The Palmarian Church - Anyone Familiar With These Guys??

Hey Guys,

I was wondering have any of you guys heard or have direct experience with The Palmarian Catholic Church.
This is a splinter Catholic group based in the Desert of Spain just south of Seville.

In the late 1960's three young girls witnessed an apparition of the Virgin Mary above an Olive tree in a field just outside the village of Palmar De Troya, from this incident many "Seers" came and a large congregation gathered to pray etc.

Among these people came two Spanish individuals, Clemente Dominguez y Gomez (an accountant with an erratic history) & Alonso Manuel Corral (a shrewd Lawyer). These two guys in particular Clemente rose to become the leaders of what transformed from a congregation of religious people into a full blown Cult with Clemente crowning himself Pope (Gregory XVII) with Corral as his Secretary of State (Fr Isidore).

Clemente claimed visions, prophecies & staged stigmata &Y other scared wounds, he also lost his eyes in a car crash & was blind from 76 until 05 when he died & now Corral heads it up as the new Pope (Peter II)

Does anyone here know anything of these guys? I was brought up in this Cult and have personally met Clemente & Corral & know of the corruption that lies within the heart of the organization & wish to strike up a conversation regarding this subject.

If anyone has any questions please ask away - or if anyone was a member of the Plamarian Church please leave comments, you can check these guys out on wikipedia for more info.

They also called themselves The Order of the Carmelites of the Holy Face.

Thanks

Comments are welcome

Marker

Can not say that I have heard of this group. If it is not asking too much could you possibly share some your experiances in this cult? IMO a religious group lead by a "shrewd lawyer" and an "accountant with a erratic history" can not be a good thing (not to mention I think accountants are about as evil as they come ). Nice post and I look forward to the discussion that is to follow!

Hi tetsujin420,

I grew up in the Cult until i was 16 and left.

The Group was headed up by Clemente, the charismatic prophet who recieved regular visions from God, telling him about the future World War & his role in defending the Earth from the Anti-Christ.

Corral was the guy who took care of all their propaganda, money raising & basically traveling the world to lay Palmarian members to ask for money (I later found out he took this upon himself because he enjoyed the "red carpet" treatment he received & liked to get away from the HQ in Seville.

The Cult was in its Heyday in the 1980's, after which membership began to decline, bishops who Clemente consecrated were expelled on his orders & people began to leave.

My personal experience involved traveling to their Basilica in the Spanish Desert & meeting each first hand, I've also witnessed how this Cult has torn families apart,
including my own.

The Basilica is huge, all built on peoples donations - he became a minor infamous figure of ridicule in Spain & their has been a few Spanish investigative reports on the Cult.

They have members from around the world, in particular, Germany, Ireland & the USA.

Any more questions ask away

Do a search on them to get more info - I cant get links to work!!!

Marker






[edit on 3-10-2007 by marker3221]

[edit on 3-10-2007 by marker3221]

Thank you very much! It sounds like a couple guys who thought of a way a large amount of money by scamming the devout people of Spain. It's a shame that it took off like it did . It just seems wrong that a guy who calls himself "Pope" whould allow entire familys to be torn apart in the name of his "Religion" (at least thats how I understood it, I could be wrong). Again thank you for your posts

Yeah,

Their past is crazy, Clemente tried to commit suicide when he was 18 by throwing himself from a train, him & Corral shared an office together before they became Cult leaders.

They consecrated many bishops & built a movement, mass recruitment drives through the 80"s.

Unfortunately Clemente drank most of the money that was handed over (looking at the Basilica they built you can only imagine how much that was!!) while Corral was responsible for laundering the rest through some shady deals with Spanish cons.

These guys basically took over & created this Cult from the ground up, its only now (with Clemente's death) that it is falling apart.

Its amazing the info on these guys, you could make a movie from it but sadly it is at the expense of others that these stories exist.


any questions please ask, there is so much that I could fill several pages!!









[edit on 4-10-2007 by marker3221]

Originally posted by marker3221


Its amazing the info on these guys, you could make a movie from it but sadly it is at the expense of others that these stories exist.



[edit on 4-10-2007 by marker3221]

What kind of things took place other then the whole taking large sums of money away from the mislead? Do these guys (guy now) have the Spainish Gov't in there pockets? I'd ask more but I wouldn't know were to start.

Hi,

Well I'll give you an example, Clemente was a known homosexual & while denouncing homosexuals from his pulpit he was blatantly asking vunerable bishops to stay back after evening meals to perform sex acts on him.

This went on for years, with all bishops in full knowledge of what was happening but because Clemete called himself a "poor sinner" they accepted it as God "chooses the weak to confound the wise".

This type of talk was typical of the man & palmarians in general, their techniques for brainwashing were very effective.

In 2000 several bishops were expelled from the order, Clemente claimed that their had been an assaination attempt on him & Satan had infiltrated the Church (be careful, nowhere is safe)

I later found & spoke to one of the bishops (the number two name on the list Clemente released, 18 in all) he told me that they grew concerned about Clemente.

They communicated their concerns to each other about his mental stability (let me mention that at this point they still believed in him, only that he may have been losing it in his later years) in secret until Clemente got wind of it & he and the other 17 were expelled & an elaborate story of assasins in the night with Clemente foiling a plot on his life was concocted to display Clemente as the saviour once again & ensure that if the bishops talked they would not be believed as Satan had infiltrated them & their stories of homosexuality in the Church was a lie.

(he made several "jokes" of how a blind man, himself, sen through this demonic plot)

Several of the bishops were spat on on the street by palmarians who they considered to be friends when they tried to approach them to tell them the truth.

It was only after their expulsion when Clemente claimed to have recieved a vision from Mary praising him for his courage that most of these poor souls realized they had been conned all along & ALL the visions had been false.

I have copies of his sermons where he boasts about how he foiled the plot - its actually funny to read, but tragic.

He also re-wrote the bible and had reguar heavenly visions where he put on a show to the palmarian public, one of which I have on video, its so bad your thinking how do people actually believe this stuff (but I did at one point).

here are some photos for you guys to take a look at what I'm talking about:


Clemete being carried on Throne

Corral as Pope Peter II

Clemente displaying self inflicted Stigmata

Clemente in hospital just after they removed his eyes

Clemente having an intense "vision"

Another shot from the same "Vision"

Basilica Ext

Basilica Int

Clemente & Corral standing on the spot where the Basilca stands now


I have quite a few more, does anyone on here know of these guys or anyone involved with them?

Marker

Interesting to note the wounds on his forehead in the "vision" photo, apparently from Christ placing the Crown of Thorns on his head - in reality self inflicted with a Razor Blade..

[edit on 6-10-2007 by marker3221]

[edit on 6-10-2007 by marker3221]

[edit on 6-10-2007 by marker3221]

Thanks for bringing this to my attention.

Your information is much more specific that the Wikipedia article on this group. I have a couple of questions.

1). The wikipedia article mentions hallucinagenic drug use. What do you think? The article also doesn't know anything about the church before 1975, and almost totally neglects the original visions of children . . . .

2). Can you name some of the ways this group differs from other movements? the article mentions that one of the leaders "rewrote the Bible," but gives no specifics. Is that true? Did they develop special ascetic practices? Did they encourage stigmata or self-mutilation? Have a unique theology?


Thanks for sharing with this. very interesting.

Hi Strangecraft,

I had heard of the the use of drugs but have never got confirmation. to my understanding there was none (at least in the 1980's to 1990's)

Although Clemente was suspected of suffering from epilepsy of the frontal lobe, which causes "visions" and behavior of importance and Messiah tendencies. One of the ex Bishops who knew Clemente well was presented with 5 characteristics of someone who suffers from frontal lobe epilepsy and he pointed out that Clemente possessed all 5.

That for me as an interesting point because it raises the question did Clemente really believe his own teachings? I do know that in the early 90's he talked of giving it all up to go live with his mother!!! He said he doubted his own legitimacy!

As for their doctrine, they started out fairly normal extreme Catholics but by the end Clemente was talking of martydom - luckily he died before he brought it any further!

I find this fascinating and would love to hear more - unfortunately, I am not knowledgeable enough about this to ask intelligent questions. What started this off shoot of the Catholic Church? Can you tell us more of Clemente wanting to leave the church? How did you come to the realization that the wounds were self inflicted?

More pictures, please! The Basilica is so beautiful, and the robes so elegant and elaborate - I can only imagine the amounts of money poured into building that. Were the funds solely from the parishioners? Was there any funding coming from Roman Catholic sources?

Hi,

The offshoot started after 3 girls witnessed some type of vision in a field (interesting to note they severed all ties with the Palmarian Church & Clemente & are still living in Spain, occasionally they talk to the Spanish press)
Many faithful came to pray at the spot, similar to Knock in Ireland or The Lady of Fatima - Clemente & Corral along with another Spaniard (I only know him as Fr Elias, more on that guy later) came along when they heard of this place in the South where the Virgin Mary was appearing.

Clemente soon began to have visions of his own and many followed him although some of the original Seers (original leaders for want of a better word) accused him of false visions from the start, he expelled them. He was apparently a very charismatic person & many fell under his spell, look at the photo where he still has his eyes, you can catch a glimpse of the power or attraction they may have had to a vulnerable person.

As for his stigmata, I have a photo of him lying on the ground drenched in blood from his wounds, during that night the Spanish media were present & they claim to have seen Clemente with a shard of glass in his hand, next minute he collapses down bleeding from wounds that magically appeared, the Spaniards tried to tell the believers that were present but unfortunately very few of them spoke Spanish as they were from Ireland, Britain, Germany etc.

Also an ex-Bishop told me he witnessed Clemente with wounds on his forehead that only a blind man with a razor could make, very quickly & not convincing.

As for re-writing the Bible, he said Christ had told him to correct the false information & Clemente dictated the Palmarian version through his Visons with Christ, his team of writers scribbled every word, when there was a disagreement Clemente would go into his room come out 10 mins later & claim Christ came to him with the answer, always the answer was the one he argued for, hence suspicions were raised.

I will try find that photo, I have it somewhere

Marker


HERE'S THE PHOTO:

Clemente drenched in Blood while receiving Stigmata




[edit on 6-10-2007 by marker3221]

ps. All I know of Clemente wanting to leave is what I said, that he talked openly of leaving to live with his mother (who incidentally was not a follower of her son & described him as "disturbed" to the Spanish media)

All funding came from donations, several people were very rich & gave vast amounts, I heard of one Boston woman who in her will left millions (I'm not sure of the exact figure but I think it was somewhere between 10-20 million, I could be corrected on that figure though)

At their height one could only imagine the amount of money they brought in, as well as the Basilica, statues, robes etc; Clemente & his closest confidants went out almost every night & spent thousands on having a good time, apparently one restaurant in Seville added an extension specifically to accommodate them.

There are also stories of Corral walking around with plastic bags full of notes, putting them through all their bank accounts, at this point it was not illegal to have several bank accounts in the same name, they are also tax-exempt as a religious organization, they had to remove the word Cult from their teachings to gain this title. They actually used to use the term in describing themselves.

Marker

On a footnote, a connection you guys may find interesting:

"Sinéad O'Connor went through a form of ordination in a Lourdes hotel bedroom. The ceremony was performed by Thucite "Bishop" Michael Cox, who claims to be bishop superior of the Irish Orthodox Catholic and Apostolic Church (cf. The Irish Times, May 5, 1999).

Cox's consecrator was "Bishop" Ciaran (Kevin?) Broadbery who, according to "Bishop" Pat Buckley (The Irish Times, April 29, 1999) was "laicised by the Bishop of Ferns and is now married."

"Bishop" Broadbery was consecrated by then "Bishop" Clemente Gómez who, upon the death of Pope Paul VI, declared himself to be Pope Gregory XVII of the Holy Palmarian Church.

Good Pope Gregory himself was consecrated by Archbishop Ngo Dinh Thuc, former Archbishop of Hue. Archbishop Ngo Dinh Thuc earned for himself and for all those consecrated by him and their consecrands ipso facto excommunication for consecrating a bishop without a papal mandate."

Source



So, Sinead O'Connor's ordination came in a direct line from Clemente Dominguez y Gomez - head of the Palmarian Church.

[edit on 6-10-2007 by marker3221]

They actually called themselves a cult?
OMG
In the pictures, it seems totally vaticanized!

What was it that Clemente & Co. promised these wealthy members, in order to persuade them so smoothly into surrendering so much capital?

The wound on his side looks way too surgically precise - too straight and neat, don't you think? And he looks just a bit too cheerful to convince me. Don't many who experience stigmata say that it hurts? I can't recall for sure but it seems like I had read or heard that.

It seems profoundly karmic to consider that he (allegedly/probably) falsely reported visions as *truth from GOD* and now has lost his eyes - the accident didn't seriously hurt him otherwise, did it? If it did, what? Do you know any more details of the accident?

It really added to the theatrical affect of *penitent-shepherd-charlatan* though, didn't it?

Dr Strangecraft,

In response to your question

Did they develop special ascetic practices?

Heres is a list of rules that Palmarian's have to follow:

1. Woman may not wear trousers.
2. Shorts are banned
3. It is forbidden to wear any shirt or similar garment with short sleeves.
4. Sleeves can only be rolled up for the duration of any work such as washing dishes etc.
5. Females must wear skirts no shorter than two fingers width below the knee.
6. Tights are banned as they are classed as mens attire. Female teens and adults may only wear stockings, female children only socks.
7. Female babies cannot wear all in one baby suits.
8. Shirts and blouses must be buttoned to the neck.
9. You cannot play any sport that requires you to wear short sleeves or shorts.
10. Visiting beaches is banned.
11. All voting banned. e.g. Local and general elections, referendums etc.
12. Visiting and using swimming pools is banned.
13. Visiting night clubs is banned
14. Denim cloth is banned, therefore wearing jeans is banned.
15. Listening to popular / modern music is banned.
16. Watching boxing matches is banned.
17. Attending non-Palmarian religious services such as weddings, funerals, christenings etc is banned, for all non Palmarians even family.
18. Males are banned from dying or bleaching hair
19. Males cannot wear ear jewelry or other face jewelry.
20. Receiving organ transplants is banned.
21. Leaving or providing organs for transplant is banned.
22. All contraception is banned.
23. Disco’s are banned.
24. Later introduced in addition to rule 16, All functions associated with non Palmarian religious services such as wedding breakfasts, evening functions, i.e. social functions before or after, christenings, weddings, funerals etc are banned you cannot attend even if function is family or relatives.
25. Later above rule no. 5 was changed to increase the length of skirts below the knee from 2 to 4 or 5 fingers width.
26. Children must be told Christmas presents are from parents and not Santa Claus as he doesn’t exist
27. New Bible introduced, any copies of any other bibles must be burnt. This bible was authored in Spain and has many changes in comparison to the standard bible.
28. TV programs that have people or cartoon characters outside the Palmarian dress code may not be watched. In effect this is most television, it would encompass news, documentaries, etc. etc.
29. No social contact with any persons not dressed to the Palmarian dress code. This in effect means virtually all non-Palmarians.
30. Nobody allowed in the home if not dressed to Palmarian dress code except workmen.

31. In work, contact with non-palmarian co-workers must be kept to a minimum, i.e. only talk to when necessary to carry out the job and no social chat.
32. Only religious books approved by Palmar are allowed all others banned and must be burnt. This in effect means virtually any non Palmarian authored book is banned.
33. Any photos/images with priests who have left the order must be burn/destroyed.
34. Religious films are banned.
35. All prayers and hymns not contained in the Palmarian missal are banned
36. Birthday candles on birthday cakes are banned.
37. Contact with anyone including relatives who are living with partners and not married is banned. This would include all marriages outside the Palmarian Church since the early 1980's as these marriages are considered invalid.
38. Throwing coins in a fountain/well/water is banned.
39. Children must be removed to another room from their classes where non palmarian religious instruction is given.
40. Horoscopes are banned
41. Movies containing references to magic are banned.
42. The neckline of a shirt or blouse etc must when worn be at least 2 fingers width above the breast bone.
43. Christmas trees are banned.
44. Images of Santa Claus are banned
45. Giving or opening presents on Christmas day (25th December) is banned.
46. Christmas presents must be given and opened on the feast of the Epiphany

HI,

Regarding the Car accident, there were 3 or 4 people in the car late at night, Clemente in the front passenger seat, when the car was overtaken by "demonic forces" and went off the road & hit a tree or pole, the glass from the shattered windshield lacerated Clemente's eyeballs & they had to be removed. The other in the car emerged unhurt as far as I know. Other than his loss of sight he had only minor injuries that healed quickly.

The whole thing is Vaticanized so that the faithful (who defected to Palmar in the light of Vatican II) would believe that Clemente was carrying on the "True Church" Thats how he hooked his followers.

As for the stigmata I totally agree with your observations, he's showing it off with pride for the onlookers & cameras. That particular wound came from the incident with the shard of glass that I mentioned earlier.

He wasn't too happy about his eyes though, he never got to see his mini empire for himself, he used to get drunk and go into depression over his blindness, I've been told.

On a last note he claimed to the Palmarians that the Virgin Mary appeared to him during Mass & for his great service offered him his eyesight back, but good oul' Clemente said No. He would wait a little longer for penance.

Convenient huh?

Oh yes,

he offered everyone that they would be spared in the coming war with the Anti-Christ, where he would become a Military Leader & Emperor & lead Gods army to victory, take back Jerusalem, march into Moscow & convert them all to Palmar, Oh and of course, Moses himself would come down from the Planet of Mary to fight alongside him.

All that is true!!

[edit on 6-10-2007 by marker3221]

[edit on 6-10-2007 by marker3221]

[edit on 6-10-2007 by marker3221]

The frontal lobe epilepsy thing has been remarked by some concerning Mahammad. Not meaning to insult anyone's faith, just making an observation.

This whole discussion is really interesting to me. Does the Palmarian Church use the Tridentine Mass (the one before Vatican II), or have the "evolved" into something else?

.

They say all mass in Latin, everything.

They say the Rosary everday & have other Masses that the devised, every Easter & Christmas they have a week of praying where all the faithful from around the world congregate at the Basilica. This is how I met Clemente, Corral & other Bishops.

The Basilica is surrounded by a huge wall with only one gate in, this is guarded by men with machine guns & guard dogs (I'm not kidding here, I seen it myself).

In my opinion & experience with these guys they are very dangerous & just prior to Clemente's death his sermons were becoming more militant & martyrdom references were commonplace. I shudder to think what he would have done if he had lived.

Corral (now Pope Peter II) I'm not sure about, I don't think he likes being Pope, he preferred to run the show from behind the scenes.

[edit on 6-10-2007 by marker3221]

Originally posted by marker3221
(..)when the car was overtaken by "demonic forces" and went off the road & hit a tree or pole, the glass from the shattered windshield lacerated Clemente's eyeballs & they had to be removed.

Methinks perhaps those demonic forces came in the form of a bottle full of spirits...just total speculation, of course. Gossip even. Shame on me.

The other in the car emerged unhurt as far as I know. Other than his loss of sight he had only minor injuries that healed quickly.

Aha! Another point supporting karma, IMO.

The whole thing is Vaticanized so that the faithful (who defected to Palmar in the light of Vatican II) would believe that Clemente was carrying on the "True Church" Thats how he hooked his followers.

Oh. Makes sense from a sociological point of view. Very sneaky.

Convenient huh?

Indeed.

Oh yes,

he offered everyone that they would be spared in the coming war with the Anti-Christ, where he would become a Military Leader & Emperor & lead Gods army to victory, take back Jerusalem, march into Moscow & convert them all to Palmar, Oh and of course, Moses himself would come down from the Planet of Mary to fight alongside him.

The Planet of Mary?
Right. Last I heard, Moses lived on Mercury.

All that is true!!

Oh, I totally believe you. Sad to say I don't doubt it a bit. :shk:

Me again.

mine are more mundane fluffy questions... Aside from modesty, do you have any insight behind the reasoning of the dress codes? Why was denim forbidden? Why no short sleeves, and why must they not be rolled except whilst working? And I am guessing that for female infants, the one piece suits would be considered a pantsuit?