Woman Dies after Airport Arrest

Originally posted by paraclete1
I didn’t read anything that would make it obvious that this woman needed medical attention.

What about her saying "I'm not a terrorist! I'm a sick mom. I need help!"
You don't think her saying she was sick and needed help is an indication that she needed medical attention? For all we know, she died as a result of a diabetic coma, because they took away her needles for insulin.

I agree with DWT, this story has more holes in it than Swiss cheese. It's impossible to get the cuffs up to your head when your arms are in handcuffs, in back of you.

I worked as a flight attendant for 6 years and dealt with airport security quite a bit. Firstly, these are not cops, they are security people, right? Security people are not trained very well to help a distraught person in need of help, and not to be offensive, but they usually aren't too bright, either. I can see this happening out of stupidity and then trying to cover it up.
She may have had a Dr. appt in the town where she was going to. Sometimes people do have to go to a different city for a specialist or clinic. If she missed her flight, especially due to the airline's fault and not her own, and then missed her appt., she may have then had to wait 3 months or so for another appt. By that time, she might be dead. After dealing with numbskulls who didn't understand, I could see where she would become hysterical.
If that were the case, if someone had bothered to ask the captain (which would be the correct action), he may well have been willing to hold the plane for an extra minute or 2 so she could make her appt., seeing as how it was a life/death situation. Captains are usually pretty good about that type of thing. But apparently that didn't happen, at least it wasn't mentioned in the article, which left out huge pieces of info.

reply to post by section8citizen


i know the variations....
again, it CAN be done.....did you not read my posts...

people can dislocate their shoulders at will.
not all but some can.

also, the more you've had your shoulder dislocated, the easier it is to do.

that said, even if she did dislocate her shoulder and maneuver the cuffs over, she could not choke herself to death

Someone did make a good point about dislocating the shoulder..... however you have to keep in mind that she only had maybe an inch of chain between the cuffs to work with. I do not see this theory as being even remotely possible.

Originally posted by section8citizen
Someone did make a good point about dislocating the shoulder..... however you have to keep in mind that she only had maybe an inch of chain between the cuffs to work with. I do not see this theory as being even remotely possible.

section8, i mentioned it about 5 times already...
i know how much chain there is.....still, SOME people can do it....

even if she could do that and did do that, no way she chokes herself out....
NOT happening.....not the choke anyway...she might have been able to get the cufs up and over, or over/under, but NO choke

edit* my mothers friend used to clasp her hands together behind her back, then bring them straight over her head with ZERO inches of chain....if she wore a tank top, you can friggin see her shoulder pop out and as soon as she is over, it pops right back in....

she could do this again and again with no pain....

it is not regular though

[edit on 1-10-2007 by Boondock78]

I think we will really know by how fast it falls away, if more info comes out that solves the story's problems, and does not just add a nice cleaning to the messy story today.

I want to see a broadcaster show how she choked herself or something. That might be media worthy, how can media write these stories without going tilt.

Well actually the quote about swiss cheese was from our dear section8citizen lol. All great input regardless of who said what.

Simple solution to violence by "public servants" STUDY THE CONSTITUTION OF YOUR USA SCUM!!!!We are your MASTERS you are the servants while in uniform. Awaken servants of the public,you do not dominate civilians, you have no real power,your being Mind Controled! Do not support NGO tyrannical dictatorships that abuse there people.One fine sunny day you will run into the wrong soverign American civilian, at the wrong time, who is afraid not of dEAth.Grrrrrrrrrrr.
D









[edit on 1-10-2007 by dntwastetime]

reply to post by Boondock78



I am VERY well versed in submissions. For this theory to be possible you would have to throw out everything you know about arm bars and shoulder locks, and with an inch of chain between the cuffs it would be impossible to choke yourself out this way. You would have to have more room. So she did what? Dislocated her elbow as well to make enough room to wrap her arms or the cuffs around her neck? That doesn't even hold water.

reply to post by dntwastetime


i was talking about me saying some people can dislocate their shoulders at will. i can buy that part.....

i can not and will not buy that she choked herself out while cuffed though.
i have been in and put on hundreds of those chokes and other variations....it's just simply not happening...

This makes no sense at all ... and in addition if she was that crazy then they should have used the belt restraints that would basically prevent her from raising her hands higher then her chest.

I'm all against crooked cops, but in this instance, how do we know she wasn't strangled by someone else in the holding cell for screaming her lungs out? There is no information it seems one way or another, and we probably will never know what really happened ... but to blatantly label something with little or no proof is going against the ATS motto. The title "woman dies after airport arrest" is fine. "Woman beaten while handcuffed for yelling" is not.

reply to post by section8citizen


you are either not paying attention or misreading or something....

for the last time....i can see how MAYBE she could dislocate and bring her arms over....MAYBE....even if she did that though, she could NOT choke herself out.....

am i posting in a strange way or something......?

do you follow now?

even if she could dislocate and was a jj blackbelt, she is NOT choking herself out...i don't care if the official report comes out and says as much..i will not buy that.
been in enough choked and applied enough chokes to know better.


[edit on 1-10-2007 by Boondock78]

reply to post by Boondock78


I have read your post and I understand where you are coming from. We are in agreement that even with that scenario that you described you can not choke yourself out.

I am not attacking you, you have made some VERY GOOD points. I just do not see it as a possibility.

reply to post by section8citizen


then we are on the same page....
i am saying 100% no way she could cchoke herself out...
i am just saying that i could MAYBE see her dislocating but that has nothing to do with the choke....
choke is NOT happening.

just making sure we were not going in circles...
i guess to some it sounds plausable

reply to post by Boondock78



Yes sir we are on the same page. Totally. I just do not think the dislocating shoulder theory is plausible. I realize some people can do it, but what are the chances that in this case SHE could?

Even with that aside... lets say she could do that. With an inch of chain you can not choke yourself out this way accidentally. You sure as he** couldn't do it intentionally either. This we totally agree on and the whole idea is ridiculous to say the least.

Originally posted by forestlady

Originally posted by paraclete1
I didn’t read anything that would make it obvious that this woman needed medical attention.

What about her saying "I'm not a terrorist! I'm a sick mom. I need help!"
You don't think her saying she was sick and needed help is an indication that she needed medical attention? For all we know, she died as a result of a diabetic coma, because they took away her needles for insulin.

the phrase "I'm not a terrorist" has become the catch phrase of anyone who feels that they've been wronged by any law enforcement agency. It rates right up there with "Why don't you go out and catch real criminals.

The phrase "I'm a sick mom, I need help!" raises the questions, if she's sick, why is she trying to get on an airplane? Maybe she did have a doctors appointment in another city, but if that's the case, why didn't she say "I have to make it to a doctors appointment or I'm a sick woman. The term "Mom" in my opinion was used in an effort to get others to feel sorry for her. As for the part "I need Help!" that's something people shout out in an effort to get others to help them get away from police.

Don't get me wrong, I think that there's more to this than what we're seeing, but from what we've seen and read, there is nothing in her statement that I as a 911 dispatcher would have considered as a medical urgency if I'd heard the statements from someone being booked in our police dept.

As for the statement about Security Officers being a little on the slow side, I happen to agree. Before I upset everyone out there, I am a Security Officer at this time. And before you brush me off as being one of those slow officers, I took the test and was a member of MENSA. But my membership has expired, so maybe my genius has too. I'll have to look into that.

paraclete

as mundane as it might seem, wouldn't it be necessary to treat each incident of "I'm not a terrorist." or "I'm sick..." or "I need help" with the same consideration you would afford yourself or your loved ones? just because one guy burps out of rudeness, doesn't mean every burp is rude. (i know, bad analogy) you get the idea, anyway.


[edit on 1-10-2007 by undo]

Another side to the story - link is there, but I posted little parts from the article:

wcbstv.com...
Carol Gotbaum Was Going To Alcohol Rehab In Tucson; Autopsy Will Reveal Whether She Died From Accidental Strangulation Or Something Else

Now a famous New York family is searching for answers, and an autopsy will reveal whether Carol Ann Gotbaum, daughter-in-law of New York's public advocate, Betsy Gotbaum, died from accidental strangulation or if something else may have triggered her death."

"A police spokesman theorized...." (kind of like we are all doing here)


She was handcuffed by officers after being uncooperative and was taken to a holding cell inside the airport, where officers said she continued to throw a fit.

The medical examiner in Phoenix is conducting an autopsy.

So we shall seen what comes of this next.
Im not drawing any conclusions until more info comes out. There just isnt enough yet....

But keep on w/ them...they are intersting!


[edit on 1-10-2007 by greeneyedleo]

Originally posted by undo
paraclete

as mundane as it might seem, wouldn't it be necessary to treat each incident of "I'm not a terrorist." or "I'm sick..." or "I need help" with the same consideration you would afford yourself or your loved ones? just because one guy burps out of rudeness, doesn't mean every burp is rude.

(i know, bad analogy)

you get the idea, anyway.

[edit on 1-10-2007 by undo]

I understand what you're saying, but how many times have we ignored the complaints of our sick childern telling them to suck it up. Okay, maybe a few moms can tell when their kids are really sick, but I think you get the point. In a perfect world everyone would get the medical attention they need. But if officers called for a medical evaluation (Physical and mental) everytime someone made such a statement, the doctors wouldn't be available to those who really needed them. When officers came into the dept with those who claimed to have medical needs, medical personnel were called for after the officers completed the booking processes. In this case, if the woman was in need of immediate medical attention, she wouldn't have or shouldn't have been trying to get onto a flight. And if reports are to be believed, she didn't start causing trouble until after they'd booked her another flight... now that I write that, it rasies the question,

Why did she freak out after getting another flight booked?

If she was okay with taking another flight at first, what set her off to the point that officers had to be called in? Has anyone read anything about whether of not she was complaining the whole time or just after the 2nd flight was booked? If it was the latter, I guess that may have been a red flag that she was having some kind of mental breakdown.

See, talking things out opens new avenues of thought. Thanks.

Originally posted by greeneyedleo
Another side to the story - link is there, but I posted little parts from the article:

wcbstv.com...
Carol Gotbaum Was Going To Alcohol Rehab In Tucson; Autopsy Will Reveal Whether She Died From Accidental Strangulation Or Something Else

That's adds some light to her actions. Most people aren't in a big hurry to get to rehab especially with a bar near by. I'm not saying though that she wasn't trying her best to get there on time in this case.

Could be she was having physical problems if she had no alcohol in her body but was an alcoholic. Bet she was toughing it out knowing help was waiting at rehab.

Edit; still leaning toward someone handled her too roughly and is covering it up.

Edit2: This is sad. I can see where she's finally going to rehab, she's sick, hurting and has missed her plane. Explains the actions.
[edit on 10/1/2007 by roadgravel]

[edit on 10/1/2007 by roadgravel]

Originally posted by roadgravel
Could be she was having physical problems if she had no alcohol in her body but was an alcoholic. Bet she was toughing it out knowing help was waiting at rehab.

bingo. the second i read this i thought "drugs, alcohol, dependency on a substance" was involved in her death. the way she got all frantic when she missed her flight.

she was likely trying extremely hard not to drink, and was going through alcohol withdrawls, which bring on delerium tremens, which can and is fatal. People die from alcohol detox every day. It can cause seizures and strokes much like a barbituate detox.

I figured she was either on drugs, or used to be on drugs and was sober.

Because anyone who has to take a daily medication to stay well can tell you, not taking their medication will make them feel quite rotten, as the withdrawls set in.

I guarantee you even if this isn't the real story, this is what their going to go with. Now how that explains the cuff thing is a different story. They'll likely claim the cuff bit was an error.
Or, fellow inmates or police could've accidently killed her while in her already agitated state.

stroke or heart attack brought on by alcohol withdrawl.

[edit on 10/1/2007 by runetang]