Why is a member here allowed to knowingly lie when there have been plenty of complaints?

Originally posted by chissler
Are you implying that the staff and Administration here have not done enough to earn the respect of it's members?

No that's not what I'm saying. I think most of the time, the staff is respectful and does work hard, and does the right thing.

But there are those times where the heat of a discussion blends in with moderator duties.

That can be worrisome for us members, because we either have to shut up, or we're forced to shut up.

Again, that doesn't happen all the time, not even most of the time, but when it does happen, that's when it's worrisome.

Originally posted by chissler
Dodge question? Fail to listen?

P_S' complaint when basically unanswered. His questions were dodged. When a mod did respond to him, the mod would ask questions or say something that had nothing to do with what he was claiming, even though he made it quite clear what he was complaining about.

I mean, I understood it perfectly, so I don't know why it was so tough for mods to just deal with his complaint.

He also U2U'd mods, and basically, his complaints were blurred again, and not fully answered or dealt with.

Then, he gets a post ban.

If he violated a rule to get the post ban, then I fully understand it. But to just blur and dodge his questions until he gets so frustrated that he does something to get himself post banned - that's not the right way to deal with it.

Originally posted by chissler
Disagreeing with staff and the administrators does not imply that you are labeled ungrateful. I hope you can understand.

I know that, and again, I appreciate all the services and the general operations of this website. It's one of the best websites I've been on, and as a web designer, I can appreciate how much work something like this would have taken.

But I just think the constant reminders of it being free and all of that, it just gets a little annoying to me. That's all. Just my opinion.

Originally posted by chissler
How exactly are we squashing this discussion?

What I mean by squashing it is the dodging of the questions P_S was asking until he eventually did something to get post banned. And also the confrontational tone by intrepid.

It just goes back to the mixing of the heated emotions with moderator duties.

I just think it'd be more wise to answer a person's question the first time, and if you, as a moderator, super moderator, or administrator, are a little frustrated at the time with the bombardment of posts in this thread, then maybe it's best to just walk away for like five minutes, then come back and do your moderating duty, so as to not come off as if you're threatening the person to shut up.

I'm not saying intrepid was threatening him, but I think him, along with a few others, can sometimes go overboard with how they get people to fall in line.

Originally posted by NovusOrdoMundi
If you dodge questions and fail to listen to the members who make this community what it is, then be ready to receive criticism.

I've not dodged any questions at all... in fact, I've been here all day waiting to see more than two reasonably minor issue brought forth.

I've attempted to discuss the point about the moved thread with Project_Silo via U2U, but received no reply and instead need to deal with him posting a modified private message from staff. And given the lack of follow-up from him, it proves he's more interested in causing disruption and feeding the perceived dissent than he is offering assistance toward a resolution.

But to squash any criticism or dissent by insinuating that we're ungrateful for what we're provided completely contradicts the point of an open discussion of opposing views message board.

Well... if you were working hard all day peeling potatoes as best you could, then two or three people out of the crowd of 300 take up a lot of your time complaining of a little skin in their garlic roasted mashed potatoes, you'd be a little tense too.

Criticism is always welcome... but sometimes the style of criticism becomes unwelcome.

So you know, to be fair, if it weren't for us members, there wouldn't be as many ads, and the owners of this website would have to pay more in web costs out of their own pocket

Actually, it's a symbiotic thing. We're growing fast, in fact, few boards of any type have grown as fast as we have in the past three years (200,000 to 3.5 million posts). And not only are we growing fast, our guest-to-member traffic ratio is high, really high, like seven-to-one on average.

Why? Just over three years ago we decided to be more strict about forum moderation and take control of insults, swearing, illegal content, and similar issues. After that, we grew like mad. So, we could just as easily say, if it weren't for our moderation staff and tactics, you wouldn't have nearly as many members to interact with.

Anyways, your opinion is your opinion, and you are entitled to it. But respect and courtesy are not too much to ask.

Respect is earned.

Indeed.

If you dodge questions and fail to listen to the members who make this community what it is, then be ready to receive criticism.

Anyone who dodges questions deliberately, and fails to recognize 'important issues at hand', must be criticisized. Issues of any kind must be recognized, and dealt with in a timely fashion.

Personally, I'm a little tired of you moderators reminding us that this is a service provided to us for free, and that on any other message board we'd be out the door.

Not sure if you are having probs with a 'particular mod', or the fact that your questions are not being answered [in general] appropriately and in a timely fashion.

So you know, to be fair, if it weren't for us members, there wouldn't be as many ads, and the owners of this website would have to pay more in web costs out of their own pocket. So a little respect our way, and actually listening to suggestions, complaints, and criticism would be nice.

Members are part of the team

Without us...there wouldn't be an ATS site/forum.
We, as members have a responsibility to interact with others according to the Terms and Conditions that are required of us.

Not only that...

We rely upon each other to present [to our utmost] the best 'discernable facts' that are on the market today. We rely on the fact, that we will not go against the T&C's of this site, but bring to a general awareness - appropriate 'stories' - indiscriminate for others to decifer against/for.



[edit on 24-10-2007 by TheDuckster]

Originally posted by NovusOrdoMundi
If he violated a rule to get the post ban, then I fully understand it.

He did, and after being warned about the very rule... read back.

After reading this whole thread I feel like my would have been spent better by putting crushed glass under my eyelids and hooking electrodes to my fillings just for kicks.

Everyone, shut up and dance!




Now stop it.

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
I've attempted to discuss the point about the moved thread with Project_Silo via U2U,

Well, I've been in contact with him, and he is basically saying that you're dodging his questions.

So, I guess it's not my place to assume who's telling the truth. Only you two know that, and I'll leave it between you two.

But that's basically the assumption I've been operating under, since it seemed as if his efforts to prove his point were being suppressed.

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
you'd be a little tense too....

....but sometimes the style of criticism becomes unwelcome.

I can understand that. Some people do go overboard. However, I just hope that the one's who don't, their criticism and suggestions are taken into consideration and dealt with in a way that betters the community.

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
So, we could just as easily say, if it weren't for our moderation staff and tactics, you wouldn't have nearly as many members to interact with.

True. But I think if members were more able to dictate a positive direction of moving forward for the community, then it'd be even better than it is now.

Maybe members are able to dictate a positive direction, and my short amount of time being registered here is the reason I am unaware of such things. I'm basically just going by the way I've interpreted what I've seen in this thread.

Maybe you guys are just having a bad day and I've seen an off-your-game display.

EDIT: You don't have to respond to this SO, I've made my point and am done posting in here

Take care

[edit on 10/24/07 by NovusOrdoMundi]

reply to post by Techno Viking


I think that this response (while meaning to lighten the atmosphere) wasn't appropriate.

Originally posted by TheDuckster
Not sure if you are having probs with a 'particular mod',

I'm not. I think the moderation is good overall. But there are a few mods that are a little more confrontational in their moderating.

Originally posted by TheDuckster
reply to post by Techno Viking

 

I think that this response (while meaning to lighten the atmosphere) wasn't appropriate.

All I see are a lot of babies crying about not getting their way in the nursery. Really that's how it all looks. Sorry to be harshonyourarse but there it is man.

Originally posted by NovusOrdoMundi
But there are a few mods that are a little more confrontational in their moderating.

And a select few members are over-the-top confrontational in their method of voicing complaints as well. Sometimes when all you hear is yelling, your initial reaction is to yell too.

Anyway... one other point that needs to be clear... ATS IS NOT FOR EVERYONE. We know we're a closely moderated board when it comes to our expectations of civility and decorum from members, and our efforts to maintain logical silos of content. A great many people with experience on social media sites with lesser constraints have difficulty adjusting to how we run things. Some are unable to "get it" and quietly move on... but other noisily complain because they don't understand or can't. (Not saying this is the situation here, but I'm certain you know what I mean.)

In fact, I'd venture to guess that it takes a significant effort to become a new member on ATs... the learning curve for all our features is very high... the existing base of experienced members is vast and intimidating... the topics are foreboding... and we require civilized behavior... it ain't easy.

I cant say that I have had problems of note with the ATS staff as members of the board. Really the only thing that annoys me is that often when you ask questions you get seem to get accused of creating drama on the board but I let it go its not worth worrying about .
But the main issues I have are to do with the ATS election but that topic is for another thread.

What I think should be changed is the "out" of using the words "opinion/belief" in fourms of physics and real life. It would be fine in paranormal, mythical beasts, aliens or skunkworks forum. Its hard not to act like the angry german kid (on youtube) when you dig and research to prove that holograms and things like that are false only to have it overlooked. They will either weasel their way around the proof or ignore it and hope others do too and a few days later, they say the same thing in a different way.

Its like arguing with a woman who will not EVER admit shes wrong or even think logically, just repeats till she gets mad and then uses an out to have the last word. In this case, the last word is opinion and belief. You have digged to find proof that is acceptable to every one (even her) and all she's done is repeat and not let you get anywhere. It hurts, and you can't do it back to show them how it hurts, otherwise the cops come in and say "if you don't like it, you can leave" yet it is your home just as much as its hers. Thats what it FEELS like and because the mods don't want to get mad, they like to distance them selves from it and may not know how it feels.

Another sore spot is John Lear, who uses those spiteful polite ways of "stirring the pot" like saying "your input is much appreciated, thankyou and have a nice day" and "this is my oppinion". Yeah, he may seed alot of debate and the mods have mixed feeling about his opinions and methods, but the debates it does stir are like the paragraph above^.

Members having thier thread dumped while another was let through is off topic, but still very important. It makes the poster feel unaccepted/unloved lol, its not about the points.

I think what could be done is:

1. An opinion button. Any post that is opinion/belief and is in a FACT type fourm would have a user/mod button that can be pressed by either so that the members who want to deal with facts, get only the facts. If the member doesn't say its opinion or hit the button and its found out to be false = warn, hoax=timed ban with U2U reason. That way the members who come here looking for facts get them, the ones who don't need proof and only want a good read get that too and theres no anger.

2. If a mod throws a news topic to the trash/BTS. Then the 2 stroys should last 5 days and the one with more timely follow ups and activity stays and the other is moved to the trash or BTS (along with an explanation of whaa happan) The members in BTS are not as concerned about storys that NEED people to be concerned about (even if no public outcry will ever happen either way).

I don't like it when members are vague when they should be clean but then again it is in the aliens forum and have given up hope that he will finally find the soap.

www.youtube.com... Yes, there is swearing in it, no, filters probably won't get it and it really describes some of the "debates" here when one or both sides won't use logic or "trusted" sites.

Originally posted by twitchy
LOL do you really want to go there IgnoranceIsntBlisss? Your post history is public record here you know. That attitude is exactly the source of the problem here.

What are you implying??

What would I have to hide if it wasn't "public record"?? Or are you going to dig up some of my posts from 2 years ago?? Please do make an itemized listing from the beginning, and then be sure to show where I was right along with where I have been wrong in any absolutist statement. Good luck applying "lies" to me. I'm getting ansy to see what you have to point out.


Skeptic Overlord:
Speculation is one thing, but when you have John and his holy apostles make statements such as "there wasn't any evidence of planes whatsoever" after you just showed them listing of photos of engines on the streets and such, a page or so back, its completely different. Go read some of their stuff. They KNOW there was evidence of planes yet they persist in saying otherwise. Such examples aren't too hard to find.

[edit on 25-10-2007 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss]

No need to go digging into your post history, we all know who you are.
I'll spell it out for you...
I'm not implying anything, in a nutshell, I'm saying that you are a hypocrite, and your voracity, and your own usual lack of supporting evidence as a skeptic has been keenly observed and can more often than not, easily be taken as an offensive, if not predatory tone.
IMO, you're certainly not one to be trying to tell others how to conduct themselves in a thread.
Honestly I'm sick of you endlessly attacking johnlear and other people here. If you don't like what they have to say, say your piece, Disprove it, or move along, but lingering around slandering folks while calling them out to your impossibly subjective standards is a complete waste of our time and their bandwidth.
The first thing you did on this thread was start in on Johnlear adn how he shouldn't be on this site...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

You and some of the other broken records that come here demanding this and that from the conspiracy community as if we owe you any explinations, like some selfish child who just wants to argue without opening their eyes or ears long enough to see the world around them.
It's caused alot of grief here, grief that could be easily avoided if you would just learn some respect, or at the very least, some proper debate skills.
That's what I'm implying.


edit:

Originally posted by IgnoranceIsntBlisss
Speculation is one thing, but when you have John and his holy apostles

You should be warned for that. The fact that you aren't is Griff's beef, the fact that you think you can talk like that to other members in far better standing that you are is my beef.


[edit on 25-10-2007 by twitchy]

reply to post by twitchy




Thanks. I needed a laugh. And another thanks... I didn't consider myself famous. Thanks for the ego-stroke

I'm not implying anything, in a nutshell, I'm saying that you are a hypocrite

Hypocrite. Etc. Show me one example. Since my posts are on the "public record", and this reality you speak of is so obviously ongoing and unavoidable it shouldn't be too hard. In fact, I even challenged you so you resort to referencing this thread, and then you misrepresented me even in that instance. I never said he shouldn't be on this site, I asked how they're allowed to "operate here" because it's a fact that he and others regularly -if not daily- make knowingly false statements as I sated in my double-reply post above. Do you really need me to go and get you examples? Anyone familiar with debating him on that subject shouldn't need one. And if you do you obviously aren't familiar enough to hold such a staunch and defamatory opinion, which lands you right into precisely the same bracket you just filed me under.

Also applicable to your statement: Show where the burden of proof was on me yet I argued in absolutes without any supporting evidence. I'm pretty sure you won't have much luck, so I'll even make it easy on you: Show me anywhere in the last year that I spoke in absolutes period without having supporting evidence. Then, in case I did speak in absolutes without presenting the evidence on the spot, I wish you great luck in finding an example where I didn't already know such evidence existed for me to be pressing my position.

If you don't like what they have to say, say your piece, Disprove it, or move along, but lingering around

Ok, wait, after telling me that I'm a hypocrite, and then falsely slandering me, and then cynically stating that I'm "certainly not one to be trying to tell others how to conduct themselves in a thread", you're now telling me how to conduct myself in a thread? And that I don't have any debating skills either? What a joke. Since I'm famous, as you pointed out, is it stroking your ego telling me off? Well here's what may be a blow to your ego: Your hypocrisy is dripping & rabid, but you'll never be as much of a hypocrite as (or as famous as) Al Gore.

How dare I notice a thread about rule #1 of the T&C and point out an area where its a daily occurance.


PS: What irony now that I actually go back and follow Griff's original link only to find John Laer himself all over that page. I had originally just been skimming the thread and made note the T&C rule, and posted without digging too deep.

Originally posted by XL5
www.youtube.com... Yes, there is swearing in it, no, filters probably won't get it and it really describes some of the "debates" here when one or both sides won't use logic or "trusted" sites.

Man that was hilarious!

[edit on 25-10-2007 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss]

Originally posted by IgnoranceIsntBlisss

Thanks. I needed a laugh. And another thanks... I didn't consider myself famous. Thanks for the ego-stroke

Your very welcome.

Someone who wants threads removed or moved is someone who wants to dictate what we should read or not read. End of story.

I would like to make the choice of what to read and follow up on myself, thank you.

No member is forced to read a particular forum or thread on ATS. I avoid certain topics and threads because of lack of interest or lack of evidence and logical reasoning.

reply to post by Skyfloating


How can you say that?

If a thread is started about 9/11 in the paranormal forum and has absolutely nothing to do with the paranormal, are you suggesting that, if we move it to the 9/11 forum, then staff is somehow dictating what you can or cannot read?

It's still there, in a forum dedicated to the topic expressed in the OP.

Originally posted by masqua

How can you say that?

I am not talking about mods moving threads. When a mod moves a thread its because of wrong-topic. When a member is banned, its because of bad behaviour.

I am talking about regular members who want threads removed and posters banned...but not for the same reasons as the mods. They want stuff removed they dont AGREE with.

And thats something I cant stand. "Dont like the thread. Disagree with the poster. Thread must be removed".