Billy Meier UFO Contact Hoax: Discussion

Originally posted by Michael12
I also know the man and he is straight and honest.

I'm sure he is, but his account related in your post does not support the existence of any kind of weapon. It may have been caused by some kind of weapon. At face value, it only supports a smoking hole in a tree and a fantastic story.

For those who are observing this thread, please notice the difference between those who, for whatever reasons, want to keep the "controversy" going (and it might be just perfectly understandable in terms of driving traffic to, and keeping it going) on this thread, and those who can reason their way through the information given.

That's some fine rhetoric, but what does it mean? I for one would like to read more than the same ol' tired talking points, ie; how can a one-armed man do that? "irreproducible physical evidence" (so irreproducible in fact, the originals are gone), 1200 photos, ad nauseum....

Nothing new? Same ol' same ol'? O.K.

[edit on 25-4-2007 by MrPenny]

in this letter you wrote

To be clear, we do claim that Meier's photos, films, video, sound recordings and metal alloy samples are of/from extraterrestrial objects and sources.

source:
www.iigwest.com...


so now you're saying he doesn't have the metal?
did he destroy the negatives from all 1200 photos?

if not, why won't you provide them to the group so they can be proven wrong?

[edit on 25-4-2007 by Crakeur]

Originally posted by Michael12
Despite all cynicism and know-it-all conjecture, there have been NO accomplices or financial or technological assistance ever found or revealed and no great financial gain for Meier, his family or group. He is not an attention seeker, missionary or cult leader and members are not sought out. There is one rather delusional person who wrote me complaining that he wouldn't "join" FIGU because he wouldn't pay them whatever money he thought they would demand of him and that he'd get into an argument in "five minutes" with Meier. This poor fellow is rather unclear on the concept, especially since it's kind of clear that no one would even invite such a person to join a group towards which he was so hostile - and uninformed - in the first place.

"No great financial gain". But there IS in fact a financial gain, isn't there? Typical for Mr. Horn to cruise seemingly innocent past these things. Sure there's a financial gain and the trick here is, the more people who join Meier's 'club' the more gain. Didn't Mr. Horn tell you people?

Have a look at what it takes (also financially) to become a (passive) FIGU member.
(From the application form.)

A) The quarterly newsletter Voice of the Aquarian Age(Stimme der Wassermannzeit) is FlGU?s official magazine and contains all announcements regarding new publications of written material and events, etc. (language: German!) It is MANDATORY for all PASSIVE GROUP MEMBERS to obtain a subscription of the Voice of the Aquarian Age(Stimme der Wassermannzeit). The subscription charges for the first 12 editions must be paid with the first annual FIGU membership fee as follows (all charges include free shipping and handling): Switzerland CHF 60.00 Foreign Countries (Europe) CHF 75.00 Overseas ?Economy? CHF 85.00 Overseas ?Priority? Air Mail CHF 140.00 (with air mail postage surcharge)

B) ANNUAL FIGU MEMBERSHIP FEE for PASSIVE GROUP MEMBERS ? CHF30.00

C) Furthermore, in accordance with a resolution passed at the Passive Group General Conference on May 9th, 1992, a mandatory annual contribution of 7% of one (1) month?s salary must be made. Starting with pension age this annual contribution of 7% is cancelled. The annual membership fee and once-a-year contribution of 7% of one (1) month?s salary must be received by FIGU no later than April 25th, otherwise the Passive-Group membership becomes automatically null and void.

D) In accordance with a resolution passed at the Passive Group General Conference on May 9th, 1992, it is every Passive Group member?s obligation to annually work 3 days at the Center in Hinterschmidr?ti. The mandatory work days must be performed at any time between beginning of April and the end of October. For each work day not performed at the Center, a contribution of CHF 70.00/per non-working day (with a total of CHF 210.00 for 3 non-working days) must be paid by April 25th of the following year.This obligatory ?work-or-pay? contribution is enforceable until the member?s 65th birthday. All proceeds from the 3-day work regulation aid the Center?s expansion and maintenance, but the work requirements are primarily intended to help everyone get aquainted with each other, and to give Passive Group members an insight into FlGU?s tasks and activities.

Read it carefully?
Now, lets bring that back to dollars for a more clear picture in order to see what gets skimmed of the top.

Mandatory newsletter CHF75 = $93.75
Annual membership CHF30 = $37.50
Annual 7% contribution of one months sallery,
lets say you make $1500 a month, that's $105 for FIGU
Mandatory work, if you're a no-show CHF210 = $262,50

Total $498,75 per year, per member.

Quite a bit of money and if Meier's 'society' reaches a 1000 members, then that's $498750 per year. "No great financial gain" Mr. Horn said in his post. Hmm. Maybe we should entertain the notion that Mr. Horn is selling something? Am I being "delusional"? Am I "uninformed" (in the first place) as Mr. Horn claims?

Sadly within ufology you have to watch out for some people.

Originally posted by Crakeur
in this letter you wrote

To be clear, we do claim that Meier's photos, films, video, sound recordings and metal alloy samples are of/from extraterrestrial objects and sources.

source:
www.iigwest.com...
so now you're saying he doesn't have the metal?
did he destroy the negatives from all 1200 photos?
if not, why won't you provide them to the group so they can be proven wrong?

All the negatives are gone, all 1200. Horn will dance around that and point to earlier investigations. And here's a hint for you, some of the pictures investigated were in fact lithographs (copies), not the original print. Keep asking the tough questions. Horn will get insulting and attack the other persons character like he so often does, than he'll declare victory over the 'skeptics'. Happend a few times already.

Whewie! We go from a guy with ADD, still claiming that I have said that I possess the metal and negatives, to someone who's got it in REAL bad for Meier. Soooooo, a few comments.

The last time I looked, there was nothing immoral, illegal or even fattening about someone VOLUNTARILY joining a group - a non-profit one at that - and accepting the terms of membership. I also don't see a gun being held to anyone's head to join this group. Most people probably won't anyway because they can get so much of the information for FREE and they don't see the need to participate in that way. And, using our friend's calculations here, the (presumably) average member spends as much per month for membership, including the publications, as they might for a couple of movies, dinner and a few coffees.

I happen to be pretty much a non-joiner who decided to become a Passive Member because it sounded like both fun and an educational experience. It's proved to be both. I always look forward to the yearly meeting for several reasons. I get to learn very practical new skills that have to do with working in nature and caring for the land and the property. In addition to spending time and working with friends that I've now known for several years, I get to meet new people from around the world and practice my smattering of German, Italian, French, Spanish, etc. heck, even English. I also like to spend a bit of time with Meier, telling each other jokes and making small talk.

I get to do all this in one of the most beautiful places on this planet. Occasionally there's talk about UFOs and ETs but it's a fraction of what takes place even on forums like this one; the UFO/ET thing is old news and most of the people have already gotten that it's the CONTENT, the INFORMATION and TEACHINGS connected to the case that are really important.

So, to be perfectly clear, not only is there no form of "membership drive" or any coercion to get people to join but who here would even know about membership if we didn't have our promo man here cleverly bringing it to your attention? And for this maybe we should thank him, no? (And no, I didn't put him up to it!)

BTW, everyone gets a full accounting at the meeting, so they get to see just where the money went, i.e. publishing, production, property maintenance, printing, mailings, charity work in different countries, etc.

As for the lithograph question, Wendelle once explained it to me as having something to do with seeing to it that no copies (and subsequent unauthorized prints, posters, etc.) were produced. BUT I will write and ask him to explain it to me so that I can post his answer here.

Now, having been chastised for being off-topic myself before, I thought we were discussing the ray gun. However, if one looks back at the somewhat smug first comment, and others, on this thread and then looks at the information from the actual investigation - especially including what Wendelle wrote - I think that there's sufficient information now provided for each person to make up their own minds as to the credibility of the matter.

All too often, the critics of the case try to infer that there's absolutely no difference between tons of still irreproducible evidence and no evidence at all. The other tact is to say that "it's not good enough" for their distinguished, stellar intellects...despite their own rather shoddy and careless scholarship, such as the recent, much repeated misquoting of me re the metal and negatives, demonstrates.

A huge focus of the teachings to which I refer above have to do with how to live in peace, harmony, freedom, fellowship and genuine love with our fellow humans. I think that lessons such as those would be of great benefit for some of the dyspeptic characters who seem to be addicted to conflict here.

Originally posted by MrPenny
For clarity, an official copyright can have any date placed on it.

However, the copyright office stamps the form with the date it was received. You also need a copy of the text you are copyrighting. (strangely enough you don't seem to need it for movie scripts. :puz

Thanks Michael. I believe the Genesis III copyright is one of the best avenue for a newcomer (like me) to determine Meier’s credibility. Are there any prophecies that you personally read and have seen become reality thereafter? (9/11?).


[edit on 26/4/07 by ConspiracyNut23]

Here is a picture from someone's website of the tree with a hole in it that meier says he shot with the raygun:
tree pic

And the Link to the site where it is from:
site

Inquistive as to what is funny about the forementioned sites whitewash?

Read the site.
Then what is humorous will be self evident.
Such as:

I asked him if I could see a metal sample, he agreed but I never got round to seeing it.

And:

I asked if he had any rocks, crystals I could look at (from outer space), he said he had but said they were buried away in his office. Maybe I should have offered to clean his office? :-)

and:

I mentioned that some of the skeptics that Michael is chatting to would like a metal sample but I got the impression that Billy would not be too inclined to give another one for analysis as he said the one(s) previously went to America had "disappeared."

That Clear it up for you?

Was this Ray gun a true high powered laser (just shoots light) or was it a partical beam? How long did the beam remain on after the trigger was pulled?

If I had contact with aliens and they let me fire a ray gun like that, Im sure they would tell me how it works or at least how their craft work. I'd get testable proof of undiscovered properties of earth materials and physics. Why hide the proof?

Originally posted by WhiteWash

I mentioned that some of the skeptics that Michael is chatting to would like a metal sample but I got the impression that Billy would not be too inclined to give another one for analysis as he said the one(s) previously went to America had "disappeared."

That Clear it up for you?

If you believe in UFOs than you must be aware of the cover-up. The part I emphasized is actually an excellent reason to not part with any remaining rocks, no?

PS: the pic of the tree posted by Whitewash above isn't consistent with Wendellle's testimony

Originally posted by Michael12
Here's the email from Wendelle:
...
He was examining a smoking hole, a little over an inch in diameter, burned into the 11 inch diameter plum tree trunk.

[edit on 26/4/07 by ConspiracyNut23]

ConspiracyNut23:
I'm aware of the possibility of a cover-up.
As far as the tree being inconsistent, what is odd is that the man who went on the trip to visit Meier must have been told that that was the tree....right?
So if it isn't the correct tree, is he assuming it is the tree, or was he told it is?
stranger and stranger...

Originally posted by WhiteWash
So if it isn't the correct tree, is he assuming it is the tree, or was he told it is?

Exactly. MH, did Mr. Matthew Hurley photograph the right tree or not?

here's the pic flipped the right way...


Photo Copyrighted Matthew Hurley

There isn't any real reference point to determine size. However, the hole does look bigger than in Mr. Wendelle's description.

[edit on 26/4/07 by ConspiracyNut23]

Originally posted by ConspiracyNut23
However, the copyright office stamps the form with the date it was received. You also need a copy of the text you are copyrighting.

How much you willing to bet the original forms are lost or unattainable in some way?

Originally posted by TerraX
. Keep asking the tough questions. Horn will get insulting and attack the other persons character like he so often does, than he'll declare victory over the 'skeptics'. Happend a few times already.

no sooner did you post this than our friend posted:

Originally posted by Michael12
Whewie! We go from a guy with ADD, still claiming that I have said that I possess the metal and negatives, to someone who's got it in REAL bad for Meier. Soooooo, a few comments.

Mr. Horn, I don't have ADD. Meier claims he took 1200 photos and he didn't keep a single negative? That's downright moronic and expecting people to accept that as ok in a field (ufology) where every scrap of evidence is needed to prove that something MIGHT have happened is, somehow, even more pathetic.

The Metal Alloy that you refer to in your letter must not exist either. So either Meier is lying, you are lying or you both are.

If I send you my monthly fees, my tithe etc. what do I get for it?

It's charlatans like Meier who make the whole world laugh when anyone brings up aliens or UFOs.


On a side note, I almost got arrested yesterday for trying to photograph one of Meier's alien friends. She was riding the N Train uptown and as soon as I saw her gold jacket ( I am not kidding, gold foil like jacket) I whipped out the cell phone and tried to discretely snap a few pics. A cop saw me and asked what I was taking pics of and I tried to come up with something better than "Billy Meier's alien girlfriend in the foil jacket" and the cop then asked for ID and it started to get uncomfortably hot on the platform.

Originally posted by MrPenny
How much you willing to bet the original forms are lost or unattainable in some way?

The best thing for Micheal to do would be to go the Library of Congress, retrieve the original manuscript, its catalogue # and the dated form.

If all prophecies are as precise as the Jonestown prophecy then the group should be able to easily claim James Randi’s $1 million prize.

[edit on 26/4/07 by ConspiracyNut23]

Originally posted by TerraX
Horn will get insulting and attack the other persons character like he so often does, than he'll declare victory over the 'skeptics'. Happend a few times already.

I'm waiting for it. He's exploded on this forum before, in spectacular fashion. I've also read some real gems he's sent James Randi.

Sit back, pop some popcorn, wait for the fireworks.

Some further notes on the tree. Actually there were a couple of trees, as I think that Wendelle Stevens note makes clear, since there's one on the FIGU property that still has the remnant of the hole in it and then there was the one in the forest, as well as the 30' high branch, etc. That is a picture of the tree on the property, let's remember that it's been some 30 years since the incidents occurred! So the tree has grown around and somewhat closed the hole.

As far as rare earth elements are concerned, a viewing of the Metal Analysis video and/or a read of the info, referred to before in the Investigative Report by Stevens, shows the presence of rare earth elements in the metals, along with certain other elements and gases. Vogel very clearly described (and displayed) the findings, obtained through spectral analysis, and made clear that they HAD to have been produced using a cold fusion process. Again, he also remarked at the micro-machining, which also blew the mind of a machinist I knew. The micro-machining is clearly visible in the Metal Analysis video and in pictures in the book. And it should be mentioned that Vogel is the one who reported the metals missing, it wasn't Meier. It's also said that superconductors started to come out of IBM a bit more than a year later, maybe someone wants to look into that.

BTW, I don't have time to view the other threads on this site but is there any other contested topic with this wealth of documentation, evidence, scientific analysis, etc.?

For anyone who's visited the center in Switzerland, and has spent any time on a farm, for instance,the amount of ongoing work and maintenance required to keep the place functional is understandably high. It should also be pointed out that FIGU runs by unanimous decision in its matters, it's not a dictatorship. So all decisions pertaining to dues, work, rules, etc. are created by the members themselves - and Meier has but one vote in the process. And I'm sure he has a Swiss back account...becuase he's Swiss.

Regarding the way copyrights work, one has to submit the material they are copyrighting to the copyright office. They date stamp it and the form submitted. In the case of the Genesis III material, obviously the 1979 copyright date applies to the material submitted, which included parts of the Contact Notes from 1975-1979, which had already been in the process of translation well before publication of the books, videos, etc. - as they had to be.

Regarding things that have been fulfilled after the publication of the 1975-1979 Contact Notes, there's lots. I got the notes in 1986 and first noticed their value in 1988, when I saw the article about the connection between A-bomb testing and the ozone damage. Other "new discoveries" followed - that I could simply look up in the notes from years before. I should point out that in the notes from 1975 or 1976, Meier mentions first being told about a number of the things in 1951. And one can now FREELY read the 1951 and 1958 letters on my site containing the things he referred to.

I know it's really got to frost certain parties that all of this exits and that, just when they think they've found the "hole" in the story...it just doesn't turn out that way. Can anyone here imagine perpetrating a "hoax" of this magnitude, of this consistency, detail and non self-contradictory nature, especially under the conditions that Meier lives? Of course they can imagine it, which is what the skeptic's arguments get reduced to, unsubstantiated fantasies.

And I just can't wait to see Michael Horn go absolutely ballistic, at some point, I guess but in the meantime we can be treated to the vitriol and sour grapes of those who expect it of me. The fact is, that for several decades the skeptics have attacked Meier, his truthfulness and character as if it were acceptable and fair game to do so. So when I decided to challenge them, having a bit of bombast and a theatrical flare at my disposal, I thought I'd see what the bully boys were really made of. Fortunately you don't have to take my word for the answer, which is "not much", as some of the stray fragments show up in different places from time to time to put on their brief demonstrations.

Originally posted by Michael12
For anyone who's visited the center in Switzerland, and has spent any time on a farm, for instance,the amount of ongoing work and maintenance required to keep the place functional is understandably high. It should also be pointed out that FIGU runs by unanimous decision in its matters, it's not a dictatorship. So all decisions pertaining to dues, work, rules, etc. are created by the members themselves - and Meier has but one vote in the process.

Let's say I was considering joining the organziation, would I be able to view the books so I could see the money flow?

Yes, just like I and all the rest of the members do. They also send out the info to the members who can't come to the center.