Lear expertice needed!(or anyone else)

Originally posted by MrPennyCertainly too small to launch any conventional rocket with the size needed to lift space station components into orbit without a significant number of witnesses.

First of all how big does a rocket have to be to lift space station parts?

How about the Delta IV heavy lifters? My "list" though not complete shows many areas capable of handling Delta's and they DO have more than enough power to carry a lot of stuff up there... And thats not counting the other rockets similar to the Deltas...

Second who said there had to be no witnesses to a launch? Toursist going "Wow cool launch!" and snapping off a few pics does not mean they have a clue what the cargo is... or its destination... and most likely don't really care...

And if someone did want to know and asked 'Hey what's on that thing?" and they got a reply of "Oh its only a commercial satellite" what are ya gonna do call em a liar?

Originally posted by zorgon
Second who said there had to be no witnesses to a launch? Toursist going "Wow cool launch!" and snapping off a few pics does not mean they have a clue what the cargo is... or its destination... and most likely don't really care...

Oh that's just swell, Zorgon. You come to an island that you know does not have an established space program facility and see a light in the sky, of biblical proportions. Sure you'll keep mum about it, won't you?

Heck if ANYBODY saw that it would have been in the news.

You have an alleged UFO someplace in Midwest and in it's in the news the same day. If one was to follow your ridiculous logic, the onlookers would just say "Wow cool launch" /end quote/ and walk away.

Originally posted by tezzajw
However, without any firm data about Melville Island (remember that you need a permit to visit there)

Irrelevant. You need a permit to visit any Aboriginal Homeland in Australia.

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV

Originally posted by tezzajw
However, without any firm data about Melville Island (remember that you need a permit to visit there)

Irrelevant. You need a permit to visit any Aboriginal Homeland in Australia.

I'm not sure what the point of your post was? The discussion is not about other permit-only areas in Arnhem Land, etc, as there was no speculation that they had any rocket launch facilities. Of course other areas need permits - big deal, we know that. We're not concerned with them, if they are not part of the space conspiracy.

As I stated, without a permit to visit Melville Island, we can't go there and explore on our own. It is relevant that you need a permit to visit there, as it proves that we can't look around on our own terms. Even with a permit, we can only go where the tour guides will permit us to go. If I was wanting to hide a secret spaceport, then I'd be happy to build it on a secluded island, with restricted access. It would eliminate many security measures without raising any questions, as it's based on restricted, indigineous land. Very convenient.

Originally posted by buddhasystem
Oh that's just swell, Zorgon. You come to an island that you know does not have an established space program facility and see a light in the sky,

Hmmmm

Launch Sites:
IRC-Soyuz: on Cape York Qld or Christmas Island,
Kistler-K1: Woomera SA,
STS-Proton: Melville Island or Gunn Point NT
ULS-Unity: off Gladstone Qld.

Commercial Launches...
"They all involve use of derivative overseas rocket systems launched from sites as diverse as Woomera, Darwin, Gladstone, Cape York or Christmas Island. "

An Asia Pacific Space Centre at Weipa or Temple Bay on Cape York, or on Christmas Island, involves an IRC deal with Starsem, a Russian-French company that markets Soyuz rockets, along with Korean interests. Starsem began in 1996 through Arianespace, Aerospatiale of France and Russian agencies to offer Soyuz for commercial missions. Starsem is to launch between 12 and 46 Globalstar mobile satellites for Loral from 1998. On 17 March 1998, the Federal Government announced the Christmas Island plan, while noting the stringent environmental assessment required before approval.

www.aph.gov.au...

Seems even the Russians and French are launching there

Launch Sites in Red...[not including military installations]




[edit on 6-12-2007 by zorgon]

More on Kwajalein...

U.S. Army Kwajalein Atoll/Kwajalein Missile Range (USAKA/KMR) is a remote (located in the Republic of the Marshall Islands), secure activity of the Major Range and Test Facility Base as constituted by DoD Directive 3200.11. Its function is to support test and evaluation of major Army and DoD missile systems, Army Space surveillance and object identification, and National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) scientific and space programs. Programs supported include Army missile defense, Ballistic Missile Defense Organization (BMDO) demonstration/validation tests, Air Force Intercontinental Ballistic Missile (ICBM) development and operational tests, U.S. Space Surveillance Network, and NASA Space Transportation System.

From:
ARMY RDT&E BUDGET ITEM JUSTIFICATION (R-2 Exhibit) 0605301A

The decision to build the launch site in Kourou was made by France in 1964 and the initial construction at a cost of 25 million Francs was completed in 1968. Kourou provided France with the alternative to the Hammaguir rocket test base in Algeria, evacuated by June 30, 1967, in the aftermath of the Algerian war for independence.

Early on, the French government made an official decision to make the site available to any country willing to deploy its space launcher systems there. At the time, few could predict that Russian rockets would become first "foreign guests" in Kourou.

www.russianspaceweb.com...

reply to post by tezzajw


It is irrelevant because it is not a special case.

Your fuzzy logic is that because you need a permit, there must be something secret going on.

No.

The permit system has existed since the homelands came into creation. whether in the Torres Strait, Arnhem Land, Anangu-Pitjanjatjara or Maralinga...
This is to prevent those areas turning into zoos frequented by gawkers, such as some people say Hmong areas in Vietnam have become.

Why don't you find out how hard it is to get a permit to Melville Island? And to whom you have to apply.

Now back to Gary for a moment...

His list of "Non Terrestrial Officers" could actually be referring to something else... Perhaps this is why they were so worried... that he might actually have remembered names...

Two little stories...

---------------------------------------------
He took two slow steps backwards and turned to head back to his jeep. First, he would have jumped down my throat for not saying "Sir" if he was a Captain. Then I would have been standing before a court martial for handling a weapon in a threatening manner. Third, he started back to his jeep (with no driver) and no response.

I was going to stop him but the MS was really freaked out by this time and ran up to me and said: "Are you crazy? What are you doing"?

I protested and said: "Sarge, this guy's an impostor, can't you see that? Everybody else might be dead"!

He said: "You may be right but I'll find out what's going on when we get back. Don't take the chance of a court martial for threatening an officer"!


I remember say something like: "I already did that and if he's an officer, then I'm an alien"! The "Captain" heard that and turned back and looked at me with black eyes! It sent a shivering chill up my spine upon seeing this and said: "Did you see that? Look at him! His eyes are black now"!

I started to raise my weapon at him and tell him to stop and the MS got in front of me and said: "Stand down soldier, that's an order"!

As the Captain drove off back towards the training area I told the MS: "We'll never know now, that's the last time we'll see him and you aren't going to find out anything when we get back and know it".

He said: "I know, but we saw something special and can't repeat it, can we? Who would believe us? And someone would stop us one way or another. And if I let you shoot him, and he is what he looks like, where would we be then? And what makes you think he didn't have a weapon? Because you couldn't see one? He may have had something that could vaporize all of us, the size of a lighter"!

Here is the rest of the story... quite interesting actually...

www.thelivingmoon.com...
----------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks, Ron. I got a kick out of reading your note! YES..MIB's do exist. Did you get a chance to read my story about the 'visitor' I met at MacDill? He had 2 sets of eyelids...honestly...reptilian! I about # my pants when I saw his eye...never forget them!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Both these descriptions are from Military people...

Considering both 'visitor's were wearing US Military officers uniforms... looked like us save for the eyes...

I would hazard a guess that one could class these as "non terrestrial officers"

Originally posted by zorgon
Commercial Launches...
"They all involve use of derivative overseas rocket systems launched from sites as diverse as Woomera, Darwin, Gladstone, Cape York or Christmas Island. "

THAT'S your source? Are you kidding me?

People have been suggesting Oz spaceports for years. The Gov't repeats the same thing:

"Sure, in Woomera." This is because the other locations are in some of our largest biodiversity habitats and therefore not to be used.

Cape York was proposed at least 15 years ago and rejected on the spot. BTW, one doesn't need a permit to drive ones four-wheel drive from Brisbane to Cape York to Darwin around the Gulf of Carpentaria. You don't think Australia's clearly very strong environmental lobby, including the Green Party, might not have said something about a spaceport out there? Maybe?

An Asia Pacific Space Centre at Weipa or Temple Bay on Cape York, or on Christmas Island, involves an IRC deal with Starsem, a Russian-French company that markets Soyuz rockets, along with Korean interests. Starsem began in 1996 through Arianespace, Aerospatiale of France and Russian agencies to offer Soyuz for commercial missions. Starsem is to launch between 12 and 46 Globalstar mobile satellites for Loral from 1998. On 17 March 1998, the Federal Government announced the Christmas Island plan, while noting the stringent environmental assessment required before approval.

www.aph.gov.au...

Seems even the Russians and French are launching there

Really. Care to post an article stating that the site passed that stringent environmental assessment?

Launch Sites in Red...[not including military installations]

Did you not see the proximity to Darwin?

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Soyuz rockets pretty big? Shed a lot of light, visible from a long way away?

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV
It is irrelevant because it is not a special case.
Your fuzzy logic is that because you need a permit, there must be something secret going on.

Clearly, you have not read my posts properly. Nowhere did I imply that because a permit is needed, that something secret must be going on. I'm aware of false logical implications and I always do my best not to type them. Yeah, I've taken a course in logic.

However, it is convenient that should someone wish to hide a secret facility, that they do so in a permit zone on an island. That's what I stated.

The DOD is working hard to develop the space cadre the Nation needs. We are implementing a space human capital resources strategy to ensure our people have the education, skills and experiences needed to develop space power, and more importantly, to bring that power to bear on warfighting, intelligence collection and other national security needs. The space human capital resources strategy has four goals: First is to ensure the services develop the space professionals they need to fulfill their unique requirements; second is to integrate the space professional development efforts within the national security space community; the third goal is to improve the integration of space capabilities into joint operations; and the last goal is to consistently assign the best space professionals to critical jobs across the Department of Defense.

An integrated strategic approach will help us recognize the services' unique missions while we develop the cadre we need. We are committed to building a total DOD space cadre to meet the needs of national decision-makers and joint and coalition-fighting forces.

The NRO also fits into this concept. The NRO benefits from both its military elements and the expertise of its Central Intelligence Agency members. The NRO's multi-service, multi-agency identity allows the NRO to best serve the Nation by ensuring a focus on national intelligence needs. Within that construct, we will treat the NRO as part of the larger space community. We have made great progress toward the goals of the space human capital resources strategy.

The Secretary of the Air Force approved the Air Force's space professional strategy in July 2003. The strategy has resulted in many positive steps under the leadership of General Lance Lord.

The Navy has also created a Navy space policy document which defines their plan for space cadre development. Vice Admiral Jim McArthur has assumed responsibility for the Navy space cadre.

The Army has initiated a space cadre force management analysis which will define the Army space cadre and identify all space-related roles and missions. Lieutenant General Larry Dodgen has been instrumental in the Army space cadre development.

The Marine Corps has also established a focal point for space cadre management and has in place a mature process for developing space professionals, which Brigadier General John Thomas will describe.

Excerpt from a report to Congress...
[H.A.S.C. No. 108–40]
SPACE CADRE/SPACE PROFESSIONALS
HEARING BEFORE THE STRATEGIC FORCES SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE COMMITTEE ON ARMED SERVICES
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED EIGHTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION HEARING HELD JULY 22, 2004
STRATEGIC FORCES SUBCOMMITTEE


That's an awful lot of cadres of space profesionals

I'm curious if they could make orbital deliveries with something that can take off and land at a (semi) normal airstrip (with appropriate support facilities), or perhaps even get launched from a parent aircraft (ala early X-series planes), therefore negating the need to have a rocket launch in the first place.

[edit on 6-12-2007 by IgnoreTheFacts]

Originally posted by zorgon

Originally posted by buddhasystem
Oh that's just swell, Zorgon. You come to an island that you know does not have an established space program facility and see a light in the sky,

Seems even the Russians and French are launching there

No they don't. You posted a snippet of a proposal/business plan but it's just that. Please find a link with the list of launches from Melville island to support your claim (hint: you won't be able to).