America Deserved 9/11...

Originally posted by esdad71
3000 people died in one day based on an ideology that was set a decade earlier.

Yeah, set in stone thanks to the CIA's ambitions in Afghanistan.

We were prepared but we were not ready.

911 Commission Report: "terrorist threats, was in the 10's of 1000's—probably 100's of 1000's

The idea was on the table but there was no way anyone could actually attack the US? It was false bravado in a world where the USS Cole had jsut been bombed along with a few embassies by the same people who commited 9/11.

"We" could have stopped them, yo.
Al Qaeda: "The CI-A Team"
Osama's Satellite phone: History Channel debunks the enitre 911 Commission Report

The very fact that we can post to a site like this shows that our rights have not been stripped in this country.

If we're added to terrorist watch lists then you call that freedom?

Trust me, if the gov't was monitoring these boards more than a few of you would have had a knock on the door.

You're a US Establishment apologist, and you want me to trust you? Why would they knock? Have you ever been under surveilance? They don't want you to know they're paying attention. They don't even need to send people to track you much anymore. Are you familiar with all of the tracking programs and systems that ar ein full effect? Cmon, they even talk about them in the mainstream news these days.

It is one thing to have an alternative theory but it is another to condemn a nation and it's people.

Alternative theories have nothign to do with core truths about a matter like what I'm pointing out. Why we were hated then and attacked is the first line of questioning on a matter, and Bush and all of Congress has yet to come clean on this issue.

When you openly state that Bush and co planned 9/11, it scares me to think how you people can live in this country.

Remember 9/11and how expensive flags were on eBay on 9/20.

If Bush would have told US the truth about why they hated US they wouldn't have been half as much. If our "leaders" would have ever told US the truth about American Imperialism, there never would have been AI, or 9/11.

Esdad, you made some logical and cogent points but you underestimate the depths of depravity that certain individuals within the gov't will stoop to ensure that their cause or agenda suceeds.

I suggest you read Project Beta by Greg Bishop. It's an incredibly shocking and well documented story about how certain individuals in the National Security Agency and the USAF OSI used their positions to drive a patriotic and loyal American to madness or ruin rather than do the just the right thing. This book only deals with the case of what they could do to a single individual. What are they capable of on a mass scale? Try the invasion of Iraq.

Ever hear Project for a New American Century? I'm not a big believer in coincidence when it comes matters political and you better believe the 9-11 attack was very political in nature.

Originally posted by nick7261

Originally posted by IgnoranceIsntBlisss
Why do most of the people of the world hate US?

They don't. You should get out more often. Everywhere I've gone in the world I've been welcomed and treated well by everybody. I've never once had anybody in any other country treat me poorly because I am an American.

Blah. I think I generalized some of your arguments in my response to the other response to my first post here, after coming back to the end of the thread later. Sorry.

What is the most core fundamental truth that can be said of the US, all throughout its history?

That ordinary people, being allowed to exercise their freedoms, have made the world a better place.

Where have "we" made it a better place? Certainly not in the Middle East, where the hijackers came from. There are some good stories about the US, namely the ones you've only heard about to build up your belief, but then there's the extensive list that blows it out of the water. I posted the thread / link to it in here earlier.

Why do we have 12-13 supercarriers, when no other country has more than one?

Because the U.S. economy is the most productive in the world. This allows the U.S. to allocate resources for such things as supercarriers.

Well, having the money to build carriers is one thing, and building them for local deployment is another, but then placing most of them on permanent forward deployed status is an entirely different reality. How many do we actually need for DEFENSE? They're used for offense.

Why are there 770 military bases in foreign countries? Why are the military personnel in 159 of 193 total world nations?

To protect U.S. and foreign interests abroad. Basically to help protect these countries from invasion.

Could any of those "interests" perhaps be "imperial interests"? Nah, no way!

Why is the US national debt almost 9 TRILLION $$$?

Because the U.S. government has borrowed money.

Problem solved! Case Closed!

Cmon, those numbers are unprecidented in all of human history. Doesn't that trouble you? That we're each enslaved to that debt for the rest of our lives, and its growing?

Hey I dont wanna red herring your thread with this angle so we can move this to another thread if you'd like.

Why is there an unconstitutional income tax?

To pay for every federal program, like the relief that was sent to Kansas to help the victims of the tornadoes.

So federal progams, that aren't military related are costing like a trillion$+ per year? The military costs near a trillion per year without or without an actual war in progress. How come no other non-imperialist country needs to spend that much to defend themselves.

Seriously, if the hundreds of countries where the U.S. has a presence really objected, you think they'd send my tax money back to me?

They give you the illusion of refund, when no matter how much you get back you're still being quietly raped by inflation (tax).

Ever think that maybe the other governments who are whoring themselves to the U.S. might be part of the problem?

So now we're getting to some degree of truth. It takes two to tango. So is it their fault our establishment is corrupt and imperialistic / hegemonic, or is it our leaders and thus "ours" for tolerating it??

[edit on 12-5-2007 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss]

Originally posted by Frith
What is this thread doing in 9/11 conspiracies instead of the War on Terrorism section?

What does personal opinion on the USA deserving the terror attacks of 9/11/01 or not have anything to do with a conspiracy?

If you read my original post you will see that I suggested that maybe the real conspiracy of 9/11 was to undermine the U.S.'s position as a global leader. Maybe the NWO doesn't have room for a super-power.

PNAC is a think tank that in actuallity has many good ideas. Big Business and government do not get along because eventually one runs out of money or supply. Then we have war. In America it is not the government but big business that is creating our pain. No matter who is in office, be it left, right or liertarian, they will want allow big business to make money. So where is the problem?

It is in the SUV's, crackberries and starbucks that is washed down with fastfood and HDTV. America is the modern Rome, and Rome lasted 1000 years after it's collapse. Technology is available to the highest bidder now so this is not the world of the 50's, but of the new millenium.

To the OP..

The USA is the country which gives the lowest percentage of it's GDP to charity.

If you think all Americans are great people, have you ever worked in a service industry?

Have you ever read about why the british soldiers fought in france etc in WW1 and 2? I'm not sure what percentage of our youth we lost in those two wars, but the vast majority were not lost on *home soil*. There were no battlefields in england..

Do I think any country deserves that? No.. But to state that the US is the greatest country on the earth, bar none, is more than a little naive.. or blind..

IIB,

You make some good points. There is definitely truth to what you said in your posts.

However, there is huge difference between American society and American government or foreign policy. The people of the U.S. find themselves in a world where the powers that be have intentionally polarized the entire country with their 2-party monopolistic system. My inititial point was in reference to the people of the U.S., not the government.

Also, the U.S. HAS made the world a better place. As bad as some things are, it's not all bad.

What difference does it make weather we deserve it or not.

We know that when we find th UFOs we will find people at least
complicit in a long list of crimes.

UFOs developed from Tesla's stolen designs and strangled.
Forestall fought with Dulles to reduce funding to the UFO gang and
died before letting us know anything.
JKF fired Dulles and some of the gang and put Hoover in an ineffectual
death grip not to tell who killed JFK.
JFK Jr. took 15 hours to find him without his pilot and his seat in a plane
with the FUEL Swith in the OFF position like Egypt Air had.

So what WTC was a demolition with a terror cover.

None of the above was ever uncovered.

So who cares, people that say can't understand UFOs as the root cover
for all the above in oder to support status quo.

911 has been going on for years.
The Freak Flag Flies

Well you're right to a certain extent, because we're indoctrinated to be sheep, our entire lives from childhood, and then fed specific propaganda to get US to go along with whatever the new conflict is.

I must admit, to a certain degree, that there had to be the American Empire durign the Cold War to counter the Soviet Empire. The limits to that are the Soviets too used US for an excuse to be imperialistic, and used the same fear and related propaganda techniques and stories to push their imperial ambitions. Each side blamed each other, and did basically the same thing. They actually imploded, and US kept marching forward and now it's off the tracks and we're causing WW4. Even Russia has recently been warning that we're beging for M.A.D. (mutually assured destruction). The "their the bad guys" excuse they've been feeding US wore out when the Soviets collapsed. Not even Clinton is innocent of being imperialist as the Bosnia/Kosovo Wars were entirely under his terms in their entirety.

If We took the power away from the imperialists we really could use our super-force for nothing but good tings, but as long as the masses deny that it's used for evil it will continue on...

Originally posted by Inannamute
To the OP..

The USA is the country which gives the lowest percentage of it's GDP to charity.

Do you have a source for this?

If you think all Americans are great people, have you ever worked in a service industry?

Yes, I've worked in a service industry, and no, I don't think all Americans are great people. However, I've been to many places around the world, and I haven't noticed much difference between the people. Most people are nice, good-hearted, and care about their families, friends, and neighbors.

But to state that the US is the greatest country on the earth, bar none, is more than a little naive.. or blind..

I didn't say the U.S. was the greatest country on earth, bar none. However, after thinking about it, I'm having a hard time coming up with any other countries that are clearly better. France? China? Russia? Holland? Sweeden? Canada? England? Iran? N. Korea? Mexico? You have any suggestions?

I don't think The Cold War was that much of a conflict because
Russia had nothing and we owned the rest of the world.

The 50s came out with homes cars furniture super markets rock and roll
until sputnik which gave the government industrial complex reason to
go into high gear.

Unfortunately the same put LBJ and Huston on the map along with a Moon
studio that may have pulled JFK's chain along with Bay of Pigs and assorted
other uncontrolled covered government activities.

Cuban missiles were spotted by lone importer, small time smuggler, from a
nearby island who told William Lyne who told someone in the CIA. There
was some time delay in getting the information to JFK. But a spy plane made
it look odd since wouldn't we know Russian missile capability by now and
the Commander and Chief calls the shots.

Russian and Cuba were no problem, we traded with the rest of the world
and had superior technology. Russia had to give in the the computer age.
The chips didn't fall their way.

Nam was a problem. No reason to be there and every one armed and ready
to attack with a mission like Washington to the British.

We don't pick the countries actions. Don't think a vote on everything would
opn everything cause someone would control the computers.

As someone who's lived on both sides of the atlantic, to me, everywhere's pretty much the same but different.. no better, no worse.. though there are some really stinky things the US has done.. there are also some other countries have done..

The thing about charity, I do, but it's from something I read ages ago, so I have no idea where I read it (probably some news report of a study).. it stated that less than 2% is given to charity here - though I actually can't remember if that was income or GDP.. highest countries were somewhere in scandinavia I think..

Originally posted by IgnoranceIsntBlisss
Yeah, set in stone thanks to the CIA's ambitions in Afghanistan.

If you look back a few centuries you will find that Islamic Extremism has existed for millenia. Since the 7th century Islamic extremists have tried to subject the entire world to Islam, which is exactly the same goal as that of today's Islamic extremists....

Originally posted by IgnoranceIsntBlisss
"We" could have stopped them, yo.

BS...hindsight 20/20...you can always claim that after the facts ahve occurred...but you can't say the same before the facts occurred when you don't have all the information...

Originally posted by IgnoranceIsntBlisss
If we're added to terrorist watch lists then you call that freedom?

If you were branded as a terrorist, or anyone in this forum you would be in jail right now, yet you are not...

So again, this is nothing more than "unfounded claims"...

Originally posted by IgnoranceIsntBlisss
You're a US Establishment apologist, and you want me to trust you?

And you are a U.S. hater, you want us to trust you?...

Originally posted by IgnoranceIsntBlisss
Alternative theories have nothign to do with core truths about a matter like what I'm pointing out. Why we were hated then and attacked is the first line of questioning on a matter, and Bush and all of Congress has yet to come clean on this issue.

We have been going this for a long time...a Global Caliphate is the ultimate goal of every Islamic extremist. But before that Caliphate there are smaller goals that they also have.

Terrorists openly declare this goal. The Islamists who assassinated Anwar el-Sadat in 1981 decorated their holding cages with banners proclaiming the "caliphate or death." A biography of one of the most influential Islamist thinkers of recent times and an influence on Osama bin Laden, Abdullah Azzam declares that his life "revolved around a single goal, namely the establishment of Allah's Rule on earth" and restoring the caliphate.

Bin Laden himself spoke of ensuring that "the pious caliphate will start from Afghanistan." His chief deputy, Ayman al-Zawahiri, also dreamed of re-establishing the caliphate, for then, he wrote, "history would make a new turn, God willing, in the opposite direction against the empire of the United States and the world's Jewish government." Another Al-Qaeda leader, Fazlur Rehman Khalil, publishes a magazine that has declared "Due to the blessings of jihad, America's countdown has begun. It will declare defeat soon," to be followed by the creation of a caliphate.

www.danielpipes.org...

Originally posted by IgnoranceIsntBlisss
If Bush would have told US the truth about why they hated US they wouldn't have been half as much. If our "leaders" would have ever told US the truth about American Imperialism, there never would have been AI, or 9/11.

Hence your ignorance of the matter. This hatred by Islamic extremists is far older than the U.S. existed as a nation. If the U.S. did not exist, the Islamic Extremists would have found another main western enemy to hate....

The U.S. is not the problem, it is "Islamic Extremists" who are the problem.

[edit on 12-5-2007 by Muaddib]

Virtually all of your arguments were put to rest in the threads I linked in, yet you dodged them.

We've been tyranicizing the region for over 50 years, and you persist with the Ottoman Empire arguments (from hundreds of years ago) to explain what's happenng today? You explain the actions of a former empire to explain what happens today? No way what happens today could hav eanythign to do with the reigning imperialist state?

Please do go argue the 9/11 warning thread...

So if I were on ant of the terrorist watch lists, I'd automatically be detained?

I linked in sources, you didn't. You demanded that I trust YOU. Nice fallacy stating that I hate America itself because I hate the evil things that our imperial masters drives US like cattle into doing or accepting.

What about where moderd Islamic Fundamentalism came from: CIA operations and ideas starting in Afghanistan. Keep sidestepping my links and you'll keep believing what you do perhaps. The media tell US everything straight.

NO COUNTRY SHOULD HAVE HAD ANYTHING LIKE 9/11 HAPPEN!

I can't believe the ignorance displayed by the poster of the first post.

(I also understand how ironic it is to call someone ignorant, even though I was too ignorant to remember their username).

Maybe terrorists should crash a plane into their house.

The US is a relative newcomer to the religious conflict in that region. War has gone on since the inception of Islam and the split of Sunni and Shia.there is a large histroy here that we are coming into and the region is threatned.

One theory i have always had is that the Europeons figured that the US was a place to create a nation that may one day be able to go and retake the Christian land from the Muslims. 250 years later a nation of power is born and now reunites with it's EU partners and Isreal. Look at history in the last 1000 years, not the last 100. All we now need is the missle sheild and there is no threat of MAD.

we did not deserve 9/11, but it was the first strike in what will be a long war on not terror, but freedom from radical thinking and religious persucution. I don;t take sides....

Actually, the missile shield in Europe is the primary citation Putin used in his 'todays' MAD argument.

No one deserves mass killing and terrorism... well unless they commit it themselves. If someone/thing declares it can do things to people and not deserve the same then they're absolute hypocrites and have no role in a civilized society. Welcome to the global village; "we're" the biggest pick-your-4-letter-word in the community, and nobody that knows US actually likes US. Oligarchs that represent the vioce of whatever states don't count.

There's a huge argument I started to compliment this one. The number is over 20 million dead. Most of those examples are related to terrorism.

Like I said, the 9/11 victims died in vain because American's didn't wake up and relaize why we were attacked. O, yeah, you're still arguing about the old days (ancient conspiracy theoorizing)... Why wasn't Denmark attacked? Somehow refute the US history in the Middle East in the past 50+ years, otherwise your arguments are without a leg to stand on.



[edit on 13-5-2007 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss]

Originally posted by Muaddib
If you look back a few centuries you will find that Islamic Extremism has existed for millenia. Since the 7th century Islamic extremists have tried to subject the entire world to Islam, which is exactly the same goal as that of today's Islamic extremists....

Kinda sounds like the same thing the catholic church was doing around the same time. Many people died by a sword in the name of god. Granted, the catholic church isn't killing people these days but in the eyes of a muslim, soldiers from a country founded on the beliefs of christianity invading their lands does bring religion into play in our current conflicts. From what I have read, many muslims still talk about saladdin and the crusades like they happened last week. Sorry this is a little off topic from 9/11 but religion really does play a part, IMO

en.wikipedia.org...

esdad is right, this is going to be a long fight. Look how long isreal and palistine have been going at it. We will never be able to completely disengage ourselves from this.

[edit on 13-5-2007 by scooler1]

Good points I forgot to mention.

It probably doesn't help that Bush includes comments like "this crusade" in his imperialistic propagandist rhetoric.

I missed the part where anyone on this thread called the United States 'superior', and so forth? Can you point this out? I imagine I'm being overly aggressive since as-of-late, so many like to put words in the American member's mouth, though, I'd appreciate it highly if you can quote the page and user and text.

Lowest percentage? It still equals a great deal more than any other country -- Not to mention. Again. We host the most humane organizations in the world. The collective output, of 'charity' programs funded by both government and private groups is enormous.

For some fun reading:
www.globalissues.org...
www.vexen.co.uk... [ 2003 ]

Now, IIB, since you've clearly established yourself as some sort of anti-U.S. gremlin, I'm not going to bother to attack your posts -- Because, let's be frank, neither of us will give much on the others argument.
However, for the sake of discussion:

I have lived in Germany, the U.S., Russia, Japan, and done work in Africa. [Primarily, South Africa.]

And the United States Citizen is quite welcome in any of these countries -- In both a professional setting, and as a simple man, on the streets, or in the local social settings.

Again -- It's the President they despise, not the country, nor its people. And while you may disagree, that's your station, and decision to do so. If myself, and others users can't dissuade that, that's a fault of your own.