The Palmarian Church - Anyone Familiar With These Guys??

Hi there..

I thought I should say that it was great reading about your experiences. I grew up in this order myself, and I am still affected by the teachings..

My mother was particuarly involved in the order, and still is to this day. I havent had any contact with my parents in 4 years due to the 'no contact' rule.

Keep up the thread..

Thanks..

Hi everyone!

Excellent thread! I'm interested in religions and was always curious about Palmarian Church because it's so mysterious and there isn't much information about it on the Web. Would you mind if I asked ex-Palmys some questions about the Church, its doctrine and practices?

My first question is about the Mass in Palmarian Rite. I've read on the Archidona group's website that this new rite was introduced in 1983 to replace the Tridentine Mass. I've also read there (and elsewhere also) that this new Palmarian Mass is very simplified and reduced almost to the words of consecration solely. But I didn't find any informations about how such Mass looks like.

So I would be glad if you told me: how long does it take to celebrate the Palmarian Mass? What does it contain besides the words of consecration (how it begins and how it ends)? Are there any chants, specific prayers (ex. "Our Father"), recitation of the Creed, benedictions, Scripture readings, psalms etc.? What about usage of incense (if yes, then in which moments is it used), holy water, Sign of the Cross etc.? Are there any changes made to conform specific Palmarian doctrines (ex. real presence of Mary in Communion) and if yes, than what are they like?

Do you remember any words from the Palmarian Mass and what generally man feels while attending such service (what's the atmosphere)?

There's also one thing which I must say. I love Palmarian priestly garments. I've never seen such beautiful robes! Do they in any way differ from pre-Vaticanum II Catholic robes? I've seen that bishops' mitres are much higher and more richly decorated than in Roman Catholic Church.

I know I'm very curious, but you are the only ones to whom I can ask such questions.

hello

i didnt mean to post this anonymously, im jus not sure how to join! My name is Sarah

I am amazed at what im reading here, ,as an ex member of the church, im still coming across new stuff on the net about the palmarians, and i have to say i find it very interesting.

I left the faith 7years ago, i had had enough of it. My mother is the only one left in the church, and as of 2007, 3 days before Christmas we havent seen her. Thats that.

I think I may be able to answer previous questions as to why Isidore banned pro palmy stuff on the internet. This is just my own personal opinion. I remember when growing up, as Im sure you do too Marker, nobody knew who palmarians were, nobody knew anything about them, even religion teachers in school, etc... However, I remember my mother braging about how palmar was going to go online. This was in 2007, shortly before she left the home. I remember her braging about how they were going to find so many new members through the net (probably adopting the opinion that there are "all sorts" of people online, particularly vunerable people who could be brainwashed)

Any anti-palmar sites I have since come across have never been dated further back than 2007, so Im guessing their move to the internet didnt have the desired effect. They got greedy, not content with the amount of people Isodore had to rip-off, he wanted more, but bit off more than he could chew when us ex-palmarians fought back, so i think he then decided to abandon ship. Thats just my opinion - i could be totally wrong

As for you Marker you say you live not too far from the Irish HQ of Palmar, is their main church still out where it used to be - dont want to give away where you live, but it begins with a C, yes?

You know, i never hated my mother for leaving us, the truth is i think the church turned her very cold (i never knew her before she joined - maybe she was always like that!!) But now that I hear all of this, i do worry about her. I never did before, i just always thought, ah well its her decision, but i now fear that much like your own father she is trapped somewhere she doesnt want to be, but has given up so much for, and is too proud to turn back.

Looking forward to hearing from people,

Sarah

Hello everyone,
I have a question and hope someone here can answer it for me... What about casinos? Can Palmarians go there? Are they allowd to gamble? Sorry, if I made any misstakes, English is not my first languich... Thank you.

Hey Guys!

Marker here - Ho sarah great to have you on board, yes I do live near (within walking distance) of the Irish Palmarian HQ & it does begin with a C. I

Just a very quick mail as I'm so busy but to answer the last posters question - Casino's are banned, they are in the same league as nightclubs (they always called them disco-tech's, so dated!!) and the like.

Sarah, are you Irish?

I'll write back soon


M

ps. Had to post anon, I've forgotten my password!!

Hey Guys!

Marker here - Ho sarah great to have you on board, yes I do live near (within walking distance) of the Irish Palmarian HQ & it does begin with a C. I

Just a very quick mail as I'm so busy but to answer the last posters question - Casino's are banned, they are in the same league as nightclubs (they always called them disco-tech's, so dated!!) and the like.

Sarah, are you Irish?

I'll write back soon


M

ps. Had to post anon, I've forgotten my password!!

Hey guys!

Great to see some new people coming forward! I havent been touching base for a while because of my business keeping me up all night!!

I'll try to answer some of your questions, although for the questions converning the Rites & Mass I will try to answer but perhaps Columba will clarify more clearly for me, as I'm only a lay person.

First off, SparkyOne thanks for posting, I'm sure you've read through the thread & gotten my story, its unfortunate we're all in the same boat, but learning about others does help & ease the tension / pain a little. And thanks for the encouragement on the thread it now has nearly 9,000 hits so comes high on a google search! (I can see this in my personal profile as the original creator, in case your wondering)

Hi Quazz,

I can only oiffer limited answers, the Mass the Palmarian say is first & formost the full Rosary, then there is also the Trisagion (I dont know if i spelt that correct) and teh Stations of the Cross, the short Rosary, only saying the Hail Marys, is frowned upon.

A rosary would last about an hour, Trisagion about half an hour & the Stations about 45 mins to an hour. At the end the priest would give a sermon, this could be anything for 5 mins to nearly an hour depending on the subject - always Palmarian Doctrine.

Some Bible readings (Palmarian Bible, they re-wrote it) but always, always Palmraian orientated passages etc.

Incense is used, only during Benediction. The Sign of The Cross is made constantly during Mass & all the faithful bless themselves, except they use the term "Holy Ghost" instead of the more usual "Holy Spirit". Holy Water is used in the usual fashion.

Your question about changes to shape Palmarian Doctrine, the answer is yes, absolutely, without a doubt, everywhere they could. They re-wrote the entire Bible & ordered the destruction of the "old" & false Bible that is used globally.

The feeling from Palmarian Mass? Humilty? Submission? I'm trying to remember here, I know when I acted as a altar boy I felt physically sick - no joke. More than once I had to leave the altar.

I understand that you admire the Robes & such, but take a moment to reflect where the money came from, its all theatrics, smoke & mirrors to make people feel there is a divine presence. But I do understand, some are stunning. And there is nothing wrong in asking questions, Deny Ignorance is the motto of this site

Hi Sarah,

My other answers should be in my anon post that is being reviewed by the mods, I'll check back in soon - in the meantime I'd like to thank everyone for posting, I'm glad to see this thread keep moving, so thanks again.

Be back soon & Quazz I hope I answered the questions to your satisfaction, Columba if you would like to clarify please do so!

Cheers Guys & keep up the posts - its encouraging for all involved.

Marker

It's very nice that you answered my questions! I'm interested in Christian liturgy, especially in different rites of it and I'd like to write an article on Wikipedia about the Palmarian rite.

From what you've written I see that Palmarian services are very tiring. But is it because of incomfortable position during worship (ex. standing or kneeling long hours) or maybe it has psychological basis (Palmarian Mass is so tiring psychically that the body also becomes exhausted)? I know this feeling of physical sickness from some very boring lectures at university: although I sit comfortably all the time I feel totally "kaputt" while leaving.

You've written also that Palmarian services consist mainly of saying the Rosary and also of the Trisagion. But what about Eucharistic parts of the liturgy ("Take, eat, for this is my Body...", communion tc.)? On the Archidona group's website it's written that instead of one 45-minute Tridentine Mass, 8 Palmarian Masses are said in this period of time. From this I understand that Palmarian Mass is very short. But it can also be understood that Palmarians have a custom of saying 8 such short Masses in a row. Is it going this way?

And about the Trisagion: I uderstand you mean the hymn "Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal, have mercy upon us". But some people also call by this name the Seraphic Hymn (the Sanctus): "Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord God of hosts..." So maybe you've meant this.

I'm a bit afraid of asking questions because from I read here I see that ex-Palmarians don't have nice memories concerning this cult so I don't want to hurt anyone. But I'm also very curious when it comes to things covered in a cloud of mystery. And Palmarian doctrine and customs fall into such category, so I try to get some information.

I must also say that I come from country (Poland) when there aren't any Palmarian chapels. But, strangely, Archidona group's website has Polish version. I was surprised that Polish language used on the website was correct when it comes both to grammar and vocabulary, even very precise theological terms. So it must be written by someone with perfect knowledge of Polish language. So maybe there are some Palmys (at least those dissident) here?

Anyway, I must admit that "pope" Clemente had a really great imagination. Those planets of Mary and Lucifer, those fancy dogmas (ex. immaculate conception of St Joseph), this idea of re-writing the Bible and idea that prophet Malachi was the Holy Ghost in human form... So strange!

Hi Marker,

Sarah here, yes I am Irish, and I live in Dublin, although quite far away from the HQ. I have a strong feeling that I may recognise you, if not you personally, most likely your family name, from your previous posts, the fact you were altar boy, and that your family had a chapel in their house - there are only so many people you could be!! I'd say i may have been in your house at one time.

Hi Quazz,

Just a quick one:

Your right, Seraphic Hymn is what it is as I recognise that chant from anywhere.

Communion would take place at a halfway point in the altar ceremony, the Rosary would break for this and all faithfull would kneel at the front pew for communion wafer placed on the tongue. Men first, women second.

As for the eight masses, I think the Archidona group may be referring to the masses held in the main HQ Basilica in Palmar. Generally Sunday Mass was the rosary with a sermon thrown in. You could also have benidicton or something else added on, but mostly just the rosary, so it would be about an hour and a half on average. In Palmar during the pilgrimages masses went on continuously from around 6pm - 2am, in Latin although the rosary back in Ireland was in English.

I almost must agree with Clementes having colorful ideas, although I have heard he listened to teh radio a lot & some of his favourite shows were sci-fi / conspiracy, so that may explain a lot!!!

also, dont be afraid to ask questions!! Asking questions got me out of it!



Marker






[edit on 25-5-2008 by marker3221]

reply to post by marker3221

I have an uncle still alive although old and he was some sort of bishop in this faith . it has torn half of my family into shreds.
come back to me if you want more info

Thanks for your answers, Marker!

I've found on the Archidona group's website some interesting Palmy documents. Among them I've read one in which it is said, that the words of the Mass shouldn't be translated in vernacular and must be kept in secret (faithful can't even have missals in Latin). I've also read that faithful can't sing liturgical responses and they have only special privilege (not right but privilege) to sing only a few hymns. It's also written there that even in private home chapels communion rails should be installed. I see that in Palmarian rite lay faithful are totally separated from the altar.

A few more observations: I see Clemente as a giant factory producing Saints. For him it's not a problem to beatificate a few hundreds of people at once. He also can in one document at first beatificate and than immediately canonize a person. Some traditionalists were making jokes of Pope John Paul II that he doesn't do anything but beatificates and canonizes all the time. But Clemente in one document canonized more Saints than John Paul II during his whole pontificate - and he did it not once, but several times!

Another thing is for me just stupid. Again and again I read in this documents: "We abolish this, we abolish that". Clemente canonized nearly all of his predecessors on the Papal throne but he was constantly abolishing their decisions. For example he abolished reforms in the Great Week made by Pius XII. About later popes he said that they were disinformed, drugged etc. But why did he also changed nearly everything which Pius XII and earlier popes have decided? Where's logic here? :bash:

I don't see also in these documents anything like love, pastoral care, warmth. Anything like these! I've read some encyclicals of popes (both pre- and post-Vaticanum II) and, also some sentences were very harsh, they touched my heart deeply many times. But in Palmarian Church documents everything is so cold: only dry rules and anathemas. Previous popes anathemized for some serious heresies. But Clemente, on the contrary, anathemized even because of unproper dress!

These are my observations. And I must say I'm terrified! This is probably the worst cult on the earth! When I read about Palmarian Church I see that even Scientology is thousands of times better. I think that only fundamentalist mormons can be compared to Palmarianism.

So I ask: do you have any pleasant memories connected with Palmarian Church? What kinds of pople are the priests? Are any of them nice, full of faith and charity? And do they really believe in all these Palmarian doctrines or can it be seen that they simulate?

[edit on 26-5-2008 by qazzz]

Hi Quazz,

Your correct about the altar rail, no-one except priests & selected lay-members were allowed to walk on the altar, always in robes. Women were not allowed period.

I cant answer your other questions about hymns and such asd I have no knowledge in this area, again some one like Columba may be able to help if & when he checks in.

There seems to be nothing Clemente loved to do (other than drink & have sexual relations with other priests) than to make a canonization or two, or 53. He seemed to have loved it, even made my grandfather a saint for gods sake.

Another thing you must bear in mind is that Clemente was an extremely disturbed & troubled individual, he was most certainly insane. His erratic behavior must also be understood from this viewpoint. (as much as I don't like to, it must be done) There is a story that in the 1980's Clemente doubted he was the true Pope & talked openly about leaving to live with his mother. (Whom he adored, hence it is the Crowned MOTHER of El Palmar & a bit less on Jesus) His mother went on the record in the Spanish press to say her son was "disturbed" - she was never a Palmarian.

And to summarize you last questions:

Do you have any pleasant memories connected with Palmarian Church? - Absolutely none what so ever, it was & still is totally destructive.

What kinds of people are the priests? - Some are genuine & mislead, poor individuals. Other are mislead but turn a blind eye & some are downright bas**rds.

Are any of them nice, full of faith and charity? - Yes, some are.

And do they really believe in all these Palmarian doctrines or can it be seen that they simulate? - Some do & some don't I have met ex-bishops who have left the faith, perhaps they may be better able to answer your question than I.

Hi Sarah,

If you wish to contact me outside of here get me on this anon email (with fake name)

[email protected]

I may know you also, if your Irish - in fact I''d put money on it!!


To the Anon poster,

I know the pain, my family has been shredded completely. I understand fully, perhaps by sharing it here you can find somewhere to vent. I know I have, sometimes its good to just get it out of your system! What country are you from? have you seen the Support Site or the factnet site?

Check back in


Marker

An edit just to say to the Anon poster that I greatly appreciate your posts, keep them coming as they keep the thread alive. I know it takes a lot of courage to post & I greatly appreciate it.

Plus the anon facility they have put in greatly helps so a nod to the site owners also.

All the best

Marker

[edit on 26-5-2008 by marker3221]

It seems that Palmarians are really crazy when it comes to proper way of dressing. This is dress which allows you to stand near the altar or to enter Palmarian home. Total madness! Length of skirts etc. where made focal points of Church teaching.

I see from discussions here that, although Palmarian doctrine is really wacky, it lies deeply in the shadow of those complicated rules, most of which concern proper dress. You say that Clemente had homosexual relations with other priests - and very often it goes this way, that when someone is more promiscuous he is also externally more prudish.

I also have a question concerning Palmarian Bible. Is it much changed or only a few verses are alternated? Have you read any parts of it?

And did Clemente also write a book entitled "History of the Popes"? I've read somewhere that in this book it's written that most of the Popes where murdered, mostly by poisoning.

[edit on 26-5-2008 by qazzz]

Hi Quazz,

I have to be super quick, No I have never read a copy of the Palmarian Bible. It was issued after I left the Cult. I have seen copies but never got my hands on one so I do not know the exact content other than whispers I heard.

Yes, I have heard of Clemente's claims of the other Popes, but again only through whispers, overheard conversations while I still lived with my family etc


I must go now but please post any more questions and I will answer properly tomorrow when I have more time!!

Thanks

Marker

All this is very interesting. Very strange cult...

Could you explain to me the rules concerning mass media (newspapers, radio, TV, internet)? Is it all totally forbidden or maybe sometimes Palmarians can watch TV programmes? What about the news? From which sources Palmys know what's going on over the world?

And the rules against sunbath, swimming etc. Can a Palmarian faithful take a sunbath/seabath in a place where no one watches him? For example on a very isolated beach where he/she is alone? Is it then also considered a sin?

And what Physical Education or Games at school? What do Palmy children do with all these situations when they must undress because school curriculum demands so? Are there any dispensations?

From all these rules I see that Palmys practically cannot play any sport. Is it true?

And abou male and female codes of dress. Are men forbidden to cover their legs with anything else than trousers? I mean a hypothetic situation of Arab who converts to Palmarian Church. Must he then wear "european" trousers or maybe traditional oriental garments are OK?

Another question is about sacred images. I've read that that all people shown on them must be dressed according to Palmarian rules. But what about the crucifix? Do Palmarians also dress Jesus on the cross or is he still shown naked? If yes, is it the only special exception or are there any other?

All this is for me very absurdal so some questions may be a bit stupid. But it's intresting how do they explain all this stuff. And maybe they don't explain it at all? But anyway there must be at last some appearances of logic because no one would then believe in such absurds.

Hi Quazz,

Sorry I haven't been able to answer, work gets in the way

Just to start, there is a saying that I heard Stanley Kubirk Quote:

"There is no such thing as a stupid question - only stupid answers"

So bear that in mind; I'll try to answer your questions & please ask as many as you wish, I'll answer any & all to the best of my ability & memory.

Concerning Mass Media, the priest often lecture in his sermons at the end of mass (as mentioned before) about the "dangers" of television & that it has no place in the home etc etc. He would stop short of banning them but say that they have no place in a Palmarian home. We didn't do it as my father was a slouch / couch potato & watched it all day. The Internet got worse treatment, but again during my time (before broadband) they didn't ban it, just constantly lectured against it.

I seen this as mind conditioning leading up to a ban, they are subtle like this, as an out-right ban without warning would cause revolt & people would leave etc.

Just before I was asked to leave the home due to the new rules concerning dress codes, TV had been banned.

Well, watching it was.

If the person on the TV was not dressed like a Palmarian then they could not watch it, same with newspapers, they would tear out the "indecent" photos constantly, many a time I picked up a paper to read & it was full of holes!!

My family resorted to watching the TV with teletext on, this I seen by looking around the door - idiotic... _javascript:icon('')

But I know my father went to my uncles house to watch it without telling anyone - good Palmarian huh?

A Palmarian cannot expose themselves in a public place period. Not even their own home unless changing or showering etc, so swimming was banned completely, even if in private due to "decency" rules.

For PE, a letter would be sent to the school explaining the dress code & we would be excused for PE classes & religion classes. (I loved this as I got free time off )

A Palmarian MUST stick to the dress code, the full list I posted perviously, I'll post it again but it can be found at www.palmardetroya.org - an excellent site set up by an ex-Palmarian.

Arab dress is out because the Palmarian HATE muslims & see them as the scourge of the Earth, along Communists, Masons, Jews & just about everyone else who isn't Palmarian.

A Palmarian can play sport so long as he is within the dress code. Which is impossible.

The images, yes I raised this very question with a Palmarian & he couldn't give me an answer, it is absolutely absurd. They still worship the semi naked Jesus on the cross, that is an exception, they would have an excuse for it somewhere... Other images were ordered to be destroyed as the Palmarians were issuing their own. I saw many being burned at my home just before I left the house (2005) just before Clemente died.

I honestly think he was planning something big but died before he could carry it out.

I've got to go now, look back over the thread for the dress code, I'll post again soon as soon as I have time.

Thanks for your questions & interest Quazz, its well appreciated & anyone else reading wish to ask a question or share their experiences, please do.

Sorry about bad spelling, I am in a rush - apologies

All the Best,

Marker

Palmarian Theology picture reference below:



[edit on 30-5-2008 by marker3221]

[edit on 30-5-2008 by marker3221]

What you say, Marker, is very disturbing. You said that total ban on TV would cause a revolt. But don't you think that banning any contact whit family members who left the sect is something much worse than banning TV? When it comes to media, they are subtle, but when it comes to contacts with closest relatives, they are very strict. It seems that it's harder to throw out TV than own children, at last for some people.

But, anyway, I think that Palmarian Church is one of the worst cults on the world. People say that Scientologists, Hare Krishnaits, Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses are dangerous and mind-controlling sects. I think that they simply haven't heard of Palmarian Church. One of my friends is Jehovah's Witness and she is "normal", just like my other friends (not celebrating birthday isn't something that matters much).

Again about internet: is it allowed for such things as, for example, checking the bus timetable or looking for a job? I mean all things where internet is necessary for something practical, not connected with entertainment etc. What do you think, can a Palmarian faithful work as a webmaster? Is it allowed for Palmys to work on a position that demands much use of internet?

I must also say that I cannot imagine summer with wearing long sleeves and shirt buttoned to the neck. Even here in Poland I cannot stand the heat, even when I wear a T-shirt I momentally get wet (for example today, it was horrible, and I had to go by overcrowded bus). And in Mediterranean climate it would be for me impossible to go out of the house at day in summer while being dressed according to Palmarian rules. How can they live such way in sunny and hot Seville?

You Marker, are from Ireland, am I right? So climate in your country is mild, but anyway, how did you feel being dressed Palmarian? Wasn't it to hot in summer? On www.palmardetroya.org I've read a testimony of a Palmarian woman who lived in Africa and she felt horrible because Palmarian rules of dress didn't fit the climate.

Hi Quazz,

I just want to clarify some things I said, just so it wont get skewed or misinterpreted, the Palmarian Church indeed it is a Cult, a highly destructive & dangerous one, but it is not the worst. (The recent polygamy Cult raid in Texas USA for instance) But it is ranked quite highly in my opinion. At least their is no child sex abuse or rape (that I know of) or worst of all murder / mass suicide.
Although I will add it is my personal belief that they are capable of all of these acts, but they have not carried them out.

Also in regards to TV, the sermons I mentioned regarding TV date back to to around 1995, at this point they were only talking about TV, a revolt is perhaps too strong a word, dissent amoung the ranks / questioning of motives may be a better term.

Also just to say that they have NOT banned speaking to family members (except for Ex-Palmarian family members (we hold a special rank of contempt) they have said that you cannot speak to them unless they are dressed like a Palmarian. Which we all know pretty much cancels out everyone, with a few exceptions. So they have put the onous on the family member who wont conform to their rules. So the blame is then put on the family member who wont dress accordingly.

Its an in-direct way of severing communication as they are betting that people wont dance to to the Palmarian tune & they are mostly right.

They know exactly what they are doing, getting up on the pulpit & banning contact outright would cause revolt (no mis meaning there) so they do it in a round about way.

In regards to the Internet, supervised / controlled usage is allowed. (As far as I am aware)

And all communication woth oher people outside family members must be kept to an absolute minimum, such as say work related, no personal chit-chat or relationships are to be struck up.

If anyone sees anything incorrect with what I have typed, please feel free to clarify, I may be wrong on certain points.

Although I despise the Palmarian Church, I feel the truth must be told, in all forms.


Marker

About banning contacts with family members I've meant those who left the sect. From what I read here I understand that any contact with them is totally forbidden, is that true?

I also agree that this sect in the USA is worse. As I remember they are fundamentalist mormons who still practice polygamy, did you mean this?

You see, I don't have any experience with such sects. I only know personally one Jehovah's Witness and many people say that Jehovah's Witnesses are a dangerous cult. But I disagree. They may have strange believes or practices but they aren't isolated from the world. The same thing with, for example, Rosicrucians or Hare Krishna. You, Marker, have been in a cult, so what do you think? Can we say that Jehovah's Witnesses, Rosicrucianism or Hare Krishna are really dangerous sects?

I see a tendency that every new religious movement is automatically labeled as a "cult". Even such open and affirming religion as Bahai Faith. For me it's total madness.

[edit on 1-6-2008 by qazzz]