to those with open eyes.

[edit on 4-3-2008 by SpeakerofTruth]