New Abu Ghraib Images (WARNING: very disturbing)

Let's not get personal folks.

Originally posted by billybob
reply to post by jerico65

 

yes. i have a hypothetical question.
if your brother murders my brother, is it okay for me to murder you?
i ask because, you seem to have a twisted view of morality and 'logic'.

Yeah, it's twisted in the sense that thay have no firm standards for moral conduct. They have double and tripple standards, and that suits them fine.

reply to post by intrepid


Nah, it's ok, Intrepid. If you post anything pro-military, you have to come to expect this.

Twisted logic? Hopping foot to foot when cornered? Nope, not me. I have a pretty good idea of right and wrong on the battlefield, having been on several. How about anyone else posting here?

US military personnel are briefed on LOAC, Laws of Armed Conflict. Give google a try and they will break it down for you.

To sum it up for this thread, it states that US military personnel will NOT torture POWs. They are to be protected while in our custody.

In this case, they weren't. I don't think they were tortured, but they were abused. The Soldiers that were responsible were tried and convicted and are now finding out what it's like to play, "Drop the Soap" in a Military Correctional Facility.

Now, this is what gets me spun up. There are four US Soldiers that have been captured in Iraq, one since 2004. In the last incident, three were captured and one body was recovered that the Iraqis said looked to have been tortured and executed.

When people here talk of torture, this is never brought up. That's what chaps my ass.

i find it sad and funny,that people will defend and cry over these scumbag prisoners.these are the same type of people that hate your amercians guts and wanna slit your throat.may youll should go over there and maybe hold thier hand and let them talk about thier feelings.this liberal crap like this is why america is in ruins.if it was up to me id bomb the whole middle east into a parking lot.where is all the out cry from you people when you see some americans getting his throat slit?.you care more about the animal than you do a human.so keep in mind if you hate america and the goverment so bad,go to some 3rd world country and see how you like it,try you free speech and so called made up freedom of expression over there and see how long youll last.true america is all messed up but its no place id rather be

reply to post by asublimeguy27


Actually there is no evidence to support that. Alot of these people were political prisoners, and dissidents that were jailed prior to the start of the war. It was subsequently filled even further with Iraqi prisoners of war. A great chunk of these people were just at the wrong place at the wrong time. It's war, tends to happen. Many of these people were tortured for information they didn't have. Some of the people they captured were Iraqi military personnel, militia members, or insurgent operatives, which at the time were few. And you know until we laid eyes on them and saw what was going on, these practices were taking place counter to the understanding of international law, as well as domestic laws. Lots of innocent people went through that process needlessly and that is why we need rules of conduct and that is why we make such a big deal about it. We are not barbarians, we can't bring freedom and justice to a country where we practice torture. It's counter-productive and hurts our effort in the region.

We never should have been there in the first place, but if we have to be there we need to at least obey the laws that guarantee treatment with basic human dignity, otherwise we're no better than them nor do we stand above the ideology that brought us to Iraq, we become the enemy because no one can tell us apart from terrorists. I can't believe people don't see that. The actions of a few can fuel more violence and create sustainable rebellions. Creating a power vacuum which creates civil war. Whether we're there or not. This is why we need to watch our actions closely and NOT condone such acts. There are laws against this kind of thing for a reason.


[edit on 3-3-2008 by projectvxn]

Originally posted by asublimeguy27
i find it sad and funny,that people will defend and cry over these scumbag prisoners.these are the same type of people that hate your amercians guts and wanna slit your throat.may youll

I don't care if the prisoners in Question are the lowest scumbags the planet has ever seen. They are still entitled to due process PERIOD! Are they guilty? Who knows, but they still should not be treated int his fashion. What we are seeing is a serious Moral and ethical decay. What exactly separates us from the terrorist now? How are we ANY different? The Constitution is much more than a piece of paper to pay lip service too. Its a way of life than many of my fellow countrymen seem to forget :shk: Once you decide you can ignore parts of it at will its pretty much done for eh?

.this liberal crap like this is why america is in ruins.if it was up to me id bomb the whole middle east into a parking lot.where is all the out cry from

Yes the Neocons have done so much for America. :shk:

Originally posted by asublimeguy27
.may youll should go over there and maybe hold thier hand and let them talk about thier feelings.this liberal crap like this is why america is in ruins.if it was up to me id bomb the whole middle east into a parking lot.

Has anyone seen this guys other posts, they are full of racism, and offensive comments.

If everyone thought like you, there would be NO world. You wouldn't be alive.

Back on topic. Just so you know most of these prisoners are there without evidence or trial. Are you sure they aren't innocent, how would you know, where's the evidence? what makes you have the right to judge these people?

[edit on 3-3-2008 by _Phoenix_]

reply to post by ironman433


ironman...you are 100% right.
The soldiers over there are in harms way day in and day out...while most of you sit in your cushy chairs and tap your fingers on your keyboard...complaining about cruelty. These people we have taken prisoner would not even blink at cutting our throats. They are POWs and do not deserve even the slightest bit of respect. Support our troops...most of whom will come back and be negatively affected by their time spent over there. They desrve our support and none of us has any right to judge from our homes here in the land of freedom.

So as somebody in another thread suggested. The holocaust is already underway. Pure filth.

Before I get berated for the following comments, let me say that this behavior is unacceptable for a soldier in the US military. Having said that, I can't stand to see people here condemn the entire military for the actions of a few.

Also, keep in mind these prisoners have been involved in far worse atrocities against humanity; roadside bombings, bombings of marketplaces, indiscriminate killing and maiming of innocent people including children, etc.

Finally, know that our soldiers and others, who have been taken prisoner by friends of our prisoners, have been subjected to far worse treatment, including beheading. Do any of you remember Daniel Pearl?

I ask that everyone keep a clear head and think before labeling our protectors as evil.

reply to post by jerico65


start a thread on it, if you want to discuss it. no one here is discussing the pros and cons of manual vs. automatic transmissions, either, but that doesn't seem to get your goat? this thread is for discussing abuses by americans. in debating, what you are doing is known as a 'bait and switch'. we see a lot of the same tactic used when people are criticizing bush, ....'well clinton did this, so, na na na na na'.

you know lao tzu? one of his tenets is that you cannot successfully defeat an enemy that does not want to be defeated.
eastern thinking is hard for some. i believe this means, if you go into the war zone, burn all the crops, rape the women, and steal all the wealth, you will be hated and will be eventually murdered in your sleep, or killed in a peasant uprising.
if you want to 'win' in iraq, you must be seen as shining beacons of hope by the people. it is obvious that the orders from above to use any means necessary to 'break their spirit' is not the right way to win the war. being as bad, or worse(at least in effect, because you're foreign invaders) than the previous overlords only brings despair, and desperate people are dangerous, with nothing to lose, and everything to gain.
the type of acts from abu gharib were perpetrated by soldiers who are supposed to represent the character of the US.

iraq is not america.
saudi arabia is RIDDLED with atrocities, but their our 'friends' so it is ignored.
the middle east is not america. their religious traditions and culture were thousands of years old when columbus set foot on north american soil. old habits die hard. especially when they are 'god's habits.
if you don't want to be tortured by barbaric throwbacks to the dark ages, then STAY OUT OF THEIR COUNTRY! the war was waged on LIES. there is NO EXCUSE for ANY of it.

mind you, i'd actually be all for a 'police action' that targets human rights abuses against women(female circumcision, stonings, 'right' to murder adulterers, etc.), but 'we' would have to go into saudi arabia for some action, and other friendly arab states, and then we could go to israel to stop their torture chambers from operating and stop the holocaust on their borders, and then 'we' would have to invade china and stop the qi gong followers from being imprisoned, tortured and farmed out for organs while they're still alive, and stop the murder of unwanted baby girls.........

but, of course, it's all about driving up the price of oil so the barons can have new mega-yachts and more wives, and not about right and wrong.

OR, america could try and stop the CIA from bringing so much coc aine and heroine into the country, and stop the powerful industrtial lobbies from running the country by putting the power of printing currency back into an ACTUAL representative government, and, blah, blah, blah to the deaf ears of jingoistic, nationalist flag-ism.

reply to post by riotact1


the land of freedom that has 900 000 of it's own people on terror watch lists?
the land where you can't bring more than 100 mls. of contact solution on a plane, or a half inch blade swiss army knife?
the land of freedom where the government gives it's people fake proxy identities, and then puts the yoke of tax slavery, with all of the taxes going into the hands of 13 families to pay down the 'national debt'.

'national debt', what a tragic comedy. how does a nation get into debt? the nation IS the 'money'.

Originally posted by billybob
start a thread on it, if you want to discuss it. no one here is discussing the pros and cons of manual vs. automatic transmissions, either, but that doesn't seem to get your goat? this thread is for discussing abuses by americans. in debating, what you are doing is known as a 'bait and switch'. we see a lot of the same tactic used when people are criticizing bush, ....'well clinton did this, so, na na na na na'.

Why bother? I can see that no one here cares. Everyone here seems to agree that America is the root of every world problem today.

And why not compare Clinton to Bush? He was the President in office prior to Bush. Just like people compared Bush Sr to Clinton, and Bush Sr to Reagan.

Originally posted by intrepid

Originally posted by BlueRaja
Bottom line: we are there, so whether we should be there or not is somewhat moot. Now that we are there, should we leave under circumstances that will create more chaos and encourage would be terrorists, or should we try to make sure that we don't create a bigger mess?- answer that.

I don't think that is the point. The troops are there and to just up and leave would create a civil war. THAT would be the fault of this Admin. With a civil war I don't think there would be more terrorist, probably less as they would be fighting amongst themselves. Power vacuum and all.

I wasn't talking merely about Iraq with regards to terrorism, but rather the Middle East in general. Our lame responses to terrorism in the 90s emboldened would be terrorists/terror states, creating the situation we now find ourselves in. If we cut and run in Iraq, it sends the message to any terrorist or would be foe, that all that is necessary to be victorious over the USA is to be more patient than the public, because they don't have the stomach to see things through like their ancestors did.

Originally posted by Silenceisall
reply to post by jerico65

 

You misunderstand me but I'm not surprised. The US installed Saddam, gave him weapons and protected him until he got too big for his britches. Yes he used torture, which is terrible. Torture is always terrible. But again, you are evading my question. Why should we go over there and then use torture against people who were trying to defend their country? Why are we there? What good has come of it? Are 100,000 dead civilians good? What about the thousands of US soldiers? Maybe the destruction of the US economy is a good thing. We have no business being there, no matter what you have been told.


[edit on 3-3-2008 by Silenceisall]

You keep equating the insurgency with a populist uprising in Iraq, fighting for the security of their country. That is NOT the case. Iraq has a sovereign, democratically elected government. The insurgency is going not just America, but against the will of the vast majority of Iraqis. These insurgents are not analogous to Americans fighting the British in the Revolutionary war.

Originally posted by Silenceisall
reply to post by BlueRaja

 

I love the way you guys hop around from foot to foot when you get cornered. Let's try to stay on topic. You are arguing that torture in the case of Iraqi militants is justified. I am saying torture is never justified, period, and that it is even worse in this case because Iraq was invaded for no reason other than to secure oil supplies.

Here's a questionaire, it's very short:

1) Should the US have invaded Iraq?



[edit on 3-3-2008 by Silenceisall]

Again, the question you pose is a moot point, as we have been in Iraq 5yrs. Based on the best available info at the time, I don't think it was a bad decision. Could they have done a better job of planning for post conflict pacification, etc... sure, but hindsight is 20/20. There were a lot of things taken for granted, and a lot of incorrrect assumptions made, but the overall goal was worthwhile. I would've preferred more troops from the outset, to ensure security was maintained. Additionally, it would've been preferrable if we could've had a northern front, coming from Turkey to cut off any troops trying to escape, and blend in with the populace, and able to assist terror groops with the insurgency.

I'd love for us to not be dependant on foreign oil, so that region becomes marginalized. The reality of the situation is that oil makes the world go around, and it is most certainly in our(and everyone else's) interest to make sure that unstable regimes don't threaten the supply to the rest of the world. If there's any resource worth fighting for, that is certainly at the top of list. It's not a matter of us just wanting to go take their oil, or keep other countries from having access. It is a matter of making sure that regimes that would attempt to ruin the world economy understand the risks of those courses of action.

Originally posted by BlueRaja

Originally posted by Silenceisall
reply to post by BlueRaja

 

I love the way you guys hop around from foot to foot when you get cornered. Let's try to stay on topic. You are arguing that torture in the case of Iraqi militants is justified. I am saying torture is never justified, period, and that it is even worse in this case because Iraq was invaded for no reason other than to secure oil supplies.

Here's a questionaire, it's very short:

1) Should the US have invaded Iraq?



[edit on 3-3-2008 by Silenceisall]

Again, the question you pose is a moot point, as we have been in Iraq 5yrs. Based on the best available info at the time, I don't think it was a bad decision. Could they have done a better job of planning for post conflict pacification, etc... sure, but hindsight is 20/20. There were a lot of things taken for granted, and a lot of incorrrect assumptions made, but the overall goal was worthwhile. I would've preferred more troops from the outset, to ensure security was maintained. Additionally, it would've been preferrable if we could've had a northern front, coming from Turkey to cut off any troops trying to escape, and blend in with the populace, and able to assist terror groops with the insurgency.

I'd love for us to not be dependant on foreign oil, so that region becomes marginalized. The reality of the situation is that oil makes the world go around, and it is most certainly in our(and everyone else's) interest to make sure that unstable regimes don't threaten the supply to the rest of the world. If there's any resource worth fighting for, that is certainly at the top of list. It's not a matter of us just wanting to go take their oil, or keep other countries from having access. It is a matter of making sure that regimes that would attempt to ruin the world economy understand the risks of those courses of action.

I don't think the point is moot. The "best available info at the time" was cooked up by Cheney and there are senior people at the CIA who have said as much. He basically said this is the evidence I need, so give it to me. And not only did they cook up evidence, they ignored contrary accurate evidence (the fictional Nigerian "cake" deal) and then attacked one of their own agents when her husband wrote a column with the info. This is a corrupt government, and the war is a fraud. You say that oil makes the world go round, but really oil has made the world unstable and seems to be positioning us for even bigger conflicts down the line. Innovation is what makes the world go round, and through innovation we can come up with (and are coming up with) more efficient and greener forms of energy. So no. The war is based on lies, and is being conducted not to liberate the Iraqis (they don’t seem very liberated to me), but to get oil supplies. So we are torturing people in secret prisons worldwide to support an illegal economically driven occupation. You can't justify that.



[edit on 4-3-2008 by Silenceisall]

Goodness silence. Everytime a debate about Iraq or anything relating to it someone brings up oil. Pitiful. Why is it hard to believe that America wants other countries to be free? The Iraqis here are no different than those over there though. I have an Iraqi neighbor and he has a giant poster of Saddamm on his wall. Every Wednesday night he would have 5 men in robes and turbans come to his door. When he answered, they handed him a large envelope of cash ( I watched with binoculars ) then he would hand them a large document sized legal envelope. I called the police and told them what I had been seeing and they laughed at me. They responded to several domestic violence calls to his home. They said he told them that in their culture women were submissive and needed a smack every now and then to keep them in line. I finally called the FBI and they said they were aware of him and they eventually picked him up and arressted him.
I bring this up to illustrare a point that we have no idea who the terrorists are and who they aren't over there or here in the states. He was my neighbor for two years and I had no idea until I got nosey about the turbans one day and got out my binoculars. It was explained to me by the FBI gentleman that arressted him that they arrest those muslim men all the time for domestic violence and odd behavior. Imagine being an American soldier and fighting an enemy that you can't identify. I don't agree with the extremeties at abu graihb, but I do think that some form of info retrieval should be in place.

Originally posted by Silenceisall


I don't think the point is moot. The "best available info at the time" was cooked up by Cheney and there are senior people at the CIA who have said as much. He basically said this is the evidence I need, so give it to me. And not only did they cook up evidence, they ignored contrary accurate evidence (the fictional Nigerian "cake" deal) and then attacked one of their own agents when her husband wrote a column with the info. This is a corrupt government, and the war is a fraud. You say that oil makes the world go round, but really oil has made the world unstable and seems to be positioning us for even bigger conflicts down the line. Innovation is what makes the world go round, and through innovation we can come (and are coming up with) more efficient and greener forms of every. So no. The war is based on lies, and is being conducted not to liberate the Iraqis (they don’t seem very liberated to me), but to get oil supplies. So we are torturing people in secret prisons worldwide to support an illegal economically driven occupation. You can't justify that.

[edit on 4-3-2008 by Silenceisall]

The info I'm referring to wasn't the "yellow cake," "containment rods," etc...
I'm referring to the belief that every intel agency in the world believed, as well as John Kerry, Bill Clinton, Ted Kennedy, etc...
I agree that we need to come up with new energy sources, and ASAP, so that we aren't dependant, but something that may be a great solution 10-20yrs from now, doesn't do us much good with today's reality.
You keep saying we're there to take the oil- can you show me that is something that has happened?
You also keep harping on all of this torture that we're supposed to be doing. Do you have any stats on the frequency and numbers of people that we are supposed to have tortured-or have we tortured everyone that we have detained, in your estimation? You seem to have a lot of info that you are sure is accurate, but are quick to critique info that doesn't go along with your views, with regards to accuracy. My yardstick for validation of info is a little higher than your gut feeling about what you think is going on.
As for the Iraqis- the vast majority do go on with their lives, without being oppressed by the US military. The only thing holding up complete return to normalcy(and that's normalcy by western standards, not mid east standards), is the insurgency.
So while you're busy fixating on every shortcoming that can be found with the US military, and the abuses that happened at Abu Ghraib, I'd love to hear your opinion about these stories, by means of comparison.

www.arabnews.com...§ion=0&article=107428&d=3&m=3&y=2008

www.alertnet.org...

mannyishere.blogspot.com...