New Abu Ghraib Images (WARNING: very disturbing)

There seems to be many here of the opinion that those who would even bring this abuse to the light of day are somehow anti-American or of the 'blame America first crowd'. I disagree. I love America and wish it were the beacon of light to the world, an example for other nations to follow. This is why abuses such as this should be known to American citizens and politicians. We should know what others are doing in our name and supposedly for our sake. We, America, should never condone torture of any kind for any REASON, EVER. I can't even believe that some here think that torture is alright. This shouldn't even be something that anyone would have to debate over. I suggest that as humans we should strive toward our ideals of what it means to be human and we should resist the sick, evil impulses that lead to torture and not tolerate this inhuman behavior from anyone, whoever they may be.

I say all this from my cushy armchair in front of my computer and I believe it with all my heart. If I were ever in the positions of the soldiers I pray to God to give me the strength to do what is always right and moral, to be strong willed and upright in the face of horror and never to succumb to behave like an evil beast.

Originally posted by BlueRaja

Originally posted by Silenceisall


I don't think the point is moot. The "best available info at the time" was cooked up by Cheney and there are senior people at the CIA who have said as much. He basically said this is the evidence I need, so give it to me. And not only did they cook up evidence, they ignored contrary accurate evidence (the fictional Nigerian "cake" deal) and then attacked one of their own agents when her husband wrote a column with the info. This is a corrupt government, and the war is a fraud. You say that oil makes the world go round, but really oil has made the world unstable and seems to be positioning us for even bigger conflicts down the line. Innovation is what makes the world go round, and through innovation we can come (and are coming up with) more efficient and greener forms of every. So no. The war is based on lies, and is being conducted not to liberate the Iraqis (they don’t seem very liberated to me), but to get oil supplies. So we are torturing people in secret prisons worldwide to support an illegal economically driven occupation. You can't justify that.

[edit on 4-3-2008 by Silenceisall]

The info I'm referring to wasn't the "yellow cake," "containment rods," etc...
I'm referring to the belief that every intel agency in the world believed, as well as John Kerry, Bill Clinton, Ted Kennedy, etc...
I agree that we need to come up with new energy sources, and ASAP, so that we aren't dependant, but something that may be a great solution 10-20yrs from now, doesn't do us much good with today's reality.
You keep saying we're there to take the oil- can you show me that is something that has happened?
You also keep harping on all of this torture that we're supposed to be doing. Do you have any stats on the frequency and numbers of people that we are supposed to have tortured-or have we tortured everyone that we have detained, in your estimation? You seem to have a lot of info that you are sure is accurate, but are quick to critique info that doesn't go along with your views, with regards to accuracy. My yardstick for validation of info is a little higher than your gut feeling about what you think is going on.
As for the Iraqis- the vast majority do go on with their lives, without being oppressed by the US military. The only thing holding up complete return to normalcy(and that's normalcy by western standards, not mid east standards), is the insurgency.
So while you're busy fixating on every shortcoming that can be found with the US military, and the abuses that happened at Abu Ghraib, I'd love to hear your opinion about these stories, by means of comparison.

www.arabnews.com...§ion=0&article=107428&d=3&m=3&y=2008

www.alertnet.org...

mannyishere.blogspot.com...

Man...where to start. The stories you posted make Muslims look like animals, but I could find quite a few that make Christians and Jews look like animals too.

As for your doubt about the US's true intentions in Iraq. Here is a story you should read:

www.guardian.co.uk...


Here's a story about the US's push to militarize the Middle East, selling weapons to nations supposedly full of "terrorists" who do the sort of things that those stories you posted describe:

www.spiegel.de...


Here's a nice character piece on Cheney, that reveals something about the secretive and dishonest way he likes to operate:

www.guardian.co.uk...

Finally here's some Cheney humour to lighten your day:

bp3.blogger.com...

reply to post by 2 cents


Nobody here(well maybe the oddball) is defending torture or abuse. What we are taking exception to, is that all of the attention is solely focused on the US, with broad brushstrokes being used. Many here believe that these sorts of things are going on all the time, and are standard procedure throughout the military.

reply to post by Silenceisall


So your response is "well I can go look for more negative stories about the US, Christians, and Jews?" I'd love to see some of these stories in modern history, where mainstream Christians and Jews are doing anything remotely comparable to such acts.

Rather than saying that every ill in the world is of US origin, I'd just love some acknowledgement that there are many ills of foreign origin, that you and many others conveniently omit in your rhetoric.

reply to post by BlueRaja


I doubt very seriously that what happened there is being practiced by the military throughout Iraq and elsewhere. At least I hope that it is not. That being said there are many here and elsewhere who believe that waterboarding is appropriate. It is being debated among politicians. This is a dangerous path to proceed down. We punish the illegal activities of troops that have tortured people, but debate allowing other or certain forms of torture. In my opinion torture is torture and well beneath the conduct of decent human beings.

Also, while the conduct of other groups is important, there should be nothing wrong with examining our own behavior or the behavior of those that act on our behalf. In other words I shouldn't have to post an example of our enemies barbaric behavior in order to examine our own. We all know what horrible things they have done (i.e. beheadings). This is something you regrettably come to expect from these fanatics. What we do not expect is for our own troops to behave this way. We need to know about it and we need to solve it. Period. No excuses.




[edit on 4-3-2008 by 2 cents]

[edit on 4-3-2008 by 2 cents]

Originally posted by 2 cents
reply to post by BlueRaja

 

I doubt very seriously that what happened there is being practiced by the military throughout Iraq and elsewhere. At least I hope that it is not. That being said there are many here and elsewhere who believe that waterboarding is appropriate. It is being debated among politicians. This is a dangerous path to proceed down. We punish the illegal activities of troops that have tortured people, but debate allowing other or certain forms of torture. In my opinion torture is torture and well beneath the conduct of decent human beings.

Also, while the conduct of other groups is important, there should be nothing wrong with examining our own behavior or the behavior of those that act on our behalf. In other words I shouldn't have to post an example of our enemies barbaric behavior in order to examine our own. We all know what horrible things they have done (i.e. beheadings). This is something you regrettably come to expect from these fanatics. What we do not expect is for our own troops to behave this way. We need to know about it and we need to solve it. Period. No excuses.




[edit on 4-3-2008 by 2 cents]

[edit on 4-3-2008 by 2 cents]

Just out of curiosity(and not taking any sides of this issue)- how many detainees do you believe have been waterboarded? I don't know the answer to that question other than what the government said(used on 3 individuals, and not used since 2003). Abu Ghraib is another example of an isolated type incident. You are certainly free to believe that waterboarding or Abu Ghraib type incidents happen all the time, but there is no damning evidence showing this to be the case. Now with that said- those of us who don't believe these things to be happening as a matter of practice, take exception to fixation on isolated incidents, for the purpose of self-loathing(or to rile up the Arab world by continually keeping these images out there). It's not a matter of trying to excuse these things, or cover them up. It's a matter of -how is the continual stirring of PR hornet's nests a positive force in the world? All it does is foment Arab extremism and hatred, and it's not even indicative of standard behaviors/procedures.

reply to post by BlueRaja

To quote myself "I doubt very seriously that what happened there is being practiced by the military throughout Iraq and elsewhere."

I have no way of knowing how many people have been water boarded - How would I? But regardless I think the practice should not be done.

Now the title of this thread said "New" pictures. These pictures are much worse than anything I ever knew about or saw previously. Before seeing this post I figured dog collars and so forth was about as bad as it got. I have heard many people on talk radio excuse that kind of behavior and to say that waterboarding is not so bad. I think that people should know the truth of what transpired. If new evidence emerges of what happened and it paints a different picture of what people currently have of the whole mess, then yes they should know about it and it may change their point of view.

The fanatics hate us anyway - what PR could possibly change that? What is beyond hate? I prefer for US citizens to be aware of the truth than worrying about what people who already hate us think. And besides owning up to mistakes and correcting them is much better PR than ignoring it and sweeping it under the rug.

If there is nothing new to emerge, or add to what has transpired, or what we know about what has transpired, then I agree there is no reason to rehash old news - IF it is truly nothing new and just old news.

And one more thing. It is a positive thing for us to know about these things so that they may be stopped, corrected, and prevented from occurring again. Procedures and so forth analyzed so that isolated incidents like these do not occur again.

Originally posted by 2 cents

Now the title of this thread said "New" pictures. These pictures are much worse than anything I ever knew about or saw previously. Before seeing this post I figured dog collars and so forth was about as bad as it got. I have heard many people on talk radio excuse that kind of behavior and to say that waterboarding is not so bad. I think that people should know the truth of what transpired. If new evidence emerges of what happened and it paints a different picture of what people currently have of the whole mess, then yes they should know about it and it may change their point of view.

The fanatics hate us anyway - what PR could possibly change that? What is beyond hate? I prefer for US citizens to be aware of the truth than worrying about what people who already hate us think. And besides owning up to mistakes and correcting them is much better PR than ignoring it and sweeping it under the rug.

If there is nothing new to emerge, or add to what has transpired, or what we know about what has transpired, then I agree there is no reason to rehash old news - IF it is truly nothing new and just old news.

Have new people been identified as having done something at Abu Ghraib, or is there just new info about what may have happened, by the people we already know about? My point is that those who screwed up there, have been punished, so what more would you like to see happen by showing more pictures? You are correct that extremists will hate us no matter what, but by continually focusing on negative stories, the likelihood of creating new extremists goes up. Seeing as how those extremists want to shoot at me or my fellow servicemen, I tend to frown on doing things that encourage them, by keeping them pissed off.

Originally posted by 2 cents
And one more thing. It is a positive thing for us to know about these things so that they may be stopped, corrected, and prevented from occurring again. Procedures and so forth analyzed so that isolated incidents like these do not occur again.

How is your knowledge of these events, or the Arab world's knowledge, a contributing factor in stopping, correcting, preventing, these things? The only people who can do those things are the military leadership, and if they are doing those things, does that satisfy you? We have a saying in the military- solve problems at the lowest level(i.e. no more people than necessary need to be involved with regards to solving a problem). You only take it to higher levels, if the problem can't be solved at low levels.

reply to post by BlueRaja


I see your points, I really do. The people have already been punished and nothing more is to be done to them. The only points that I am making, or trying to make, is that I believe that people should know what really happened not just watered down versions of it. When it was big news I heard people repeatedly saying "what they did is really no big deal", maybe because the whole truth of what happened was unknown. BlueRaja do you see what I am saying?

Again I agree with you totally that there is no reason to keep bringing this up if it is all just rehashing of old news.

Originally posted by BlueRaja
How is your knowledge of these events, or the Arab world's knowledge, a contributing factor in stopping, correcting, preventing, these things?

Well for one thing when this whole story broke it caused an investigation, trials, etc. So public knowledge of such things is important and can contribute to stopping and preventing abuses by putting public scrutiny and pressure on our leaders to do something about it.

Originally posted by BlueRaja
The only people who can do those things are the military leadership, and if they are doing those things, does that satisfy you?

Political pressure may be brought to bear on these military leaders and if they address these things and work to prevent them from occurring in the future then yes that is satisfactory.



[edit on 4-3-2008 by 2 cents]

reply to post by 2 cents


I'm fairly certain that post Abu Ghraib, no military leader is gonna sit on their hands while stuff like that goes on. Most leaders aren't interested in ending their careers or going to jail.

Originally posted by 2 cents
reply to post by BlueRaja

 

I see your points, I really do. The people have already been punished and nothing more is to be done to them. The only points that I am making, or trying to make, is that I believe that people should know what really happened not just watered down versions of it. When it was big news I heard people repeatedly saying "what they did is really no big deal", maybe because the whole truth of what happened was unknown. BlueRaja do you see what I am saying?

Again I agree with you totally that there is no reason to keep bringing this up if it is all just rehashing of old news.

I agree that at the time that this event was current news, it was important to find out what happened, and by whom. Now that it isn't current news, and the responsible parties have been punished, I don't see what added benefit new pictures provide.

Originally posted by BlueRaja
reply to post by 2 cents

 

I'm fairly certain that post Abu Ghraib, no military leader is gonna sit on their hands while stuff like that goes on. Most leaders aren't interested in ending their careers or going to jail.

I Agree and this is certainly a positive result of Abu Ghraib becoming the major news it was. What, by the way, do you think would have happened if none of the stories or pictures of Abu Ghraib saw the light of day - that is, never became public knowledge?

Originally posted by BlueRaja
Now that it isn't current news, and the responsible parties have been punished, I don't see what added benefit new pictures provide.

Well I tried to make this point clear. In the minds of many people the incident of Abu Ghraib was not a 'real big deal'. If new information shows it to be worse than originally put forward then I think people should know that. People need to be informed on what takes place in the world and in their name. An informed public is key to making sure our leaders do what is right.

I think that people should be aware of the truth - and if these pictures add to that truth then they should be known. You seem to think that the story should be left in the past regardless of what new truths may come to light.

Apparently we just aren't going to see eye to eye on this, to each his own.

Originally posted by 2 cents

Originally posted by BlueRaja
reply to post by 2 cents

 

I'm fairly certain that post Abu Ghraib, no military leader is gonna sit on their hands while stuff like that goes on. Most leaders aren't interested in ending their careers or going to jail.

I Agree and this is certainly a positive result of Abu Ghraib becoming the major news it was. What, by the way, do you think would have happened if none of the stories or pictures of Abu Ghraib saw the light of day - that is, never became public knowledge?

Originally posted by BlueRaja
Now that it isn't current news, and the responsible parties have been punished, I don't see what added benefit new pictures provide.

Well I tried to make this point clear. In the minds of many people the incident of Abu Ghraib was not a 'real big deal'. If new information shows it to be worse than originally put forward then I think people should know that. People need to be informed on what takes place in the world and in their name. An informed public is key to making sure our leaders do what is right.

I think that people should be aware of the truth - and if these pictures add to that truth then they should be known. You seem to think that the story should be left in the past regardless of what new truths may come to light.

Apparently we just aren't going to see eye to eye on this, to each his own.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

reply to post by 2 cents


If the new information was that we were killing prisoners, dismembering them, eating their children, then I'd agee that changes things. If the new information was merely that they suffered more humiliation than was previously thought, then I don't think that the public is served by rehashing the story. The point I(and others) are making isn't that these acts were justified, tolerable, or in any way acceptable, they were certainly less permanent in their harm, than how US prisoners have been treated. If barbarity is the issue, then we'd like to hear complaints against everyone committing barbarity, not just the US.

Originally posted by 2 cents

I Agree and this is certainly a positive result of Abu Ghraib becoming the major news it was. What, by the way, do you think would have happened if none of the stories or pictures of Abu Ghraib saw the light of day - that is, never became public knowledge?

If the military found out about it, these individuals would still have been punished. The only difference is that there wouldn't have been the public embarassment factor.

Originally posted by BlueRaja
reply to post by 2 cents

 

If barbarity is the issue, then we'd like to hear complaints against everyone committing barbarity, not just the US.

I think we need to hold ourselves to our own standards. Barbarity exists world wide (i.e. 2000 monks killed recently). We all know that. The argument that we cannot examine ourselves without tossing examples of other peoples failings first is ludicrous. Do I really need to find fault with all others before finding it with myself? I think instead you make sure your clean yourself before you go around throwing accusations and pointing out other people's faults. That way you don't look like a fool with double standards.

So in closing I couldn't disagree more with all that you just said. My points have been made repeatedly here on this page. You disagree with me, fine.

I'm with ya bluraja. I think we have determined that the majority on this thread care only about the few Americans that committed the torture at abu graihb on war criminals and not at all on the attrocities committed by these criminals or their bretherin. This thread has gotten nowhere. Both sides feel equally strong about it. It has been an interesting debate though.