New Holocaust facts - Interesting reading for everyone, Mk2

Originally posted by LoDGiKaL
This is what really irritates me in forums. His find is being trashed?

I apologize. His find was deemed false. Here's the link the damning post.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

some tidbits from the above linked quote

Originally posted by makeitso
It is true that earlier this year a proposal to release the records and make them publicly available was discussed, but the proposal hasn't been ratified yet.

It then follows that the "document " cannot be from newly released sealed records, since they have not released them yet.

That FACT invalidates the first, and most important paragraph of the article, the one that tries to give provenance to the "document".

It also follows that because the first paragraph, and the "document" are based on falsehoods, there is no point in reading the article further, since what follows can only be more of the same.

Neither is there any point in continuing the facade of debating an issue who's main premise is so clearly based on a lie... starting with the very first sentence.

the document D.C. linked to came from a hate site and it has been debunked. trashed in my eyes. you can call it anything you want but the so called released document is based on apparent lies.

I laugh at the blind facts being thrown out in this thread


here are some real FACTS

“In 1939, just before World War Two, the global Jewish population was
approximately 16 million, of which some 11 million are estimated to
have lived in Europe. After the War, the European Jewish population
was reduced to around 5 million.

If 6 million Jews hadn’t been killed in the Shoah, and assuming an
average population growth rate of 1.4% (the current world average),
then in 2004 there would have been approximately 40 million Jews
worldwide, or nearly 3 times the current population.(13 million)”

www.newint.org...


anyone denying that 6 million + died is flat out wrong.

Staff Edit to reflect that quoted content came from an external source.

[edit on 6/7/2007 by Djarums]

Originally posted by Dark Crystalline
Consider the following as a Holocaust. Here are many ruined Hungarian families, whose are working day by days and cannot live from their payments, thanks to the Zionist government. So, guys! We have a Holocaust here. 10-14 million Hungarian lives a Holocaust in our present days. In Palestine, there are many Children, whose parents were killed, whose are starving. That's another Holocaust. In Lebanon, the same. Another Holocaust.

In my work, we need to see all the possibilities for each of the actions, events. That's why the U.S. Government is also hired writers to write the possibilities for upcoming terror threats. We, writers are able to see what you cannot see. But you cannot understand this, while you're not one of us.

But... Well. With a signature like that: The only good fascist is a DEAD fascist.
Uh... so, who is the real Facist here??? I already seen many nice comments at YNet. Each of your comments are similar? Kill him, destroy, eliminate, the dead one is the good one. Well, I'm not surprised that Angels have left you.

[edit on 6-6-2007 by Dark Crystalline]

Dark Crystalline,

You need to take a step back and reflect. Are Hungarians being systematically rounded up and put into concentration camps? Are they being subjected to cruel medical experimentation? Are Hungarians being stripped of their citizenship by their own government? Forced from their homes? Having to wear Patches? Please tell me?

Don't cheapen or lessen the impact of the word Holocaust by throwing it around. The only comparable situation currently is the Genocide going on in Darfur, but I guess they doesn't matter to you, since the Jews have nothing to do with that situation.

You sound like my mother in law, she's Czech. You spout the same kinda statements, blame the Jews for the problem, not your own prejudice. Never mind about taking a look in the mirror and seeing the outright hatred of your own country at the time.

Face facts, there was very strong anti Semitism before WW2 in many of the South Eastern European countries, Nazi Germany just provided an easy way for those countries to join in on the persecution of the Jews in their countries. Your country, for the most part, was a willing and able partner in the persecution of Jews and other undesirables during WWII. You may not like that, hopefully you don't , but each nation must confront it's past if it is to move forward. You however, seem to be stuck in the Antisemitism of the late 1800's.

Originally posted by Dark Crystalline
Oh, well. Let's see who is came to a friendly visit. Hi Djarum. What's up? May I ask why did you gave 10,000 point for a brainwashed? Seriously. Jews are starting to make new "evidences", because everyone is starting to look after their stories. Why now they let this evidence gathering to happen? Because no one is believing to them. These are no evidences, what makeitso brought to you. Hence, he not deserves the 10,000 points. That's what they want you to read. Hurray. You have bought it. Or if you're here to also cover their lies, in this case, you're that guilty to, regardless that you're the moderator or not. Giving prizes because he is covering the lies, well, you're guilty, mister.

You seemed to have missed the entire point of makeitso's post. The website he linked to proves that the article you posted cant be real, because the archive that article claims to come from, (heres the trickey part), hasn't released any files or articles! Which means, the article you posted is fake.

Continuously denying solid evidence that flies in the face of your preconcieved notions is bad research and just plain ignorant. If you have something that refutes makeitso's article than post it. Otherwise, admit your source was bogus and move on.

Originally posted by pavil
Face facts, there was very strong anti Semitism before WW2 in many of the South Eastern European countries,

it is, apparently, still prevalent and this, my friends, is why we can never forget that the holocaust happened.

I apologize. His find was deemed false. Here's the link the damning post.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

some tidbits from the above linked quote

Allright, I'll just apologize as well... This did not go into No-brain mode... I was wrong!!!! Nice to see there still are some people on these boards which can keep it normal. Still going to leave this thread. Not my field of research

Gramlengo. Thanks for the info about the Angels. It helps me so much. As I stated before I'm also surprised on that, that you don't have angels. A Hungarian Rabbi told this to me. His name was Tamas something. I don't know what was his full name. It was around three years ago. I've made a research about Angels that time and that's why I needed to ask someone from your religion too. But thanks for your info. I'd like to know why did he stated this and also mentioned this on his website.

Kilgore. You mentioned that Judaism is faith and not a race. Well. I've heard both versions already. Some of the Jew stated that they're the Chosen Race, some of them, such as you stated, it's faith. So, which is the truth?

I don't, I want to live in peace and freedom, I want my child to grow up happy, healthy, full of love and choices. Idealism, yes, I admit it proudly, but why not, because some people want more than others, because they are greedy and have to feel superior to someone.

That's a good approach. This is that, what I never experienced from Jews here, in my country.

You can CHOOSE to believe whatever you want, but I DO know better than you. There is not one shred of evidence that you have supplied to the contrary, you have not said anything to contradict that belief.... & You offer nothing but bias, no factual understanding at all. So you can CHOOSE to be ignorant, but on the whole worlds head be it.

But what happens if you knows something wrong. Whatever you have ever taught is a lie. Just take up this question at least once. What happens if you knows something wrong? It's worth to meditate on this.

Krakeur. It's been debunked? Where. Tell me, please. You also shown me no evidence for the opposite.

InSpiteOf. Well. You missed some point here.

You seemed to have missed the entire point of makeitso's post. The website he linked to proves that the article you posted cant be real, because the archive that article claims to come from, (heres the trickey part), hasn't released any files or articles! Which means, the article you posted is fake.

If someone is finding something, i.e. that one who made article, why should he need to mention the source. Especially if he got from somewhere, or better, have found somewhere. In this case, he is the main source and the direct source is the Red Cross. There is a chance it is real, whatever you stating and do you like it or not. Until this time, no one proved the opposite, just with articles, what we already know.

Hello Dark,

You asked why I gave makeitso 10,000 points.

The answer is quite simple.

I am a senior member of staff on ATS, a site which prides itself on it's members doing thorough research when debating issues and putting thought into their contributions.

makeitso decided that rather than attempt to argue with you (which hadn't been going anywhere for quite a few pages) he would sit down and research the supposed proof that Mr. Turner's article used. Through his research he discovered that no such proof existed. I fail to see how you can call that "brainwashed" in fact it appears the opposite is true.

As a senior member of staff I felt that his efforts were an absolute perfect representation of the type of post we strive for here. Critical thinking, research, careful analysis and proper presentation.

I hope that answers your question clearly.

Oh. If someone is answering something correctly, it's good if we're saying thanks for it.

So, thank you, Djarum.

Otherwise the brainwashed gone something else. I don't want to start a flame, so I skip to explain it.

[edit on 7-6-2007 by Dark Crystalline]

Originally posted by Dark Crystalline
InSpiteOf. Well. You missed some point here.

If someone is finding something, i.e. that one who made article, why should he need to mention the source. Especially if he got from somewhere, or better, have found somewhere. In this case, he is the main source and the direct source is the Red Cross. There is a chance it is real, whatever you stating and do you like it or not. Until this time, no one proved the opposite, just with articles, what we already know.

Again, you completely missed the point. The article you posted is supposedly from the red cross, held in archives in Arolsen Germany. The articles have not been released to the public, so how can Hal Turner have read them? There is no where else to get the articles from. Hal Turner is the main source because he fabricated his article to suit his political agenda. The direct source is the International Red Cross, but it hasnt released any of its archives for anyone public to read. There is no chance it is real, as there is no chance Hal Turner went into those archives, read then smuggled the article out.

Originally posted by Dark Crystallines.

Krakeur. It's been debunked? Where. Tell me, please. You also shown me no evidence for the opposite.

It's Crakeur thank you very much.

Allow me to point out, a second time now, the post that disproved the information this thread was based on.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

It has now been posted and linked to, with quotes, several times. Try reading through the whole post and clicking the specific links. The post itself is pretty clear and the links are back up to the information.

Please don't bother responding to me if you cannot even read the post and the links. I read your link and researched the topics you brought up (the 1919 article, jews in hungary etc). Show me the same courtesy and discuss the post and the links provided rather than ignore them. makeitso did an excellent job of locating and posting the information. he deserves nothing less than a full reading. If you cannot do that, you clearly have only one agenda, and that is to spread hate and lies, truth be damned.

Actually I read them. But I see the same propaganda here and there. Otherwise, I also have found a similar article, what I posted on a Hungarian News site too. Why would they spread it too if it's not truth?

Well. It's saying the same, proving my claiming and my theories. Weird, right? Otherwise, if it's a lie and you know that, why are you fighting against it that hard? If we're ignorant, why you cannot simply leave it to us? Oh. And before you're coming with "We're disgracing the victims...", well, it's been started since the event was used to get some coins (Regardless your claiming is true or our ones.).

Here is my theory.
#1. No one is believing in it anymore. Zionists knows this too.
#2. Accidentally someone gets this data, in this case Turner, to prove it was a hoax. Actually it was sent by Zionists to start everything again.
#3. People are starting to rebel against the Jews, including the normal ones.
#4. The event is repeating itself again, make it to real. With this, the Zionists will have the right to say, it happened before, it's happened again. They will have the right to claim something again, while they sacrificed their own people.

Everything has two or more sides. I heard a theory, that the Holocaust was invented by the Jews, sacrificed their own people to have a chance to claim Israel. Now Israel is at the edge of collapse. People are don't believing in the Holocaust anymore. I also just read, that Switzerland is just want to invite everyone for a short Holocaust Denier Conference. So, it's easier to play this again and again.

Here is the link for it. It's from the official Ysraeli Net website.

www.ynetnews.com...

As I said, my theory is just a theory. But it has a background. Everything has a cause and effect and I seen enough of this to see the backgrounds and logically meditate the upcoming consequences. So, what happens, if even if it was a hoax, even not, someone is using this against their own people, make everything to happen again or make it real this time (I directly used two versions in the sentence, your version and my version too.). Because if my theory is correct, in this case you're in great danger. And not from us. From yourselves, your religion fellows.

Just see that fact, in the last two years, everything is about Israel and the Jews. If not we're making this (Because we're no influenced in Israeli politics for example.), in this case your fellows are doing this. And if yes, my theory comes.

You haven't paid attention to a thing that anyone has posted reputing your assertions meaning all you want is a forum for your argument... well count me out.

Dark Crystalline, it is clear that you have no intention of listening to anything or even using the brain to make sense of what is being said so I will simply say farewell and say that I hope that the angels you speak of guide you for you blind and deaf and you will need their guidance to navigate the world around you.

give up the hate. open your eyes and your ears and learn a litttle.

peace.

#2. Accidentally someone gets this data, in this case Turner, to prove it was a hoax. Actually it was sent by Zionists to start everything again.

But this is what you're missing, again... Turner did NOT get the data. He did NOT get the reports because NO ONE has gotten those reports yet. Therefore, he does NOT know what's in them, and the very premise of his article is a fraud, hoax, falsehood, lie, or whichever of those you prefer.

You really are remarkably stubborn, DC. It's been pointed out that it, the document in question, is a fake. Fake, as in not real, as in phoney, a lie...and not one promulgated by the "evil" Jews, but by someone who has a bias against the Jewish people.

So, rather than feed the troll, I'm done. Make that trolls, plural.

[edit on 7-6-2007 by seagull]

I have only to see what they are doing to the Palestinian people today (and to the US) to know who they are and what they have done in the past.

The Jews have been killed and persecuted for 2,000 and it was not because of their religion but because the way that they acted as Jews.

What other race of people have been kicked out of more than 78 countries? and with some of them doing more than twice?

I say a "race" of people because to me a Jews is more than to belong to a religion.....they brought it upon themselves.

And to all of you that keep on using the word anti Semite.....the mayority of Arabs are also Semites so knock it off.

Remember that to be a Zionist is to be part of a political party and not a religious one.

Originally posted by PONCE
I have only to see what they are doing to the Palestinian people today (and to the US) to know who they are and what they have done in the past.

Well, now that we've settled the fact that you use no historical context on which to judge this group of people, please move on.

Isreals foriegn policy against the people of Palestine is atrocious to say the least, but is the fault of imperialist policies, not of the Jewish people.

Originally posted by PONCE
The Jews have been killed and persecuted for 2,000 and it was not because of their religion but because the way that they acted as Jews.

no, it is because they were jews. the egyptians enslaved them and they fled to Israel. They lived there until they were chased out by other religions. Religions that came after judaism. Religions that were, in some cases, offshoots of judaism, in other cases, related in some manner or other. For example, Jesus? Jew. Evil, big nosed, stooped over, shuffling, horned jew.

Ignorance is not always bliss ponce. Keep praying to your jewish god and badmouthing jews at the same time. Jesus gave a message of love and all these anti-jews are hating him at the same time.

Djarum. Have you ever heard about early details? For example, in many countries, mostly in Europe we're learning some news, what you get only two, maybe three days, even a week later. Have you ever heard about people, whose are directly releasing the real data before anyone would have a chance to manipulate? Of course you heard this. There were many in the centuries.

And if it's an early release, maybe that's why is it counting only 13 camps, no more. Or as I said before, someone made this before, not this time, but quite earlier and these data are from them. I believe not I'm the one, who has a tunnel vision here. None of you're opened to any opportunities, possibilities, just telling again and again... geez, it's not what we've learned, so it's a hoax. Well guys. Before 1492, everyone believe that the world is a plane, nothing more. Then everyone realized, geez, it's not a plane, and also doesn't have a shape of a banana. You're making this mistake here too. You never questioning everything what you've learned and that's what we, Crystallines are calling ignorance. You never able and what is more important, you NEVER DARE to imagine possibilities and that's one of the major property of tunnel vision. There are almost unlimited possibilities for everything, but you're accepting only one from the millions, or billions. And why? Because someone told you, that you HAVE TO ACCEPT that one. Geez, guys. Open your eyes, just a little.

InSpiteOf. Here is you presented what is mostly fit for the Jews. "It's not the fault of the Jewish people.".... have we ever heard, "Yes, damn it. It's our fault."? Nope. Never. A little honor would be great, guys. Maybe most of you have, but in this case, your leaders doesn't have any. Or have you ever said to anyone, to a Gentille, "Yes, you're right.". I bet not really. And in this case , it's already presenting your or the Jews real behavior (Rare exceptions are possible, so I'm not drawing out this possibility.).

Crakeur. Just to make this clear, Angel, one Angel and not Angels. As I said, one Guardian Angel per man. But right now I consider this as "off topic". But as I see, not I'm the one who is giving up. Again.

grover. I paid attention. I really do. That's why I'm here. That's why I'm talking here with you or the others. But you couldn't convince me, nor anyone else, whose are reading this nice topic (In the meantime I got some letters to please accept their congratulations, because I'm doing a really fine job since yesterday. For my beloved readers, thank you for the letters.). Each of the statements, what you or the others presented has some glitch here and there. You cannot convince me and as I see, you're already starting to loose your own faith. Maybe that's one of the reason why you're bailing out. Well. Thanks for the chance to speak with you. Maybe next time.