New Abu Ghraib Images (WARNING: very disturbing)

I'm going to make one more post here and then call it quits because we are just going around in circles. I want to clearly say that I do not have it out for soldiers--that was not the reason for this post in any way. I think a good percentage of soldiers are patriotic and moral individuals who are performing a selfless act--even if they are, in the case of Iraq, terribly misguided. Most of the young guys who signed up for duty in Iraq were acting out of a sense of outraged patriotism after 911, but they were lied to and easily manipulated by this administration. The WMD story was a fabrication, and it was only ever about the oil. So what has happened? Thousands of soldiers have lost their lives having been led into a sham of a war that was badly planned and carried out to fulfill the corporate agendas of weapons manufacturers and big oil, while securing oil supplies for any future war the Pentagon might want to wage. The "Saddam is a big scary dictator who is going to destroy the US story" in the media was always total BS. So when I hear about all the soldiers coming back home with PTS and not being taken care of properly, I say that's not a big surprise given the reasons why this war was begun, and how it has been carried out. The torture at Abu was just one more disgusting aspect of the whole thing, and don't tell me that more of the same is not going on around the world. As 2cents has said, we need to know the truth, otherwise you soldier boys will be led into a no win conflict again in the future, where you will once again be forced to debase your souls for corporate greed.









[edit on 5-3-2008 by Silenceisall]

I feel ya silence. While we do not see eye to eye on this thread, I do at least see your point. Having been a US serviceman myself I am still filled with pride for my country and fellow servicemen. Therefore it is a bit touchy to hear negative things said about them.

Originally posted by Silenceisall

I think a good percentage of soldiers are patriotic and moral individuals...

Absolutely.

Am I a Torturer?

Four months later, Darby was sitting in the Abu Ghraib mess hall; cnn was on, showing Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld's congressional testimony on prisoner abuse. Darby had no idea his tip—which military investigators had assured him would remain anonymous—had led to a national scandal. He heard Rumsfeld name various people who'd provided information—"first the soldier, Specialist Joseph Darby, who alerted the appropriate authorities...My thanks and appreciation to him for his courage and his values."

Darby dropped his fork midbite. Oh #. He felt 400 pairs of eyes on him....

Continued at Source

Jak

[edit on 5/3/08 by JAK]

I don't see what the big deal is. Seems like every time they get their hands on one of ours, they loose a head. How about the PMC's that were drug behind cars, beaten, mutilated and burned then hung upside from a bridge for the world to see! How did that make you feel. Oh, and if you haven't noticed. These guy don't take many prisoners.

Those pictures shouldn't have been put out there for public scrutiny. At least thats my opinion!



Bubbakiah

Its just plain sick. You can see the joy in the faces of the soldiers. Terrorists or not you dont treat fellow human beings like that.

The mentality of some that it is okay to torture these "terrorists" as they do worse things to the Western soldiers than the Western soldier do to them is just so pathetic. How can they even think that that attitude makes torture okay? Do they really think that God (or whoever you believe in) sits up there thinking "well, that wasn't a very nice thing for that soldier to do to that guy but, hey, that guy is related to a guy who's related to someone who once tortured a soldier"! Sheesh. Grow up and start taking responsibility to your actions. Its this "pass the buck and make excuses" mentality which is why the world's in such a shoddy state at the moment.

reply to post by LovingSoul


Nobody here is defending these folks, and that's the point we're trying to make. It's as if we're not having the same conversation. What we are saying is that-

A- this is not representative of the military as a whole so stop making generalizations

B- let's hear the same level of condemnation when other nations/groups do heinous acts

reply to post by BlueRaja


I hold the American military to a higher standard than other groups, and so should you.

reply to post by Silenceisall


And where did he say that he didn't hold the military to a high standard? The only thing I see being said is that the standard shouldn't be one of generalizing, and that at least equal coverage be given to atrocities committed by others than the military(as they are usually far worse).

Originally posted by Silenceisall

I hold the American military to a higher standard than other groups, and so should you.

I hold the US military to a very high standard. That's why the majority of the US military is outraged about this incident.

Are you saying that it's OK for other groups to torture prisoners, since they aren't being held to a high standard???

Originally posted by GT100FV
reply to post by Silenceisall

 

And where did he say that he didn't hold the military to a high standard? The only thing I see being said is that the standard shouldn't be one of generalizing, and that at least equal coverage be given to atrocities committed by others than the military(as they are usually far worse).

If an Iraqi man is behaving like a sadist, then that is the responsibility of the Iraqi people and the Iraqi governement. If the US is torturing, then it is the responsibility of the US government and the US voting public. What you are seeking to do is play down the Abu crimes by playing up what some Iraqis have done--that is BS and an excuse to sit back and feel like you are on the right side in this conflict. I have said that I do not think all soldiers are sadists, but that is part of holding the US military to a higher standard. No cruely should be excusable, especially when the US is there "to liberate them there Iraqis."

Also, you ignore that the US military is THERE, after an invasion propped up with false evidence. That of course you won't address.


[edit on 6-3-2008 by Silenceisall]

Originally posted by jerico65

Originally posted by Silenceisall

I hold the American military to a higher standard than other groups, and so should you.

I hold the US military to a very high standard. That's why the majority of the US military is outraged about this incident.

Are you saying that it's OK for other groups to torture prisoners, since they aren't being held to a high standard???

Read my last post.

reply to post by Silenceisall


Who is calling for excusal of the behavior at Abu Ghraib, or downplaying it?
Nobody-that's who. What is being called for is to stop generalizing about the entire military based upon this incident. What is also being called for is at least the acknowledgement that a lot of other messed up stuff goes on that isn't caused by the USA, and the condemnation of it. It's hard to tell what side you're rooting for, if you only ever condemn the US.

reply to post by Silenceisall


I don't think anyone downplays Abu. They just like everyone to remember that US POWs get treated far worse.

Well, I believe we invaded because of WMDs and Saddam was in need of a hanging. Have we found the WMDs that we thought were there? Not yet, but Iraq is a pretty big country, and they could be hidden in the desert.

And no one here has touched on something I mentioned several times concerning WMDs: What about the road traffic heading into Syria when the war started?

Originally posted by GT100FV
reply to post by Silenceisall

 

Who is calling for excusal of the behavior at Abu Ghraib, or downplaying it?
Nobody-that's who. What is being called for is to stop generalizing about the entire military based upon this incident. What is also being called for is at least the acknowledgement that a lot of other messed up stuff goes on that isn't caused by the USA, and the condemnation of it. It's hard to tell what side you're rooting for, if you only ever condemn the US.

There are people here who have downplayed it...read from the start. Also, as for your last sentence, American citizens should be holding their military to the highest possible standard, and should speak up when they commit these kinds of attrocities. It is precisely because you support your military that you care if they debase themselves and others. If you really support them, then you don't support them blindly with a blank cheque mentality. If you really support them you care that they conduct themselves morally, and you are outraged when they don't, or when they are led into a no-win situation to suit a corporate agenda. If you want to go to war, then you man up and take moral responsibility for the actions of your military, and you speak up when you think they are being lied to.







[edit on 6-3-2008 by Silenceisall]

Originally posted by jerico65
reply to post by Silenceisall

 

I don't think anyone downplays Abu. They just like everyone to remember that US POWs get treated far worse.

Well, I believe we invaded because of WMDs and Saddam was in need of a hanging. Have we found the WMDs that we thought were there? Not yet, but Iraq is a pretty big country, and they could be hidden in the desert.

And no one here has touched on something I mentioned several times concerning WMDs: What about the road traffic heading into Syria when the war started?

Jerico...you have been watching a little too much Fox news. The US has had hundreds of thousands of troupes in Iraq for five years and have found nothing, not even a trace of WMDs. Plus we know that they manufactured evidence and suppressed other evidence according to what they wanted the public to believe. You were lied to, and you are holding on to the lies. Let them go and take responsibility for what is being done in your name.

reply to post by Silenceisall


I am outraged when others in the military embarass the rest of us. The point is, that you only show outrage. You are hung up on Abu Ghraib, and won't let it rest. It's like Rain Man or something. Just keep these wise words from Teddy Roosevelt in mind-

“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; because there is not effort without error and shortcomings; but who does actually strive to do the deed; who knows the great enthusiasm, the great devotion, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement and who at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly. So that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.”

Originally posted by GT100FV
reply to post by Silenceisall

 

I am outraged when others in the military embarass the rest of us. The point is, that you only show outrage. You are hung up on Abu Ghraib, and won't let it rest. It's like Rain Man or something. Just keep these wise words from Teddy Roosevelt in mind-

“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; because there is not effort without error and shortcomings; but who does actually strive to do the deed; who knows the great enthusiasm, the great devotion, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement and who at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly. So that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.”

I am not hung up on Abu Ghraib. This post is long because there are strong feelings on both sides. I posted this thread because I thought it was important to know the full scale of what happened and what is still happening. Abu was just a starting point for what has become a larger discussion.

Let's have a closer look at that Teddy Roosevelt quote:

“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better.

I could not agree more, but I am not a music critic, literary critic or the jealous brother of a successful businessman. We are talking about war here, which concerns us all. What you are saying is that American citizens who are not fighting this war should keep their traps shut, no matter what happens or why the war was started. That is the position of a yes man and a sheep, which I am not, nor will I ever be.

The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again

Absolutely--although comparing a boxing match or sport to a war is simple and deluded.

because there is not effort without error and shortcomings;

Yes, but torturing the civilians of a country you have invaded is not a "shortcoming."

but who does actually strive to do the deed; who knows the great enthusiasm, the great devotion, who spends himself in a worthy cause,

Yes, but what is your worthy cause in this case--securing oil and profits for weapons makers and big oil, and taking control of a sovereign country only for those reasons? Doesn't sound like such a worthy cause to me.

who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement and who at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly.

In this case "in he fails" he has walked away from a destroyed country with hundreds of thousands of civilians dead, thousands of US soldiers, not to mention a destroyed American economy and a destroyed American reputation. That is not failure that is Armageddon.

So that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.”

Who are those cold and timid souls, your fellow citizens, about 99% of them?




Old Teddy would be very disturbed to know that his words were being used to justify.





[edit on 6-3-2008 by Silenceisall]

reply to post by Silenceisall


What year did the attrocities occur at Abu Ghraib? This is 2008, so my point is that it's not exactly current news. That doesn't mean that it was any less tragic. You are stuck in 2003, and refuse to get beyond that incident. Iraq is not about oil profits or weapons profits, and we are not in control of a sovereign nation. The Iraqi government has control. We are there to assist the security situation, so that subversive elements opposed to democracy, don't undermine the will of the Iraqi people.

Answer these questions-

what is the downside of success in Iraq, with a stable government, and US forces able to pull out without leaving the country in a state of turmoil?

How are you helping achieve that? Are you part of the solution, by henpecking the military, and Monday morning quarterbacking?

Because of your intense hatred of Bush, you'd rather undermine any chances of success, than show any support whatsoever. As a soldier, I take a dim view on those that prolong conflicts, and this sort of crap does just that. It does nothing to contribute to a positive outcome in Iraq, which hopefully you'd like to see.

Teddy Roosevelt wasn't talking about boxing by the way.

[edit on 6-3-2008 by GT100FV]

Answer these questions-

what is the downside of success in Iraq, with a stable government, and US forces able to pull out without leaving the country in a state of turmoil?

The only kind of success in Iraq that is envisioned is one that allows the US to control the oil there. If you really think this US government cares about Democracy in other nations, then you do not know what really happened in Iraq when the people tried to vote for representatives they liked--if they did not meet US criteria (pro-American, secular, open to American big business coming in and setting up shop everywhere) they were removed from the race (read The Shock Doctrine). The US brought in American contractors for everything, effectively shutting down a large portion of the Iraqi economy, putting a lot of angry young men out of a job, along with the hundreds of thousands of soldiers that got canned. How does that have anything to do with Democracy? Furthermore, the US will never be able to walk away without trouble, that is why they have built an embassy that is more like a small city. They know that, even if you don't. Democracy has been perverted by this Admin, and is now seen as another world for free trade.

How are you helping achieve that? Are you part of the solution, by henpecking the military, and Monday morning quarterbacking?

I have an opinion, and I care about what happens in the world. By the way, it is not winnable in the way that you are talking about. Things are now being controlled by force and fear and through alliances with warlords. Once the US gets out (if ever), they will have to install another Saddam like dictator to do their bidding and keep the oil flowing West.

Because of your intense hatred of Bush, you'd rather undermine any chances of success, than show any support whatsoever. As a soldier, I take a dim view on those that prolong conflicts, and this sort of crap does just that. It does nothing to contribute to a positive outcome in Iraq, which hopefully you'd like to see.

Oh really. I am prolonging the conflict? The conflict has not been long because the war was unwinnable I suppose. No this war was planned brilliantly. If it wasn't for me, it would have been over when Bush declared "mission Accomplished" back in 2004. That's a heavy responsibility. it's all due to the internet and the truth getting out. Wow.

Teddy Roosevelt wasn't talking about boxing by the way.

He wasn't talking about an illegal occupation of a country for a corporate agenda either.






[edit on 6-3-2008 by Silenceisall]