The Chinese are preparing for a War

Originally posted by antar
reply to post by FredT

 

Thanks for the warning about not giving my oppinions to the trolls. Im done here!

And if you are not willing to uphold the constitution, then move to Australia.

Well firstly, Im not a US citizen, Im a Canadian, therefore I have no desire to uphold the US constitution because it does not apply to me.

Secondly, What does upholding the US constitution have to do with this thread?

Dont leave, I think we can turn this thread around, lets all just keep level heads. Its ATS, we can all act our age here.

Thanks
Ah yes sorry for not elaborating on this point. Its really quite simple, its a ploy that has been used for centuries: Demonization.
By utilizing fear tactics (the Reds will take your family and kill your mother), isolating and controlling the flow of positive and negative media (if you look, not one positive thing was mentioned in US national media about the wonderful strides the communist era brought to an oppressed people. See: Czarist russia and the White guards.) And finally denegrating all supporters to the level of terrorists and inhumane creatures, you have effectively created a stigma that will last in popular thinking so long as you occaisionally re-enforce the image from time to time.

Its not anything new, and it certainly hasnt been put to rest.

But most of the people now would probably be too young to remember that kind of propeganda.

Im wondering whether anti communist propeganda still exists within US society.

I would be tempted to say that anti communism exists in Capitalist society, but why is it that no other Capitalist society seems to be as anti communist as the US?

IMO, no. While popular image is that China is a true Communist country (and this is an image they present aswell) the image is far from the truth. "Free-market" penetration has taken roots in China and will continue to spread untill it no longer resembles any Socialist system. If China attacks the US with military force, it will be Capitalist vs. Capitalist. However, the propaganda machine will spin its cogs and put it into a red vs. blue, Commie vs. democracy. Or more acurately, Communist vs. Capitalist.

The Communist system with Free market is one of the 'utopia' sytems many philosophers have dreamed about.

Although this would be ignored in the case of war.

I wonder what Chinese propeganda would do to demonize the Americans? (if anything is needed )

Its better (for "them") to obfuscate the issue and have the people point fingers at each other in the dark, than have them organize and analyze the issues of foreign policy, foreing capital penetration, foriegn occupation, and foreign destruction.

Ah i didnt mean that. I mean i remember seeing News casts from the cold war period where declaring a person a communist with no proof or even relevance was a natural occurence.

Like in the case of Huey Long, a black child who was brutally killed by white KKK members. In the back and forward trial many of those involved were declared to be communists.

It was all just a witch hunt.

No, nothing to do with honour. It is a popular image from the 50's re-enforced from time to time with horror stories and dogmatic rhetoric. Just another brainwash for the North American Public.

Sorry, i had to run and finish my post on a word last time.

By honour, i meant Justice, or revenge. Your army killed my father/grandfather etc.

Thanks for the warning about not giving my oppinions to the trolls. Im done here!

And if you are not willing to uphold the constitution, then move to Australia.

We'd be glad to have you

Well firstly, Im not a US citizen, Im a Canadian, therefore I have no desire to uphold the US constitution because it does not apply to me.

Secondly, What does upholding the US constitution have to do with this thread?

Dont leave, I think we can turn this thread around, lets all just keep level heads. Its ATS, we can all act our age here.

And not accuse each other of being less age than we actually are

Anyway, 'defending the US constitution' is used to legitemise many of the US conflicts, its attaching a higher purpose, a reason to make the soldiers fight.

reply to post by keops


The bank has to be open for them to cash in. Get my drift? A cash in like that would not be permitted period. It would be considered a threat to national security and Not one piece of crap from China would be bought in this country again. They would be the big looser in a move like that.

Originally posted by Sky watcher
reply to post by keops

 

The bank has to be open for them to cash in. Get my drift? A cash in like that would not be permitted period. It would be considered a threat to national security and Not one piece of crap from China would be bought in this country again. They would be the big looser in a move like that.

Interesting statement and one I have to agree with to some extent. True, a "cash in" like that would be impossible; it's not even a question of "permitting" it, as it would be simply beyond the limits of the system that's in place to do that. But on the other hand, much of this stuff from China (poisonous toys excepted) is not what you called it but is vital for maintaining many US industries. Bit and pieces, odd and ends, small but vital parts that are needed to build everything from automobiles to zithers. (Actually I'm guessing about the zithers but you get my drift...) Without those parts, a lot of US factories would simply have to close, like they did when some dock workers went on strike in California a while back and all those containers from China just sat there...

However, seeing as China holds 60% of all US foreign debt, it does leave the question open as to what would happen if they (the Chinese) decided to tighten up a little on their payment conditions (unlikely)...or simply announced that they were closing down the port of Hong Kong for a month or two to totally upgrade all its security in order to ensure that no dangerous materials can be shipped out of there in containers and into the US...their contribution to the War on Terror...

Two months without Chinese container loads of bits and pieces coming in to US ports? What would that do to a lot of American industries?

But why would they do that? Well, why not take the US dollar down still further? The devaluation of the US dollar in the past couple of years doesn't seem to have hurt China all that much, has it?

Before I get slammed with protests, the point I'm making is that the whole concept of why China might (a) go to war against the US or (b) use economic tactics to collapse the US economy/industrial base is so complex that I doubt we could discern any reasonable scenario wherein they would actually see benefits in doing so.

Militarily, it's my understanding that the Chinese not only have a standing army which is bigger than the USA's, they also have a very considerable reserve. Even so, why they would want to go all the way to the USA and attempt an invasion is beyond me. I am very dubious about the (2003) report of 80,000 Chinese troops near the US border, but even if it were true (and if they are still there about 4 years later), then such a force would be nowhere near enough for an invasion to succeed against 300 million people who possess around that many firearms... Whether or not the US military would "whup" the Chinese is frankly something I'd rather never see tested.

Living where I do, I can also confirm that just because a nation has (or had, as is the case here) a communist regime, it doesn't mean the people wanted it or that they are all crazy commies, out to conquer the world. Sometimes people just don't realize they've been conned until it's too late, other times they get taken over. This country experienced both in its post-WWII history.

I suspect this may be the same in other communist or ex-communist nations.

Can these ships double as transport ships

I'm still waiting for my MP3 Player from Ebay.

Living where I do, I can also confirm that just because a nation has (or had, as is the case here) a communist regime, it doesn't mean the people wanted it or that they are all crazy commies, out to conquer the world. Sometimes people just don't realize they've been conned until it's too late, other times they get taken over. This country experienced both in its post-WWII history.

"sometimes people just don't realize they've been conned until it's too late,"

or perhaps they have the wacky notion that they like communism?

Stop putting your biased views into the Chinese mouths.

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus

Living where I do, I can also confirm that just because a nation has (or had, as is the case here) a communist regime, it doesn't mean the people wanted it or that they are all crazy commies, out to conquer the world. Sometimes people just don't realize they've been conned until it's too late, other times they get taken over. This country experienced both in its post-WWII history.

"sometimes people just don't realize they've been conned until it's too late,"

or perhaps they have the wacky notion that they like communism?

Stop putting your biased views into the Chinese mouths.

Hello Octavius Maximus,

perhaps i did not make myself clear. The "This country" I am referring to is the one I am living in these days, which is the Czech Republic. I moved over here from Australia in 1993, at a time when they were desperately short of qualified people in many key areas they needed to develop to help them catch up with their more westernized neighbours...

I am sure you are familiar with the post-WWII history of this part of Europe so I won't go into too many details, but it is a fact that the first Communist regime here was voted in. Whether or not the elections were completely fair and open is something I cannot determine unequivocally but it seems the result was not unpopular. It was only after that people realized it was not the ideal they were hoping for and frankly many of them from then on only paid lip-service to Communism. Then, 20 years later, in 1968, after Dubček moved a little too far towards moderation, the Russians literally rolled in with their tanks and crushed that movement...

I'm not quite sure what you mean about putting biased views into Chinese mouths. Again, I am hoping that I just didn't phrase my thoughts well enough. I was trying to point out that no-one can assume that just because a nation has a Communist government that it means the majority of people want it or even agree with its fundamental precepts.

Mike

Edited to fix a dumb double-negative error of grammar.

[edit on 7-10-2007 by JustMike]

Originally posted by traderonwallst
...Invade my country and I give up everything for the defense of it and the fredom of my family. Attack my family in any way, all gloves are off and I do what ever it takes to completely destroy you and any force that works with you. This does not have to be an invader, it could just be an intruder into my home.

Sorry, its not nationalistic or patriotic to want to defend the freedoms you were born with (here in USA we are born with such freedoms), its normal to act that way. Stop calling everyone who is willing to give their life for their country psychotic. I might not stand up and dare other countries to invade ours, but if they take that chance, then yes...I hope they do cease to exist in a very very short period of time.

I'm glad to see you state your point of view. I am not sure if I would wish non-existence on an entire nation on the basis of decisions (to invade) that were made by its government, but I agree about defending my family.

Ok I live in the Czech Republic right now but Australia's my home and always will be, and if any country attacks my home then I am dropping everything here and getting back there and doing whatever I can to defeat them -- just like all other Aussies will. There is no way I want my children and my two grandchildren to live under an occupying force. (Okay I'm not twenty anymore but even "old" sods like me have their uses, you know.)

What I don't get is how it seems to be so different in the case of (for example) Iraq, a country that was invaded, had its capital bombed in an effort to "decapitate its regime" and is still under those occupying forces. Why are the Iraqis -- who are doing exactly what you or I would do if our own homes were invaded -- called "terrorists" if they dare to fight back against their invaders? Does the fact that they had a dictator justify bombing them and killing innocent people? In your own case, even if you had the worst President/Government in you nation's history, would you just allow another nation to launch an attack against you and then invade your land in order to "decapitate" your nation's regime? (Every system of government is a regime.) Of course you wouldn't...

I'm not attacking you personally; please understand that. I just am trying to work out why there seems to be a double standard pushed upon us.

Mike

Originally posted by dntwastetime
They want to go to war with the ULTRA SUPER PATRIOTS of America who will love to send them back into the abyss!!!! I say bring it communist SCUM!!!!!Freedom will never die by your blood covered hands. I know many people who have many, many, guns,scary guns, and much ammo for these invaders to eat. Think about how psychotic Americans are about there country. Think about how crazy the men are about there familys.These mind controlled slave soldier fools have not a chance against us, unless our criminal government wants them to win. I am seeing this as a real scenario. I laugh in there face.plus the scum will have to fight over the sea.
DWT

I give 5 to 1 that the above poster wears a bullet on the first day, if he isn't turned down from the army for being a nutjob.

perhaps i did not make myself clear. The "This country" I am referring to is the one I am living in these days, which is the Czech Republic. I moved over here from Australia in 1993, at a time when they were desperately short of qualified people in many key areas they needed to develop to help them catch up with their more westernized neighbours...

I am sorry You should come back.

I am sure you are familiar with the post-WWII history of this part of Europe so I won't go into too many details, but it is a fact that the first Communist regime here was voted in.

...

deration, the Russians literally rolled in with their tanks and crushed that movement...

My post WW2 knowledge of Europe is quite shaky, im an Ancient historian and my post WW2 knowledge is mostly concerned with the Pacific region.
But i do get what you mean.

I'm not quite sure what you mean about putting biased views into Chinese mouths. Again, I am hoping that I just didn't phrase my thoughts well enough. I was trying to point out that no-one can assume that just because a nation has a Communist government that it means the majority of people want it or even agree with its fundamental precepts.

Alright.

I may not have been clear either.

Basically, what i am saying is that many people seem to think that because a country is communist means that its people are unhappy.

Some people say that Democracy is a freedom all people in the world want.

This isnt true. Not all people want a democracy. Some people may love living in a communist nation, or a monarchy, or a dictatorship.

Who knows? They all have their own ideals and extelligence, so democracy isnt a universal want. Its a biased Western viewpoint, and is used as a way to allow Western Nations to legitimatly attack other nations. Because they arnt conforming to a Democratic ideal.

Edited to fix a dumb double-negative error of grammar.

Ah Grammer, my most hated of foes.

Ok I live in the Czech Republic right now but Australia's my home and always will be, and if any country attacks my home then I am dropping everything here and getting back there and doing whatever I can to defeat them -- just like all other Aussies will. There is no way I want my children and my two grandchildren to live under an occupying force. (Okay I'm not twenty anymore but even "old" sods like me have their uses, you know.)

Its odd, i say the Australian viewpoint around here and people think im a coward who wouldnt fight an invader.

I say if someone wants to invade Australia i would seek to know why, and try to work out a peaceful resolution.

I wont just resolve myself to "shoot commies" because they are coming here. if they attack, its for a reason, and if we show them that what we give them in an alliance is preferable to mutual destruction, then there we may ally, and thats always good, right?

But if an invader comes, ignores calls for piece, and tries to take what isnt their own from 'the lucky country'. Then woe befall them if they meet me or any Australian.

In the world i have seen nothing scarier than an enraged Aussie

What I don't get is how it seems to be so different in the case of (for example) Iraq, a country that was invaded, had its capital bombed in an effort to "decapitate i

...

ck against you and then invade your land in order to "decapitate" your nation's regime? (Every system of government is a regime.) Of course you wouldn't...

i say this all the time.

Is it part of Australian culture which makes us always look at all sides of an arguement?

strange... not a bad thing, of course.

I give 5 to 1 that the above poster wears a bullet on the first day, if he isn't turned down from the army for being a nutjob.

Armies have very specific requirements when hiring murderers

reply to post by traderonwallst



Why would Australia need US help/aid.money in the case of a terrorist strike on Australia ?? This is sheer nonsense...

The amount of "help" provided by the US after the Bali bombings was negligible, a huge majority of the investigative work was done by Australian and Indonesian authorities, US involvement was minimal...Unless you want to include US involvement in making the attacks themselves ?

Hmm....makes one wonder...

And like we'd need US "aid" at any point ???!!!! That is so laughable its tragic...We've run a federal surplus for years now, so we aren't exactly short of a quid...

We need the US like a hole in the head...





[edit on 8-10-2007 by Rilence]

reply to post by True_Confederate


Japan alone could defeat China ???!!!

With ?

I'd be interested to hear your COHESIVE thoughts and maybe some facts to back this one up

Peace

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus

I am sorry

You should come back.

I fully intend to, mate. Winters at 20 below and way too long get a bit tiresome as you get older...

Its odd, i say the Australian viewpoint around here and people think im a coward who wouldnt fight an invader...I say if someone wants to invade Australia i would seek to know why, and try to work out a peaceful resolution...

Agreed. It's always best to try for a diplomatic solution first.

...I wont just resolve myself to "shoot commies" because they are coming here... But if an invader comes, ignores calls for piece, and tries to take what isnt their own from 'the lucky country'. Then woe befall them if they meet me

or any Australian.

Too right!

In the world i have seen nothing scarier than an enraged Aussie

You haven't met my wife (who's Czech).

Is it part of Australian culture which makes us always look at all sides of an arguement?

strange... not a bad thing, of course.

Could be...It's not unique of course but in Oz it seems to be the norm.

Sorry, I missed posting this part somehow:

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
Basically, what i am saying is that many people seem to think that because a country is communist means that its people are unhappy.

Some people say that Democracy is a freedom all people in the world want.

This isnt true. Not all people want a democracy. Some people may love living in a communist nation, or a monarchy, or a dictatorship.

Who knows? They all have their own ideals and extelligence, so democracy isnt a universal want. Its a biased Western viewpoint, and is used as a way to allow Western Nations to legitimatly attack other nations. Because they arnt conforming to a Democratic ideal.

It's quite true that some people can live quite happily under a Communist system of government or other non-democratic system. I know people here in the Czech Republic who were doing fine under the old regime. They had pretty comfortable homes, fairly good and not-too-demanding jobs that gave them ample time with their families, a cottage in the country... In fact 50% of Czech families had (and still have) a little cottage in the country somewhere, a place they could go to and actually relax and have a few jars and a good old chin-wag....(And Czech beer is excellent ) As for jobs, there was of course no unemployment...But the pay was nothing special. As my friends say: "We pretended to work and they pretended to pay us." Many Czechs made a little extra money on the side with a second, "unofficial" job, but provided they didn't do anything that was actually illegal officialdom generally left them alone...

As for work, there was no great motivation to work harder than necessary simply because it made little difference. You got paid a rate based on experience for that type of job and that was it. High qualifications did not mean better money, either. A medical doctor or economist, for example, got around the same money or less than a truck driver or bar staff... And the idea of "service" to customers/the public is still not well understood here across the board, especially away from the bigger towns where people still basically live exactly as they did before 1989... Most govt. offices open for about 4 hrs on Mon and Tues, 8 hrs on Wed, 4 hrs on Thurs. and are closed on Friday. These days, I mean. No such thing as "9 to 5" for govt. offices. And I mean nowhere... This is a hangover from the old regime and the inertia is very hard to move...

Back to people's attitudes here. There was an "up" side for many people I know. They lived quite well, considering. But there were also the others, on the "down" side, who couldn't go to Uni because they came from a family that had owned substantial property (eg a large farm) pre-1948, or who found themselves out of Uni one week and building tractors the next (and for the next 20 or more years) because they criticized the regime in a class on "Marxismus-Leninismus", or who were sent to work in the Příbram uranium mines because of anti-govt. statements they made in a pub and that were overheard by informers and reported to the secret police... All of these are just examples from people I know. Yes, the "dissidents" were a minority, but they did not have a good time of it.

On the other hand, I see democracies these days where you have to be very careful what you say in public for fear of (at the least) being labelled "unpatriotic", so I wonder at how different the old regime here is from some current democratic ones in other places in that respect...

Anyway, I'll get out of here for now. Appreciate your points, Octavius. They're valid and historically supportable as well...

Mike

[edit on 8-10-2007 by JustMike]

Originally posted by Rilence
reply to post by True_Confederate

 

Japan alone could defeat China ???!!!

With ?

I'd be interested to hear your COHESIVE thoughts and maybe some facts to back this one up

Peace

Well it appears that True_Confederate has been banned so I guess we might be waiting a while for a reply... But I also found that statement a bit strange, especially considering the Japanese Constitution severely restricts that nation's military in many ways and makes it almost impossible for them to assemble a fighting force in short order that would be capable of defending them from a pretty considerable Chinese force -- in the event of an invasion, I mean...by either side.

China has more twenty times the military personnel of Japan, at around 7 million versus 300,000, has available military manpower of over 340 million versus Japan's 27 million, and is overwhelmingly superior in terms of aircraft, artillery, armoured units, missile defence, and other key factors such as available oil reserves and known oil production. Oh, that's without taking into account the fact that China has nukes and Japan doesn't.

If anyone would like to see some comparison figures then check [globalfirepower.com's website]

Just click on "compare nations" up the top of the screen and in the next page choose "China" and "Japan". Or whoever you are interested in. Useful lil' site.

It's just a no-brainer. Japan, on its own, would not have a snowflake's chance in hades of defeating China.

I for one sincerely hope that such military power as the Chinese could bring to muster never gets tested...

Edited to add an instruction for using the off-site info, edited again to fix a very stupid error.

[edit on 8-10-2007 by JustMike]

[edit on 8-10-2007 by JustMike]

First of all, China's leaders are not as stupid as the Bush administration. When that is said, China would fight a more advanced and lethal war than USA could handle.

Just look at the numbers in Iraq and Afghanistan. China is 100 times more advanced than them.

Think USA could handle it?

I on the other hand, dont think china is doing more than to make sure they can protect themselfes from the dictator called Bush.

And to add a little more on the finishline, China is hosting the olympics next year. I dont think we'll see china invading any country before the olympics is over. Its to much money involved in that game.



[edit on 8-10-2007 by tep200377]

Originally posted by tep200377
First of all, China's leaders are not as stupid as the Bush administration. When that is said, China would fight a more advanced and lethal war than USA could handle.

I think, militarily speaking, China vs. USA would be a close war. China has sheer numbers, the US has high tech weaponry and years of battle hardened troops and generals.

Secondly, ive said this many times on this board. the bush administration isnt stupid, it is cold, calculating, and vicious; anything but stupid. They lead the nation (and the world) into 2 wars, inceased the ammount of heroin production in afganistan, secured oil and financial interests in the mid east, and crushed would be revolutionary governments.

Just because bush muddles his speaches and his policy seems confusing, doesnt mean bush himself is stupid and is confused by his policies.

People need to stop focusing on how stupid one leader appears to be, and start focusing on how vicious they are.

Just look at the numbers in Iraq and Afghanistan. China is 100 times more advanced than them.

Its not too hard to be 100 times more advanced than 2 post war countries. I think thats a bad comparrison


[edit on 8-10-2007 by InSpiteOf]

I do feel there is something in the air

I am not sure if it is China but North Korea appear to be co operating with the West regarding the nuclear facilities. China has its dirty hands in many countries and I would not be surprised at all to find out there is another Pearl Harbour being staged. For all intent and purposes show the world there is peace negotiations when in fact, it is just part of a stragegy.

Originally posted by Thurisaz
I do feel there is something in the air

Its called moisture

I am not sure if it is China but North Korea appear to be co operating with the West regarding the nuclear facilities.

Are you suggesting N Korea will launch an attack against the US? Im not sure what you mean by this line.
Besides, China has been co-operating with US Foreign Capital for years.

China has its dirty hands in many countries and I would not be surprised at all to find out there is another Pearl Harbour being staged.

To the bolded: Thats an interesting thing to say, seems to promote your bias towards China. Do you prefer the bloodsoaked hands of Britian? Or the US? Or most of Europe?
To the italics: you do realize the Pearl Harbour attack was staged by Japan right?

For all intent and purposes show the world there is peace negotiations when in fact, it is just part of a stragegy.

What peace negotiations? From N Korea or China?
If reffering to China: The US and China are allies, and have no current need for peace talks.
If reffering to N Korea: They have no need to talk peace with the US at this moment, but they do have a nee to talk to S Korea, and are doing so. To top it off, N Korea was never a threat to US stability, economic interests maybe, but never stability.

I fully intend to, mate. Winters at 20 below and way too long get a bit tiresome as you get older...

I was born in holland, i wouldnt mind abit of that around here sometimes

Agreed. It's always best to try for a diplomatic solution first.

And last.

You haven't met my wife (who's Czech).

Just dont tell her you said that, right?

I dunno. European countries ( i know there are huge differences between countries but there are cultural links) along with America, seem to react the same to Anger.

They will rise up, shout and carry on. Its a hell of a noise and makes you feel quite bad and annoyed yourself.

People from the UK and Australia seem to react to be the opposite, a person who is truly angry goes icy cold. They will do and say things specifically to hurt, but they make you truly fear for yourself.

Could be...It's not unique of course but in Oz it seems to be the norm.

Of course not, but seeing the arguements against the War with iraq.

People say that they are against Howard because of supporting George Bush in Iraq. But most of the times they mention that they do see the necessity of supporting America, simply because its better to be behind the slavering beast instead of in front of it.

most people who are against John Howard in the war are against the length of it, rather than the actual participation.

Anyway, another Aussie died in Iraq today. Improvised bomb exploded, killed him and injured his passenger in their ASLAV.

Lest we forget.

It's quite true that some people can live quite happily under a Communist system of government or other non-democratic system. I know people here in the Czech Republic who were doing fine under the old regime. They had pretty comfortable homes, fairly good and not-too-demanding jobs that gave them ample time with their families, a cottage in the country... In fact 50% of Czech families had (and still have) a little cottage in the country somewhere, a place they could go to and actually relax and have a few jars and a good old chin-wag....(And Czech beer is excellent ) As for jobs, there was of course no unemployment...But the pay was nothing special. As my friends say: "We pretended to work and they pretended to pay us." Many Czechs made a little extra money on the side with a second, "unofficial" job, but provided they didn't do anything that was actually illegal officialdom generally left them alone...

That sounds quite good, (and you need to bring me some of that Czech beer )

i also love that quote

As for work, there was no great motivation to work harder than necessary simply because it made little difference. You got paid a rate based on experience for that type of job and that was it. High qualifications did not mean better money, either. A medical doctor or economist, for example, got around the same money or less than a truck driver or bar staff... And the idea of "service" to customers/the public is still not well understood here across the board, especially away from the bigger towns where people still basically live exactly as they did before 1989... Most govt. offices open for about 4 hrs on Mon and Tues, 8 hrs on Wed, 4 hrs on Thurs. and are closed on Friday. These days, I mean. No such thing as "9 to 5" for govt. offices. And I mean nowhere... This is a hangover from the old regime and the inertia is very hard to move...

Well see that is where Communism falls down. Its not because of the system as such. its because it has to change from one system to another, and many people cant handle such a drastic change.

Communism is a long term investment, but most people only look at short term results. If a communist country can promote economic growth through expansion and trade then it very quickly becomes a motivated and powerful country. A 'Communist Empire' of a sort.

Now, ive done alittle of my own research (and talked with a few of my friends who are in their masters of Economics) and it seems to me that if you took the basics of a communist system and overlaid a few capitalist principles then the society would work.

For instance you create the communist idea of being paid for your job, not what you do. Basically just enough to scrape your living.

Now you add some capitalist ideals where people get paid more for higher rates of work, and for service to the state (such as scientific inventions or other such things)

This creates a motivation to become better, to educate yourself to help the state, to work well, to help yourself. Its a cycle which makes everyone rely on each other, but still has personal gain.

best of both worlds.

Unfortunatly this system would be perfect if i didnt have to change it from another system. Trying to change a Capitalist nation to this, they would deplore the loss of free enterprise and would hate the cap on high wages.

Turning a communist nation into this one (i need a name for it) might be easier. But they may not like the lower amount of 'basic' pay (as an incentive to work)

On the other hand, I see democracies these days where you have to be very careful what you say in public for fear of (at the least) being labelled "unpatriotic", so I wonder at how different the old regime here is from some current democratic ones in other places in that respect...

Anyway, I'll get out of here for now. Appreciate your points, Octavius. They're valid and historically supportable as well...

Thank you very much, i appreciate your input and hope for a reply!