Lear expertice needed!(or anyone else)

reply to post by zorgon


Try pasting that link into your browswer. I get something completely different from what you are pasting from.

May want to recheck those sources.

reply to post by zorgon

Oh Zorgon! I love it when you get technical! mmmm

Originally posted by zorgon
Now when you go through the steps to apply for these positions... you will be sent the next document... here is an excerpt from it... I suggest you read it carefully...

So you sent an email to this guy and this is what he sent you?

Why can't you post that email as well?

Why can't you paste the entire document?

GARY McKINNON INTERVIEW

"What was the most exciting thing you saw?" I ask.

"I found a list of officers' names," he claims, "under the heading 'Non-Terrestrial Officers'."

"Non-Terrestrial Officers?" I say.

"Yeah, I looked it up," says Gary, "and it's nowhere. It doesn't mean little green men. What I think it means is not earth-based. I found a list of 'fleet-to-fleet transfers', and a list of ship names. I looked them up. They weren't US navy ships. What I saw made me believe they have some kind of spaceship, off-planet."

"The Americans have a secret spaceship?" I ask.

"That's what this trickle of evidence has led me to believe."

"Some kind of other Mir that nobody knows about?"

"I guess so," says Gary.

"What were the ship names?"

"I can't remember," says Gary.

-------------------------------------------------

He strenuously denies the justice department's charge that he caused the "US military district of Washington" to become "inoperable". Well, once, he admits, but only once, he inadvertently pressed the wrong button and may have deleted some government files.

"What did you do then?"

"I thought, 'Ooh, bloody hell,' " he says. "And that's when I stopped for a while. And then my friend told me about Darpa. And so I started again."

Darpa is the Defence Advanced Research Projects Agency, an intriguing collection of brilliant military scientists, funded by the Pentagon. Darpa has been widely credited with inventing, among other things, the internet, the global positioning system, the computer mouse, and - somewhat more boneheadedly - FutureMAP, an online futures market designed to predict assassinations and bombings by encouraging investor speculation in such crimes. The US Senate once described FutureMAP as "an unbelievably stupid idea". Darpa has long been of interest to conspiracy theorists because it is semi-secretive, bizarre (they have put much effort into creating a team of telepathic spies) and occupies that murky world that lies between science and war.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"You know," says Gary, "the, uh, Non-Terrestrial Officers. The spaceships. 'The whole world thinks it's cooperating in building the International Space Station, but you've already got a space-based army that you refer to as Non-Terrestrial Officers'."


GARY McKINNON Interview
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gary's little adventure also sent a shock wave through DoD computer systems.... We have already seen it in action in the vanishing Warp Drive and fusion papers after we linked them at ATS

Internet Presents Web of Security Issues
By Paul Stone
American Forces Press Service

WASHINGTON, Sept. 25, 1998 – In a briefing room deep in the Pentagon earlier this year, Air Force Lt. Col. Buzz Walsh and Maj. Brad Ashley presented a series of briefings to top DoD leaders that raised more than just a few eyebrows.

Selected leaders were shown how it was possible to obtain their individual social security numbers, unlisted home phone numbers, and a host of other personal information about themselves and their families simply by cruising the Internet.

Walsh and Ashley, members of the Pentagon's Joint Staff, were not playing a joke on the leaders. Nor were they trying to be clever. Rather they were dramatically, and effectively demonstrating the ease of accessing and gathering personal and military data on the information highway information which, in the wrong hands, could translate into a vulnerability.

"You don't need a Ph.D. to do this," Walsh said about the ability to gather the information. "There's no rocket science in this capability. What's amazing is the ease and speed and the minimal know-how needed. The tools (of the Net) are designed for you to do this."

The concern over personal information on key DoD leaders began with a simple inquiry from one particular flag officer who said he was receiving a large number of unsolicited calls at home. In addition to having the general's unlisted number, the callers knew specifically who he was.

Beginning with that one inquiry, the Joint Staff set out to discover just how easy it is to collect data not only on military personnel, but the military in general. They used personal computers at home, used no privileged information not even a DoD phone book and did not use any on-line services that perform investigative searches for a fee.

In less than five minutes on the Net Ashley, starting with only the general's name, was able to extract his complete address, unlisted phone number, and using a map search engine, build a map and driving directions to his house.

Using the same techniques and Internet search engines, they visited various military and military-related Web sites to see how much and the types of data they could gather. What they discovered was too much about too much, and seemingly too little concern about the free flow of information vs. what the public needs to know.

www.defenselink.mil...

DoD Web Policies And Guidelines
Updated: 13-Oct-2006
Department of Defense

Security

* AFIS Web Story: Internet Presents Web of Security Issues
* Information Assurance Support Environment (IASE) - The DoD IA Portal
* Information Security Program, DoD Directive 5200.1
* Information Vulnerability and the WWW; Deputy Secretary of Defense Hamre (09/24/1998) - "All DoD Components that establish publicly accessible web sites are responsible for ensuring that the information published on those sites does not compromise national security or place DoD personnel at risk."
* Security and Policy Review of DoD Information for Public Release - DoD Instruction 5230.29
* Unauthorized Disclosure of Classified Information to the Public (DoD Directive 5210.50) - policy and responsibilities for reporting and investigating known or suspected incidents of unauthorized public disclosure of classified information and reporting corrective and disciplinary action taken
* Website OPSEC Discrepancies (SecDef MSG R 141553Z JAN 03) - THE FACT THAT FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLY (FOUO) AND OTHER SENSITIVE UNCLASSIFIED INFORMATION (E.G., CONOPS, OPLANS, SOP) CONTINUES TO BE FOUND ON PUBLIC WEB SITES INDICATES THAT TOO OFTEN DATA POSTED ARE INSUFFICIENTLY REVIEWED FOR SENSITIVITY AND/OR INADEQUATELY PROTECTED. ... THIS CONTINUING TREND MUST BE REVERSED.

www.defenselink.mil...

reply to post by zorgon


How did he know they were not Navy ships when he can't even remember their names?

This is just getting ridiculous, give me something tangible to work with here.

Originally posted by COOL HAND
Why can't you paste the entire document?

Ummmm you are not allowed to post entire documents and all the links to them are on the website pages I already linked to...

As to posting names of people that just isn't going to happen... and you have made your position quite clear that you have absolutely no interest in finding out anything...

As to Mr Penny... Don't you ever get tired of the same old cry? You know darn well that if there was absolute proof of the 'alledged' stuff it would have to come from classified sources and hence be illegal to possess, display or even discuss...

Now the original poster asked about Gary McKinnon and if there was any other material that might back up his claims... I believe I have provided that...

he did say at the time of his hack that he did a search of the names he saw and found nothing under any of them, no picture no description, another thing he said he found was the U.S Govts suppression of Free Energy

Originally posted by zorgon
Ummmm you are not allowed to post entire documents and all the links to them are on the website pages I already linked to...

No, they are not.

You claim that when you submit your application to the person listed as the POC, you received the "ADVICE TO ARMY PERSONNEL APPLYING FOR THE ASTRONAUT PROGRAM". I can't find this document anywhere on the internet, so you will either have to post it yourself or send us a working link to that document.

As to posting names of people that just isn't going to happen... and you have made your position quite clear that you have absolutely no interest in finding out anything...

Obviously you do not have the list, or access to it.

Another thing zorgon, I do have an interest in finding outthe truth in cases like this. However, your lack of supporting evidence is not helping me to find anything out.

Maybe you can believe in something with such pitiful evidence, but I cannot.

Originally posted by zorgon
As to Mr Penny... Don't you ever get tired of the same old cry? You know darn well that if there was absolute proof of the 'alledged' stuff it would have to come from classified sources and hence be illegal to possess, display or even discuss...

So why are you willing to discuss it?

No, not tired of it.....no more than you'll get tired of posting "suggestions" and "wink, wink, nudge, nudge". Your material does not support the assertions....that secret space craft, space stations, and launch facilities are launching and regularly operating off-planet platforms other than spy satellites or other non-piloted vehicles.

I'm not working in the world of pretend. You want to claim these things, show me something more than "duh, the military has space programs" type stuff. Gee, who woulda' guessed it? I've never found any of your evidence to be anything other than smoke and mirrors with a lot of hints and carefully constructed "possibilities". Then, you get snippy and snotty when called on it. And constantly fail to answer to criticisms or critical questions with nothing more than yet more pictures, snipped documents, and innuendo. I constantly look at your sources.....yet you fail every time to examine any flaws in it. Just pile more gunk on and cry, "you all never read my sources".......

I find it hard to believe such secret information would be on a network that is physically connected to a part of the internet that is publicly accessed. Even US businesses will keep some materials away from those connections that can touch the internet. Given that DARPA got the ball rolling in the first place I would believe they have separate secure networks for data that John Q. Public isn't to know about.

reply to post by roadgravel


Quite true. McKinnon got in hot water for hacking private and secure computers/networks, not for surfing the web. In my own personal business, I have secure documents that are not on any computer system. rather, they are locked in a secure vault and will remain that way.

reply to post by migliavacca

I take it you agree about access. I find it hard to believe a person could dial up a phone number and get access without more security or authentication than a password or lack of. I've worked at places in business that had better than that and it wasn't gov top secret/national security info. Those networks may not even have POT lines into them.

I am sure someone around most likely knows a lot more about that security.

reply to post by roadgravel


Yes I agree. In my line of work there are certain things that I can't/won't discuss even with my closest friends and family. To take it even further, not answering their questions or giving them a no comment can just fuel speculation or even give them confirmation. There are times when you just have to tell them something other than the facts. The key thing is, they are asking questions that are none of their business, they are not entitled to answers.

I heard on CNN during the Hillary Clinton hostage standoff, that the Supreme Court ruled that law enforcement can say whatever it wants in a hostage situation. It can make any promises it chooses and not be bound to honor them. Some people seem to not grasp that we're not entitled to know everything. Each and everyone one of us here on ATS and around the world keep secrets.

Originally posted by MKULKTRA121 another thing he said he found was the U.S Govts suppression of Free Energy

You don't need to hack into secret computers to find THAT info... just use the search "dead scientists' and see what you 'dig up'

Well, despite the overall problems with Mr. McKinnon's credibility, namely the fact that he never took one single screenshot of what he allegedly saw, I have heard another report of a heavily classified Air Force space fleet code named "SOLAR WARDEN" that protects our Solar System from alien nasties. Is it true? I have no way of knowing...

tinwiki.org...

Interesting topic!


Lets refresh, shall we....................

The op brought forth a snippet of news, which was basicly:

......about Gary McKinnon the man who hacked into nasa data bases and found evidence of "non terrestrial officers" and "fleet to fleet" transfers of ships .....

And then asked Mr Lear for any info or validation he could lend to the possibility of validation to what was quoted. Mr Lear, in typocal fashon, presented loosely what he believes to be possible validation. Ultimatly, it seems that the major hang up here is how it would be possible to send these craft to space all over the world without anyone noticing, right?

Well, ever heard of UFO's? Surely not all of these are craft manned and navigated by little green men. These unidentified flying objects, seen coming and going, surely could account for some if not all of the 'secret' space programs. Its foolish in my humble opinion to only believe/suspect when mainstreem science can explain and vouch for a means, 'and everything else is not possible'...... And even so, ever heard of Aurora?

Also, trying to find a paper trail of concrete answers to explain(or debunk) the op's context and/or Mr Lears answers are why ATS was created. With a small stretch of the imagination one can effortlessly believe in the possibility of advanced magnetic propultion, anti gravity propultion, harmonic propultion, ect... And least we not forget that assuming we can even imagine what the top underground government scientists and engeneers are or have developed in the way of space travil is wishful thinking at best.

Quantum physics dictates that if the base concept is not present in the human mind, not even the human eye will be able to see it. If we dont allow our minds be open to the real possibility of this type of possibilities, we are sure to be blinded to everything they will and are doing. (see: "What the bleep do we really know")

Can what Mr Lear says here be proven? Perhaps, but is it a real possibility? Absolutely. I say, instead of asking/demanding upfront impossibilities like proof of some super secret government technology which has had much greater men then we spend there time and energy on burrying, instead ask how can this be proven or disproven by conventional and unconventional means. Pitch a hand in eithor way, but simply asking how or why in a negative mannor with burden of proof as a weapon you demand instead of weild, is helping no one.

Its more than possible in my opinion, given the posibility of space craft technology to launch and/or return from virtually anywhere on the planet, silently and discretely. And even if its seen, then its just another UFO...

Having spent time in the USN and having had a very good friend in Cryptology(Guam), I can all but assure you there is things discovered and perpitrated by our government and millitary that will never see the public sector. And I thank John Lear and the likes for opening our minds to posabilities at the very least.

Best reguards, Ron.


[edit on 4-12-2007 by HomeBrew]

Originally posted by HomeBrew
Quantum physics dictates that if the base concept is not present in the human mind, not even the human eye will be able to see it.

It does? Do you have a rough source or can you post a derivation of such principle from quantum physics?

If we dont allow our minds be open to the real possibility of this type of possibilities, we are sure to be blinded to everything they will and are doing. (see: "What the bleep do we really know")

Do you have any idea what the scientists are opening their minds to? Weird stuff to say the least. Supersymmetry, the all pervasive Higgs field, microscopic black holes etc. We really are learning something about this Universe, and it takes quite a bit more than empty pronouncements that the Moon is a hologram or that all materials coming out of the Soviet space program were doctored by NASA, or similar such ridiculous stuff. As they say, keep your mind open but don't let the brain fall out.


[edit on 4-12-2007 by buddhasystem]

Originally posted by COOL HAND

Originally posted by zorgon
Ummmm you are not allowed to post entire documents and all the links to them are on the website pages I already linked to...

No, they are not.

Are too You had the link in the .doc file army.mil
www.army.mil/FA40/data/files/doc/00005.doc is the Army Astronaut Selection Board

I can't find this document anywhere on the internet, so you will either have to post it yourself or send us a working link to that document.

No I don't have to really... no more than when I take a quote out of a book or a magazine and post the Title etc of that book... I am not obligated to send you a free copy of that book or magazine... or any pdf I may have purchased from government or university sites... or FOIA documents that I have filed and received at my expense and time... and most certainly not have to post an entire personal email

All you have to do is ask the guys at the .mil site and I am sure they will be happy to assist you.

Obviously you do not have the list, or access to it.

That would depend on which list you are refering to...

The Naval Cadre? No they did not publish a list of names in that article so no I do not have their names

Top officials in many military and government installations? NASA officials? well yes I have huge lists of these names... funny thing is they are publicly available... and usually there is a contact name phone number and email on EVERY official document I have ever seen...

We called one that was on a "bucket wheel excavator for extra terrestrial use" document form LPI... his first question on returning our call was "What's your clearance level?

Another thing zorgon, I do have an interest in finding ou tthe truth in cases like this. However, your lack of supporting evidence is not helping me to find anything out.

Fine let me take you at your word for a minute on that...

Personally I believe that all skeptics here, especially the ones that 'hound' us the most have a true need or desire to believe... but something is stopping them... The fact that they (and you) continue to come back is good testimony for this...

Now if what you say is true... then let me ask you this..

What have YOU yourself personally done to seek out any info to help find the truth? Have you filed ONR FOIA report to request a document?

Have you contacted any officials and ask questions... even knowing they won't likely give you the answer because they can't? ( you would be surprised at what you DO come up with when you hit the right people...

Want a name? Russ Hamerly works for Boeing One of Boeings top computer guru's world wide cited at Hill AFB... he is very active in UFO stuff and he writes me from work and thinks my website is 'fabulous'

Look up Guy Cramer and Dr Resnick... see what they do...

How many PDF files from government labs do you have in your collection?

If you were truly seeking the truth you would have done all these things and more... yet you attcak each item of the puzzle that is presented and call it pitiful...

Well without doing like Gary MvKinnon did... how do you propose we get access to top secret documents to show what you demand? Any ideas? Do you have a suggestion on how to get these documents LEGALLY?

And don't give me that line "you can't get them because they don't exist" as some of your fellow skeptics scream... that is just stupid...

The really funny thing is that there is at least one skeptic who's job would help me prove a lot of stuff, yet I am honor bound to keep silent... and believe me I fully understand his reasons for doing what he does

Maybe you can believe in something with such pitiful evidence, but I cannot.

Well see there is the rub...

I am not asking you to believe ANYTHING... I am here because IPERSONALLY am looking for the truth. My presentations have over the last year since I started Pegasus and participated at ATS already yielded me so many contacts that I am having trouble keeping current with everyone...

The 'pitiful' evidence as you put it is certainly circumstantial in most cases... and taken separately may be meaningless... but when assembled into a bigger picture you see a pattern... and the more you follow the pattern the more info you find...

Gary McKinnon found pictures in a gallery at JSC that is where he was 'busted' In the moon thread JRA linked me to a gallery and unknown to him, a simple back track on the url showed an unprotected list of the high res .tiff files of Apollo that I have been looking for. These images were in the 100 to 200 meg size...

I was stupid enough to link people in the thread to this find before I downloaded them all... While others were looking at them the directory was pulled and only the Gemini, Shuttle and ISS images were left...

This was the same location that Gary found his images... only he hacked his way in while we found an open book...

Point is they are gone all of them. Same thing happened when we found the true color high res Mars Rover images and the same is happening right now in the Fusion thread.

Sure this stuff was in the public domain... but once posted on ATS they would have received THOUSANDS of hits within days... I am sure that set off bells... must have because the papers are pulled...

So I ask you again Just HOW do you propose we get you classified documents to satisfy your curiosity?

And just in case you missed it earlier I will repost the Joint Chief's of Staff concern over even the stuff that IS IN THE PUBLIC DOMAIN...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The concern over personal information on key DoD leaders began with a simple inquiry from one particular flag officer who said he was receiving a large number of unsolicited calls at home. In addition to having the general's unlisted number, the callers knew specifically who he was."

I can well imagine a flood of calls from some at ATS if we posted names and numbers... so that is something you will just have to get yourself...

"Beginning with that one inquiry, the Joint Staff set out to discover just how easy it is to collect data not only on military personnel, but the military in general. They used personal computers at home, used no privileged information not even a DoD phone book and did not use any on-line services that perform investigative searches for a fee."

Same method we use and you or anyone else can use...

In less than five minutes on the Net Ashley, starting with only the general's name, was able to extract his complete address, unlisted phone number, and using a map search engine, build a map and driving directions to his house."

Five Minutes? Well they only did just start

"Taking their quest for easily accessible information one step further, the Joint Staff decided to see how much information could be collected just by typing a military system acronym into an Internet search engine. While not everyone would be familiar with defense-related acronyms, many of them are now batted around the airwaves on talk shows and on the Internet in military-related chat rooms. They soon discovered how easy it was to obtain information on almost any topic, with one Web site hyper-linking them to another on the same topic.

What the Joint Staff was doing when they collected their information is commonly called "data mining" -- surfing the Net to collect bits of information on individuals, specific topics or organizations, and then trying to piece together a complete picture. Individuals do it, organizations do it and some companies do it for profit. "

So the issue has come to THEIR attention and already public documnets are being hidden again... Its going to get even harder to find you that proof...

So why don't you write your congressman about what they spent that 3.5 TRILLION dollars on...

As to Kwajalein... I don't know what they do or do not launch from there... All I have to go on is what they say on their website and in the budget allocation documents



[edit on 4-12-2007 by zorgon]

reply to post by zorgon


Well, Zorgon,

Gary McKinnon found pictures in a gallery at JSC that is where he was 'busted' In the moon thread JRA linked me to a gallery and unknown to him, a simple back track on the url showed an unprotected list of the high res .tiff files of Apollo that I have been looking for. These images were in the 100 to 200 meg size...

I was stupid enough to link people in the thread to this find before I downloaded them all... While others were looking at them the directory was pulled and only the Gemini, Shuttle and ISS images were left...

I can imagine that downloading numerous 200MB files would eat the available bandwidth pretty quickly, so the webmaster had to do someting about it. I personally don't like people poking on my server either.

The 'pitiful' evidence as you put it is certainly circumstantial in most cases...

I would say in best cases. In most cases, there are speculations of JL which don't even pass as circumstantial evidence.




[edit on 4-12-2007 by buddhasystem]

Originally posted by buddhasystem

Originally posted by HomeBrew
Quantum physics dictates that if the base concept is not present in the human mind, not even the human eye will be able to see it.

It does? Do you have a rough source or can you post a derivation of such principle from quantum physics..

Sure, its talked about in great lenghth in the documentary 'what the bleep do we really know', presented by some of todays greatest minds in the field of quantum physics. However, I can do you one better. Offer an explaination...

The relationship between the human eye and brain is a crafty yet simple one. Basicly the eye takes in information(which can be measured) and the brain puts this information together using part of whats taken in and part of pattern recognition(memory). The human eye takes in, on the order of 100x the ammount of 'raw data' that the brain can possibly put together(at any given moment) and simply fills in the 'blank spots' with what the brain(memory) is most farmiliar with. Thus, everything we see is only about 1-3% of what we are actually seeing, the rest is filled in with what we recognize easiest first.

So, if something is being taken in through the eye we have no real concept of, and is not dominating our view, our brains will simply fill the unknown in with something more farmiliar.

There is an interesting story, again taken from the documentary mentioned above...

When the first settelers of america were approaching the shores, none of the indians could see the ships. However, the shaman/leader of the tribe noticed a odd pattern to the waves out on the horizon. instead of flowing towards the shore, they were spanning from left to right and vice versa. Since no one in there tribe had ever seen such a thing as a 'ship' out on the waters, EVER, it was not even a concept. He spent many days and nights on the shore contemplating how and why and as soon as the concept of something afloat out there could be causing the odd waves, it all became clear and he could see the ship(s).

He then brought the whole village down to the shore and explained the situation and everyone too could then see the ships.

Ultimatly, my spelling, numbers and such could be a bit off but the underlining 'gist' is in tact.


I believe this has to do why only some can see ufo's and some cant. The ones who truely believe in the concept of there actually being there have a far better chance of seeing one/them than thoes who disbelieve the concept. Just a theory, but....

Best reguards, Ron.


[edit on 4-12-2007 by HomeBrew]