New Abu Ghraib Images (WARNING: very disturbing)

reply to post by NewWorldOver



I don't know if you should meet this challenge despising your opposition. Use the facts. And the facts are this:

1 Torture and humiliation of this caliber ARE illegal under the Geneva Convention, a document WE SIGNED. We have laws within the borders of this country that express the same language. We have military regulations and directives that also outlaw this.

2.All of these laws were made because people recognized the moral depravity of such acts.

I understand the strong feeling of disgust of actually condoning these actions. But more negativity won't solve it. We have to push the ideals we were raised with, and the ideals this country has long stood for. I commend you for fighting this tooth and nail, but don't turn people away from your message by filling it with negativity.


[edit on 1-3-2008 by projectvxn]

reply to post by DisabledVet


See, that's where you're wrong. Abu Ghraib was a preschool. Children would go there to laugh and play in the sunshine. Of course, that's before the evil Bush-bots of the US Military arrived. *sarcasm off*

OK, Abu Ghraib was on Amnesty Internationals hitlist while Saddam was in power. Seems that Saddam would execute 100+ prisoners at a time there.

This was also the location of the infamous "shredder", too.

Bravo 20 got a nice tour of the facilities there. I think that it's believed that Scott Speicher was held there.

And what about Sgt Keith Maupin? Anyone know where he's at? He was captured in 2004. No word of what happened to him.

What about PFC Joseph J. Anzack Jr., Pvt. Byron W. Fouty and Spc. Alex R. Jimenez? Anyone know about these guys? Anzack's body was found after they had been captured. The Iraqis that found him said he had been mutilated and tortured. Reports were that the other two were executed and buried where they wouldn't be found, but they are still be carried as missing.

reply to post by jerico65


So what exactly is your point? What do you think of the people in US Army uniforms that commited these crimes? What do you think should happen to them? Do you understand how US Soldiers like these can taint the very army you are fighting with?
How far up the chain of command did their orders to do this come from? Is anyone responsible for these crimes? Do two wrongs make a right?

watchZEITGEISTnow

reply to post by watchZEITGEISTnow


What happened to the people that commited the crimes? Well, the Soldiers that did were tried and are now doing some hard bullets in a military prison.

I never thought or said that two wrongs make a right. I just like to remind people of the timeline. Speicher and Bravo 20 were from the First Gulf War, where Coalition Aircrew were captured, tortured and beaten. No one seems to remember that.

And no one remembers what has happened to US Soldiers captured in this war. The ones that were executed when that Transportation Company was overrun and Jessica Lynch was captured. Or the three guys that are still MIA now.

reply to post by jerico65


You really do get spoon fed and take it all in without question, which is sad. The topic is not about THEM, it is about what US forces have done to defenceless POWs. Do not deflect your attention.

Also you bring up Jessica Lynch, who btw came clean in saying the whole entire "rescue mission" was staged, read up on her, but then again, you will probably contrive some other story to say what about this or what about that.

I seriously feel sorry for you, for you have been brainwashed by the very puppets that control information. Wake up.

watchZEITGEISTnow

I feel sorry for you zeitgeist. You are right, this thread is about the torture at abu graihb. But I ask you this, why can't we bring up those from the US and her allies that have been tortured and murdered to contrast this whole thing? Why ? Because people here are digging and reaching for reasons to hate the US. Those of you outside the US want what we have, and those of you on here that are from good ol America, don't you forget how you got what we got. Stop biting the hand that feeds you. If you are so unhappy with America, do what your ancestors did when they were unhappy with their countries,,, LEAVE ! Or is America's appeal to great for you to leave, you just want to sit around and piss and moan about everything.

reply to post by watchZEITGEISTnow



Do not deflect attention on what has happened to US POWs in this same conflict. If we are going to look at what's happened, we need to look at it all, not just cherry pick the details that you like and forget about the rest.

US POWs didn't have pics taken of them with women's underwear on their head. They just get tortured and executed.






[edit on 2-3-2008 by jerico65]

heres something i dont understand,

why mistreat your prisoners?,surely a massive part of winning a war is to win hearts and minds.the romans knew that,thats how they kept all the subordinate regions and provinces in line,they looked after them,built them roads,made sure they were fed,and you know what after a while most of them forgot they were even being ruled and thus gave up rebellion.

mistreatment and attroscoties only worsens sentiment,boosts opponents moral,increases the number of enemies.its entirely counterproductive!

so why did the adminstration allow torture and abuse?,allow their troops to run rampant without consequence?,who was advising them!?,what is going on!?!?!?

[edit on 2-3-2008 by welivefortheson]

Originally posted by welivefortheson
so why did the adminstration allow torture and abuse?,allow their troops to run rampant without consequence?,who was advising them!?,what is going on!?!?!?

They didn't let them run rampant without consequence. Those that were tried for prisoner abuse were sent to jail.

You are correct, tho. You don't treat your POWs bad because it can reflect on your own that are captured by the enemy. Iraq and Iran do have a history of POW abuse. I don't think there are any countries out there that don't have a clean slate.

Originally posted by jerico65
They didn't let them run rampant without consequence. Those that were tried for prisoner abuse were sent to jail.

You are correct, tho. You don't treat your POWs bad because it can reflect on your own that are captured by the enemy. Iraq and Iran do have a history of POW abuse. I don't think there are any countries out there that don't have a clean slate.

Well, I can name a few, but they tend to declare themselves neutral countries... and thats a pretty smart decision if you ask me.

As for the torturers sent to jail thing, they were clearly scapegoats to give the media at home someone to blame... yet the atrocities are still being carried out.
The US military is still violating many Geneva laws knowingly right now!

When a soldiers fear of their own government becomes so strong that it automatically overrides moral judgment... you know you have just become a tool of a dictatorship.


Time to end this people. The question of whether or not to get out is moot now. The longer we allow the forces to remain overseas, the more terrorists we are actually creating. We are giving the people reasons to attack us.

The more we hit them over there, the more they will want to hit us at home.

Get out, and get out NOW.

You want to defend your country? Then DO IT. Get back home and use that manpower where it COUNTS.

reply to post by watchZEITGEISTnow



You see there is something you and I agree on. I'm glad that the majority see this as deplorable...Makes me wonder about the minority.

Originally posted by deesw
I feel sorry for you zeitgeist. You are right, this thread is about the torture at abu graihb. But I ask you this, why can't we bring up those from the US and her allies that have been tortured and murdered to contrast this whole thing?

contrast and justification are different. it is an atrocity whenever any human visits such indescribable terror and pain on another living being. saying, 'he did it first' does not work in kindergarten, and it does not work in international conflict. there is NO JUSTIFICATION for torture and the evil witnessed at abu gharib.

Originally posted by deeswWhy ? Because people here are digging and reaching for reasons to hate the US. Those of you outside the US want what we have, and those of you on here that are from good ol America, don't you forget how you got what we got.

it turns out that's your opinion preached as fact. the US has given a reason to be hated. people don't need to look for it.
and, the way america got what it has is through extinction through holocaust of the humans who owned the land before whitey showed up.

Originally posted by deeswStop biting the hand that feeds you. If you are so unhappy with America, do what your ancestors did when they were unhappy with their countries,,, LEAVE ! Or is America's appeal to great for you to leave, you just want to sit around and piss and moan about everything.

the hand that feeds me is MY HAND. the people of america who formed america did not leave the country they loved. they fought to MAKE it into the country they loved by breaking the yoke of uberpowerful overlords.

read a book without the flag-coloured glasses.

[edit on 2-3-2008 by billybob]

reply to post by billybob


Well, I just like to point out that Abu Ghraib has been a prison used for torture a long time before the US arrived. Most people seem to conveniently forget that little fact when they are jumping on the "US tortures everyone" bandwagon.

And name a nation that didn't kill off a bunch of people when they were first settling a country. Doesn't make it right, but it happened.

the people of america who formed america did not leave the country they loved. they fought to MAKE it into the country they loved by breaking the yoke of uberpowerful overlords.

Dude, where were you at when they tought American History? America was totally founded by people from other countries seeking relief from persecution, they left a country they didn't like. DUH
So pimp daddy, about the me giving my opinion as fact. I never said anything about fact. I just said people are reaching for reasons to hate America. I'd love for you to pick up a weapon and defend something MR. Bob
I have fought for my country,,, have you ever fought for anything ever? There is a price for freedom, it's never been handed to anyone. We are helping the people of Iraq gain their freedom. You have to break a few eggs to make an omelette

reply to post by jerico65


oh.
the PRISON is torturing people.
that's different.

reply to post by deesw


redcoats/bluecoats. all of them from europe. one loyal to the crown, the other loyal to the ideal of the soverveign individual. the crown lost, and america was born.

that's what i was 'tought', anyway.

That's not what the rest of us were tought mr bob.But I'm not gonna debate what they actually tought in History. I'm thinking we are beating a dead horse here.

reply to post by watchZEITGEISTnow


It's not a matter of whether what the soldiers did was right. It wasn't. What some of us find intriguing though is the amount of indignation against the military, but the deafening silence with regards to the heinous acts done by insurgents/terrorists/Saddam/etc... We never ever hear you all say- "look what they did!" with nearly the fervor that you critique our side. We get tired of hearing the constant complaining about our shortcomings, while the true bad guys get a free pass. Which side are you all rooting for?

Originally posted by billybob
oh.
the PRISON is torturing people.
that's different.

Ah, yeah. Right. That's it. *cue scary music*

reply to post by jerico65


That's a pretty weak justification. To say that torture occurred in location A, therefore we should be allowed to torture in location A. I guess we should also be allowed to exterminate a race in Germany, slaughter all members of a political class in Cambodia...etc etc...You cannot justify torture, and you can't justify your fear of Muslims.