I thought the US was the land of the free.

Americia the land of the free??

Common on, not for a long time, I live in the UK am I free??

You are granted LIBERTY by your goverment, liberty as in what a sailor gets when his ship pulls into port. You are not free to go - you have to come back. You are granted a certain amount of liberty, do whatever get back on board and shove off matey.

Thats the Law of water/sea/Admilitary/Port Authority or something. Why do you think the statue of Liberty is in water?? Show me a truly free person and I will call you a lier

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

Hmm I have liberty that is giving to me at birth. I have these unalienable rights that are mine not because of my place of birth but simple because of my birth. Governments can try to inhibit my liberty but i will fight for it because it is not theres to take away. I will gladly go do protecting that liberty from whomever wants to take it.

Ay - But lets not confuse Liberty with Freedom.

With Freedom I am free to do anything. I could kick a puppy to death and sell the carcass to McDonalds in time for your next happy meal!

Liberty comes with strings attached. I can't do the above for instance. (Although there is nothing actually preventing me from doing it, there will be consequence's) and thus the majority of people are happy, one puppy lives another day and I yet again ignor the urge for a McDees.

This concludes "Where you stand" 101

Originally posted by esdad71


You folks do realize that most NY's are pretty pissed about 9/11? They are lucky that they did not get their legs broken. That is not freedom of speech, that is entrapment on the part of the banner holders.

Being angry about something does not mean you are right about it

Well I really do not see anything of note in this. Considering the offence this lot of banner wavers were causing to the average New Yorker they were indeed lucky to be able to walk home at the end.

Lets face it this vid is LAME

Originally posted by Johnmike
The problem with many conspiracy protesters is their attitude. Even in the video they label people as "Sheeple." Basically, it's either you believe in what they're saying or they throw things in your face with a stupid smirk.
Not all, of course.

Well they probably adopted the same philosophy as Bush,

You are either with us or against us

Originally posted by Mcphisto
The 'protesters' should have worn rags on their head, dressed in sheets, not shaved and spat everywhere whilst slapping pictures of Bush with their shoes!

Nothing would have been said then!

B*****DS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well you'd be deluding yourself if you actually believe this to be true, apart from the racist overtones attached to your post, I believe had they chosen your recommended attire they would have been removed from the streets before they had time to unfurl their banner.

I also find your avatar extremely offensive and am amazed the mods haven't acted on it.

[edit on 15-4-2007 by Koka]

Yes, people have the right to protest, and to tell you the truth... both parties involved in this video look stupid. You have the idiotic security (or suits) people taunting the protesters - but then you have a blatant message that will stir up emotions by the protesters... then after they get kicked off of that area - they go walking through down town NYC and shove it in to more peoples faces. I am very astonished they are still alive. I bet they are a cell of those anarchistic anti-globalization protesters that practically destroyed Seattle a few years back running around with a camera trying to get into a fight with the authorities so they can lay some kind of lawsuit on them.

Though I am not an American (I am Australian), I find it difficult to believe that something like this could happen on such a large scale without ANYBODY in a position of authority noticing.
Lets think about it.... most countries, especially countries like America, England and Australia have their political and legal watch dogs that really don't miss a beat on much at all.... yet 9/11 happens without anybody noticing a thing? This was planned over how many years? How could nobody notice anything?

I was in Lebanon on the 1st anniversary of 9/11 and on television was a documentary (with english subtitles so I could understand what was going on) about 9/11.
It showed letters from the people who ordered the attack to the guys who hijacked the planes... It had interviews with the families of the men who hijacked the planes.... it had documentation and interviews and other evidence, including video footage of these guys going for their licenses to fly.

With all of this going on; with documentaries on Arabic television about it, and that kind of evidence just floating around.... How is it that your government cannot give you or the rest of the world clear answers on what really happened?

Unfortunately, I am not the speed reader that I would like to be, so I couldn't catch it all... One thing I did catch is that even the people who made this docco think that either your government had something to do with it, or they let it happen so they could stage yet another useless war.

And can I also state that not all Arabic people are bad people. The people in Lebanon are mostly really kind, lovely, welcoming people. The people I was watching the documentary with were disgusted with the attack, and the families of some of the people who hijacked the planes were devistated... one, for the loss of their sons/brothers/fathers.... and two, because they are againsed what these men - their own family members - did. It goes againsed everything that is Islamic. Remember, you get fanatics in every religion.... Don't forget how many people Catholics destroyed, raped and murdered in their first few hundred years of establishing themselves.

Racism is a disease. Worse than cancer. There are good and bad people in every race. Remeber, humanity is a whole, lets start working as a whole.

Your racism controls you more than your government ever will.

If your brother raped and killed someone, how would you feel if the world saw YOU as the rapist and murderer?
Hardly fair is it?!

Originally posted by piacenza I thought the US was the land of the free

What gave you that impression?? just because all the presidents go on about "freedom" in thier brainwashing retoric.

You are free! Free to follow the line, free to be a sheeple, free to fill the top cats pockets. But go against the grain and you´ll get hurt.

The USA is also the land of "equal opertunity". If so how come a father and his son managed to become president? did G.W get in there on merit or because of his familys influence? Is this "equal opertunity", I bet some black chap in some ghetto who may be a genius, could get to become president couldn´t he

Its time to wake up people, the USA "best country in the world" "best people" etc etc reminds me of Hitlers "master race".

Terrorists never deprived us of one freedom. Our liberties have only been taken by the hand of the government.

Things have changed for the worst, and everyones going to get a wake up call, real soon.

Originally posted by esdad71
Nothing wrong was done on either side, however, there are many places in NY that you are not allowed to film for specific reasons. You also have to have a permit to do what they were doing and recording it.

Trust me some around here can't see the trees in the forest and would use anything and everything to claim "this is not a free country"...

First of all, I guess those people being filmed don't have rights and can't decide whether they want to be filmed or not... The people with the camera and their banners are really trying to protect their rights but they don't give a damn about the rights of others... Ha, who would have thought "other people have rights too"?...

Second, yes you do need to have a permit for doing that.

Third, those idiots are trying to use an event in which many Americans died by the hands of Islamic extremists to further their own political agendas.

Originally posted by esdad71
They were asked nicely to
1. leave
2. turn off the cameras
3. very politely

Hey who cares right?...

Who cares if those idiots just recorded on camera the faces of people who have their own rights and didn't want to get filmed?...

Who cares if there is a possibility those people who were filmed were agents trying to find out what was going on?...

Who cares about the right of other people not being filmed when they don't want to be filmed?...

Originally posted by esdad71
You folks do realize that most NY's are pretty pissed about 9/11? They are lucky that they did not get their legs broken. That is not freedom of speech, that is entrapment on the part of the banner holders.

Not only entrapment, but those people with the camera and banners are the idiots.

You can't be filming someone else, that person asks you not to film them, but then claim "oh I am an American i can do whatever i want"... Those people being filmed also have rights, but I guess some don't understand that.

There is a possibility those who were filmed were undercover police, or undercover agents trying to find out what these people were doing in front of a new building which is the site where Islamic extremists caused the previous building that was there to come down....

[edit on 15-4-2007 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by originalpuppycat
.............

With all of this going on; with documentaries on Arabic television about it, and that kind of evidence just floating around.... How is it that your government cannot give you or the rest of the world clear answers on what really happened?
..............

Do you have any idea of who is the "de facto government in Lebanon"?...

Actually, just let me demonstrate with a speech of the parliament of Lebanon and then maybe you'll understand.

"We will continue to gather at Parliament so that political forces that don't believe in Lebanon will not control us," Jumblatt told the media as he looked straight at a crowd of opposition MPs who had gathered to rebut him and his allies.

"The conflict is the de facto government, the government of Hizbullah, which does not recognize Lebanon," Jumblatt said.

www.1stlebanon.net...

Hizbullah/Hezbollah runs education and media services, among some other things in Lebanon.

That film you saw, was a presentation paid, and produced by Hezbollah/Hizbullah to attack the west with lies on their news services...

Hezbollah is one of two major political parties that represent the Shiites in Lebanon, Lebanon's largest religious group. It holds 14 of the 128 seats in Lebanon's Parliament, and is a member of the Resistance and Development Bloc.

Hezbollah organizes an extensive social development program and runs hospitals, news services, and educational facilities.[14] Its Reconstruction Campaign ('Jihad Al Binna') is responsible for numerous economic and infrastructure development projects in Lebanon.

en.wikipedia.org...

I just put in bold the parts that are relevant to this discussion.

Please before you believe the lies of groups such as "Hizbullah/Hezbollah, make sure you do your own research and find out who is behind such propaganda.

[edit on 15-4-2007 by Muaddib]

Hey Maudibb, could you possibly direct me to the sources/facts that show that film was paid for by Hezbollah? I did not catch that in the url that was posted.

Bottom line is, all they did was walk with a banner and they shouldn't be stopped for simply walking with a banner no matter what the banner says.

What if they wore 911 was an inside job t-shirts? would they have been arrested then? The whole thing is simple, people freaked out not because of the actions of the protesters but because of what the message of the protesters said.

People can't imagine the government would do such a thing, it's shocking to them and when the idea comes into their consciousness there is like a wall of denial building up inside their heads that was created by the medias influenced realities and they just freak out and deny deny deny and get angry.

People should realize they shouldn't be on the government's side but the peoples side.

Bottom line is, yes there are these ''sheeples'' going around, they are what i call
''brain washed''.

They were shoving cameras in peoples faces like assholes. Did they have a permit for assembly?

Yes, Selfless. Despite that a permit was required, they should've been able to do it anyway.

Yes, despite being at the vulnerable, emotional nerve-center of a nation over the worst terrorist attack in history, it was all about people being 'afraid of the truth'.

And out of curiosity, how does that Hezbullah argument count? Hezbullah oragnized a program which supports the U.S. government's story? Aaah, true, anti-western rebels there. The bastards!

The greatest threat to the free-world isn't some non-sensical overlord government, or society, or dictator, its fools who believe he actually exists, and make arguments, and actions in support of such theories.

When the American people in this nation has to ask the for we the people elected government permission to exercise any of our given rights under the constitution . . . is very clear that our constitution do not belong anymore to we the people.

Many arguments here already discussed only talks about what the government allows or not under the law.

But what about the rights given to us by our constitution, it should be evident that the right to assembly and protest doesn't need to be permitted by the elected government of this nation that is for the people.

When Americans are going to understand that our government exist because we the people have given them the power to exist.

No the other way around.

Remember that we hold the power in this nation never ever the the other way . . . because that is call dictatorship.

[edit on 15-4-2007 by marg6043]

The first amendment prohibits government from abridging the right of people to peaceably assembly.

Through history certain events has prompted a definition of what is peaceful or not depending on the views and opinions of each individuals.

Freedom of assembly protects everybody regardless if we agree or disagree with the people being assemble.

U.S. supreme court in 1937 in the case of De Jonge v. state of Oregon recognized the importance of that right “One cannot be denied without violating those fundamental principles which lie at the base of all civil and political institutions”

www.firstamendmentcenter.org...

The First Amendment protects peaceful, not violent, assembly. However, there must a "clear and present danger" or an "imminent incitement of lawlessness" before government officials may restrict free-assembly rights. Otherwise, the First Amendment's high purpose can too easily be sacrificed on the altar of political expediency.

No even the government can stop people from exercising expressions of unpopular views as in the case of 1963 Edwards v. South Carolina, in the issue that the First Amendment was violated when protestors refuse to disperse.

www.firstamendmentcenter.org...

Even the KKK secured their right to assemble peacefully in 1977, with the case of National Socialist party v. Skokie.

The case was won in the bases of avoiding the government to decided what its citizens may say and hear.

The government can not restrict protests or parades or other lawful assemblies in order to censor viewpoint because it dislike them.

Only when the protest limits traffic, cause congestions and interfere with other activities it can impose limitations.

And as for the fees and permit they are not to be withhold just because the officials do not like what the protest is all about.

So learn your rights and what the High court has done to preserve them.

www.firstamendmentcenter.org...

Please, enough with the camera argument..

Isn't it ironic that while he was being told to not film he pointed his camera shot on a camera on the building...

Give me a break, the hypocrisy keeps flooding.

Just wanted to say I read this site often and love the dialect that takes place. Its nice to know we still have thinking people among us.

Just saw this article while skimming the web. I think it voices some opinions I would call my own and that are very relevent to todays state of affairs. I do think he is to focused on Bush(I dont get involved with placing blame on one person) But the message is clear as day.

As for me I am 28M from NYC. I am always looking for knowledge from various subjects from Esoteric to trading stock...trying to make my way in this world and making it a little better along the way.


www.informationclearinghouse.info...


Individual rights are not subject to a public vote; a majority has no right to vote away the rights of a minority; the political function of rights is precisely to protect minorities from oppression by majorities (and the smallest minority on earth is the individual).
Ayn Rand