New Abu Ghraib Images (WARNING: very disturbing)

reply to post by 2 cents


So you don't think that it's important to condemn barbarity when it's committed by others(or our enemies), just when it's embarassing to ourselves?

Originally posted by BlueRaja
If the new information was that we were killing prisoners, dismembering them, eating their children, then I'd agee that changes things.

Is there a reason you resort to gross exageration at every oppurtunity?

You see: grossly exagerating things is a prime tactic at cutting the subject. The subject is that TORTURE is WRONG and that the U.S. Military has been caught promoting torture when it is in fact ILLEGAL.

So these are the facts : Torture is illegal. The military has admitted to torture. We as American citizens do not feel the military has the right to illegally torture people.

When presented with that stance: this is what I keep hearing from you and others, over, and over, and over :

"But 'they' cut our heads off and put it on T.V."

"We aren't doing anything worse than what happened in Vietnam."

"At least we aren't eating there children."

How are any of those statements ANYTHING but a flimsy avoidance and exageration???

This is tiresome. Those of you who have sold your soul to the military (literally) are incapable of having a level-headed discussion involving this topic. You demonstrate yourselves in this manner in countless other threads.

You are so hung up on your own personal affiliation with the military that you sidestep the main issue over and over in favor of flimsy logic.

TIRESOME.

Originally posted by BlueRaja
So you don't think that it's important to condemn barbarity when it's committed by others(or our enemies), just when it's embarassing to ourselves?

Again, tiresome side-stepping of the issues and avoidance.

We are conemning barbarity in every situation. Not just those situations which 'embarass' your precious military.

We are not embarassing 'ourselves' when we stand up against torture... if anything, we are fighting for the integrity of our country by standing up against it.

It really doesn't matter how many times you manage to side-step the topic. You are part of a minority of Americans who substitute denial and irresponsibility for common sense and decency. It's quite obvious you put the reputation of your own military above that of your country.

This is tiresome. Those of you who have sold your soul to the military (literally) are incapable of having a level-headed discussion involving this topic. You demonstrate yourselves in this manner in countless other threads.

Well now, I didn't know you wanted to get in on the discussion Mr. Helper.

US servicemen and women don't sell their souls to anyone. We take an oath to protect and honor our countries and it's allies. Some bad apples that did not adhere to that code do not sum up the entire US military and I don't appreciate the assumption. We have the courage and the moral fortitude to serve something other than ourselves. Let's not continue to focus on the past indiscretions of a few servicemen and women. Let's stop pointing fingers at the very people that are fighting for freedom.

We need Christian voice back on here, where did he go? I think perhaps he kept a few people on their toes and didn't stand for verbal abuse aimed toward US military personnell. I think maybe he got fed up with the bashing and left. Maybe he'll come back.

How is what I said a gross exaggeration? If the new info was showing more acts of humiliation, then that's old news. If something far more heinous was done(i.e. the kinds of things I said), then that would be pretty newsworthy.

Don't confuse people in the military that have violated the law/done things that could be construed as torture, with military policy being the torture of detainees. That is highly inaccurate, and offensive to those of us in uniform to be lumped together with those who have dishonored themselves, the uniform, and their country.

You(and others) have yet to answer the question how the fixation on this isolated event is a positive thing. Talk about avoidance.

reply to post by NewWorldOver


I don't see the same fervor used to condemn anyone else other than the USA. Don't even try to pretend that you all condemn the violence and barbarity that insurgents/terrorists/terror state sponsors/etc.. commit, with the same passion that you bash the US military with. Anything to discredit the military, Bush, the USA, etc.. because your agendas are to get us out of Iraq at any cost, no matter how high.

Originally posted by BlueRaja
reply to post by 2 cents

 

So you don't think that it's important to condemn barbarity when it's committed by others(or our enemies), just when it's embarassing to ourselves?

To suggest that I don't care about all barbarism is moronic logic. Let it be known for now and always I condemn all barbarity in all forms when committed by anyone.

Silly arguments BlueRaja.

And by the way you suggested that you were a member of our armed forces. I would like to thank you for your service. I think the men and women of our armed forces are good people and I am proud of the service they provide for our country. I am especially grateful that such people feel the need to give themselves in service to our country through military service. I, for myself, am not envious of your job and for my own part do not wish to serve in the military, I am glad there are others that do.

This in no way negates my right to be concerned with what others do in our name.



[edit on 4-3-2008 by 2 cents]

Excellent post 2 cents. Excellent.

This is why I do not support the troops and I never will. They are nothing but legal gangs with a license to kill. I seriously hope that bytch and basstard in the pics get whats coming to them- I really do, and all their buddies and commanders as well.

They are not and nor have they been authorities over people- they are only cruel, evil horrible wastes of skin. Sadly evil is running the show right now- but its not gonna last forever and when it ends I would not want to be them or even related to them.

Those who live by the sword will die by it- and not soon enough for me.

reply to post by dk3000


You have a poor vindictive attitude and your post really contributes nothing to this discussion

reply to post by BlueRaja


why do you keep reducing the extent of the crime by calling it 'humiliation'?
did you not see the dried up corpse?
did you not see the pools of blood?
did you not see a man with a hood, wired into an electrical circuit?
did you not see forced sexual acts?
did you not see a man trying to protect his genitals from a german sheppard's jaws?

it was torture, and even murder.

it was not 'humiliation'.


[edit on 4-3-2008 by billybob]

reply to post by dk3000


Nice post. Once again, someone is comparing the actions of a few people to the entire US military. Now, wasn't someone earlier saying that this didn't happen here??

Originally posted by NewWorldOver
Again, tiresome side-stepping of the issues and avoidance.

We are conemning barbarity in every situation. Not just those situations which 'embarass' your precious military.

Well, if you are, I'm not seeing it. The only thing that goes on here is how horrible the US military is at Abu Ghraib. When someone brings up the torture of US personnel, it's always blown off, if it's even addressed at all.

Originally posted by billybob
why do you keep reducing the extent of the crime by calling it 'humiliation'?

It was prisoner abuse. I was treated worse in SERE School. If all I had to worry about was waterboarding and having to wear women's underwear on my head, I'd sleep well at night. (as long as the underwear is blue; that color really brings out my eyes.)

And yes, I was waterboarded in SERE school. It sucked.

reply to post by jerico65


so you were electrocuted, handcuffed in a standing positition for over a day, forced to perform fellatio and buggery on your friends, you lost three quarts of blood on the floor, were covered in feces, and then you were killed and left to rot?

did you LOOK at the pictures?

what a useless dialogue.

[edit on 4-3-2008 by billybob]

This is modern society. It doesn't do us any good to warp our moral guidelines to fit that of people who have seen combat. If you want to talk about the realities of war, meet me when America has crumbling into poverty and gangs are roaming the street. You can thank your pointless wars of foreign occupation for that. And we'll be sure to thank all the nitwits torturing innocent Arabs who instigated even more hatred to the U.S.

reply to post by 2 cents


Thanks for the support- we do appreciate it. As for the logic issue- if I/we don't see the condemnation vocalized, we have no way of knowing your thoughts. In otherwords you(the universal you) may well condemn all barbarity, but it seems that the concern usually is only vocalized with regards to the US military or the CIA. That's what I was pointing out. If I saw a bunch of threads on here pointing out insurgent/terrorist barbarity, by the same folks pointing out our shortcomings, it'd give me much more of a warm and fuzzy feeling.

Originally posted by dk3000
This is why I do not support the troops and I never will. They are nothing but legal gangs with a license to kill. I seriously hope that bytch and basstard in the pics get whats coming to them- I really do, and all their buddies and commanders as well.

They are not and nor have they been authorities over people- they are only cruel, evil horrible wastes of skin. Sadly evil is running the show right now- but its not gonna last forever and when it ends I would not want to be them or even related to them.

Those who live by the sword will die by it- and not soon enough for me.

This is a good example of a broad brushstroke for those of you who might be in doubt. Because of a single incident involving less than 50 people(out of an organization of about 1.4 million), the entire military is undeserving of respect or support.

Originally posted by billybob
reply to post by BlueRaja

 

why do you keep reducing the extent of the crime by calling it 'humiliation'?
did you not see the dried up corpse?
did you not see the pools of blood?
did you not see a man with a hood, wired into an electrical circuit?
did you not see forced sexual acts?
did you not see a man trying to protect his genitals from a german sheppard's jaws?

it was torture, and even murder.

it was not 'humiliation'.


[edit on 4-3-2008 by billybob]

I'm not trying to condone what went on at Abu Ghraib, but I'm also not willing to try and read into photos beyond what can be ascertained from observation(i.e. you assumed that the corpse is of a prisoner who was alive, and killed by the guards, you assumed that actual sex acts were performed when even the headline said simulated sex acts, you assumed the blood was from injuries sustained while in custody, you assumed that the dogs were ever able to bite the groins of prisoners, you assumed that actual electrical current was used to inflict pain, etc...) - none of these things can proved or disproved from the photos. While these pictures are horrible, and embarassing to the military, I'm not willing to make assumptions beyond what can be shown by photographic evidence.