Billy Meier UFO Contact Hoax: Discussion

No, it does not give me comfort to know that the most vocal opponents of the case are so stupid, seething in unreasonable, misdirected viciousness towards people who have done neither them, nor anyone else, any harm.

We wish for more worthy opponents who could give qualified, intelligent challenges without resorting to distorting the plain truth...but maybe that's simply too difficult, based on the facts.

For those who may have not noticed, here's what Stevens said:

"I brought those copy negatives back and had color prints made, which we studied in the various studios.

I also had 4 color positive to positive prints made in Switzerland, which were the four prints we tested exhaustively in all the studio facilities in the big companies we went to.

They all always wanted us to leave the prints with them to continue to study, but we needed them for the next tests and could not leave any, or there could be no more testing. We did allow them to rephotograph them for their own further research, and for those who were not so equipped we decided to give them good lithographs to keep. That is how we got into the lithographing, which ultimately lead to the remarkable coffee table picture book."

Clearly a different story from the textbook example of attempted disinformation by someone here.

Oh yeah, get your scientists to test - and duplicate - the sounds. They're free.

P.S. Regarding spreading the information...GUILTY AS CHARGED!

After all, my "job" is being the Authorized American Media Representative. And what's better for discovering the truth about the case (which is suddenly of interest to this skeptic) than to have 4,114,000+ people examining the evidence...rather than just 10 on an internet forum?

I think this is where one says, "Duh!"

Now, how's about testing the...sounds?

Ah..the explosions begin.
Noone here is stupid Horn.
Simply because people want proof to substantiate claims that Meier and yourself make, and because they reject the so called "proof" you DO offer, does not make them stupid. It simply means yourself nor meier have conclusively proven that any of the evidence presented is accurate beyond a reasonable doubt. Let's break it down. Pictures of a "raygun" or laser: Upon examining this,
Meier says the aliens took the gun back, so noone can examine nor test it themselves. Very convenient. He also gets caught up in the pictures of alien women who are later found to be people on television. He took pictures of the t.v. screen! Then there are the dinosaur pictures, which were found to be a purposeful blurry shot of a painting. This is conveniently explained as the MIB/Agency people are trying to discredit meier. Then we have the metal samples. Supposedly experts tested these, however whenever anyone has asked repeatedly to test these it is evaded or said they are lost, or some other excuse. Then we have numerous reports that meier saw beamships and even others who were there claim they saw absolutely nothing at the time...oh..only billy can see them...he's special...riiight. There is NO evidence
to examine thus far that can be taken seriously. What do you expect. People have asked you AND Meier to present something which we can believe beyond doubt. This hasn't been done because you Cannot do it.
In my opinion Meier and his clan are a Cult, and the message(s) he and you are spreading are no different from any other cult.
Def. of Cult
If you or Meier have ANYTHING to disclose, of a nature that can be believed beyond a shadow of a doubt, by all means please present it all.
Send whatever you have to Springer/ATS for analysis.

[edit on 29-4-2007 by WhiteWash]

Hey there everyone,

Some folks here, who seem to be just begging for (or is it demanding) some testable evidence, somehow have had difficulty finding this:

www.theyfly.com...

Pretty nifty, and not all that hard to find, eh? And to understand what to try to duplicate, and what the tests revealed, here's a little help:

www.theyfly.com...

Please feel free to get back to us as soon as you've done your testing and duplicating. I assume that you're qualified, of course, and not just, how shall I put it, baiting in order to keep the controversy going. Hey, maybe we've found some worthy adversaries after all, wow!

MHorn

Some folks here, who seem to be just begging for (or is it demanding) some testable evidence, somehow have had difficulty finding this:

Finally.....I here proof that Bill Meier is legit. Great audio clips that should be considered the mother of all smoking guns.

The facts reminds that you don't answer any of the questions, you just keep copying and pasting information non related to what was really asked. Calling people stupid? is that the message the "Plejarens" wanted you to spread? or the message of love and peace that they wanted you to spread is not even working with you? stupid = cult

What part of this you didn't understand: "we need proof, documentation that an original photo was tested, not just a litte quote from someone that maybe misquoted for all we know (you misquoted a lot in your site). But lets say they did test an original, 4 you said right? so from 1200? photos they took 4, which ones were those? as and investigator of this case from so many years I am sure you will know this.

You challenged people to duplicate the photos and it was done, what did that prove? Nothing, only that an unknown object in the "air??" in a "False Perspective" way, looking like known terrestrial components can be photographed.

Please stop asking to duplicate anything, that will not prove "Nada" but like I wrote before: Can you duplicate Jritzmann photos? because if you can't using your own analogy then they must be real.

Everytime you get trapped with hard questions (you never answer them) you jump from photos, to information to metal sample to then sound recording (next will be the "prophecies", we all know your game already) you go and do this : here I go AGAIN!!

James Randi "CHALLENGED" you since 2004 to provide metal samples from meier "WHICH MEIER STILL HAS IN HIS POSSESSION (2007)". So why out of those times you visited meier you haven't do so? Are you going to visit meier this year? you still can do it. You will prove that all skeptics are wrong. Isn't that like your dream?

Am I patient or just bored?

See: www.theyfly.com...

Never duplicated. You try. Thanks. Have a nice day. Over and out.

It is simply amazing to me to see most of you rant and rave about how stupid and cheesy the gun and "getup" are, but none of you who are defaming Billy Meyer have any grounds aside from the cheesiness of the picture to do so. Also, your intellectually stunted rants (a few of you shone from the crowd and you know who you are) speaks of your maturity and your lack of understanding of how truly deceived we really are on all levels. You can get as defensive and self righteous as you like, and I am not taking your feelings into account, because you have immaturely bashed on an individual who is obviously NOT HERE TO DEFEND HIMSELF!!! It must take a lot of balls to bash on someone who can't respond to your petty insults, and also you are not commenting on the almost thousands of pieces of photographic evidence this man has produced over years of time. It isn't people like Billy Meier who hurt paranormal research, it is fools like you who are too ignorant to try and figure how he would forge the information , why he would forge it, and also it is your RESPONSIBILITY to see HIS SIDE ALSO so you can make an INTELLIGENT THOUGHTFUL DECISION whatever that may be (accepting that something is unbelievable because it looks that way is precisely why the Illuminati has such an easy time of hiding the truth; BECAUSE YOU WON'T BELIEVE IT)!! On top of this, a five year old child could post more intelligent and thoughtful posts than what you have produced, and usually I hate to flame like this, but the overwhelming ignorance and automatic dismissals of ACTUAL PRESENTED EVIDENCE (regardless if it is a hoax or not), left me with little recourse, besides I sincerely doubt that most of you would have actually read my entire post rather than reading the first offensive statements then assuming the rest. For those of you who do not fit under the broad scope of my rant (or if you actually want to learn), I apologize for losing my temper, but I bet you can understand why and remember it is up to each individual to discover the truth and everyone else will have to figure that out on their own.
P.S. It is really quite hilarious how angry people get when a certain few disagree with what they have been mindlessly accepting their whole lives (note: I get angry over immaturity, and ignorant acceptance of the lies we are spoonfed every day of our lives, which is a BIG difference). It is moreso tragic, but times will change soon where ignorance is no longer a luxury we can afford.
P.S.S. Please also note that I never made any claim either way as to the authenticity of the "ray guns", nor will I because that was never my point.
Order is Sought, Change is inevitable, Balance is my Dream.

"Am I patient or just bored?" You are neither. I am bored reading lies.
Let me see if I learned something from you. The link you posted shows this:

"A surprise came when the analysts found many small black specks, apparently caused by dirt on a previous positive, or the print. Their presence indicated that this print was either a second-generation print from a color negative copy or that the original was a copy negative from a positive transparency, and not a negative as was inferred." BINGO!!

"A conclusion that a picture is real is actually No Conclusion to the Scientist." In another words it only proves that An unknown object in the "air??" in a "False Perspective" way, looking like known terrestrial components can be photographed.

"Never duplicated. You try. Thanks. Have a nice day. Over and out."

Duplicated since 1986 (maybe earlier too) to present days 2007 and on. Pss!! are you going to change this to your usual Oh but how about the testing, because trust me you don't want to go there.

Ben Harris reproduced the meier's photos and effect 1986-1990 (page 8 to 11)
www.skeptics.com.au...

Herbert Runkel, Bernd Johann, and Thomas Klingler reproduced the meier's photos and effect 1996
www.billymeier.com...

IIG's reproduced the meier's photos and effect May 2003
www.iigwest.com...

BILLY MEIER DEBUNKED UFO IMAGES copyright2004 anthony wharton
www.nmsr.org...

uk.pg.photos.yahoo.com...//uk.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/ufosarecoming/my_photos

Alan Friswell reproduced the meier's photos and effect June 2005 (check the 3 pages)
www.forteantimes.com...

jritzmann reproduced the meier's photos and effect 2006
www.carbonchamber.com...

"After all, my "job" is being the Authorized American Media Representative. And what's better for discovering the truth about the case (which is suddenly of interest to this skeptic) than to have 4,114,000+ people examining the evidence...rather than just 10 on an internet forum?"

If that was true why you called people that visit your site "CUSTOMERS" in another forum? or you forgot about that already? thought nobody will know about that here uh? the reason you have all those visitors, customers?? is because everytime you made a dvd with meier's tales you go to online forums to promote it, exactly what you are doing righ now. You have so many customers yet you find the time to post in online forums. (because that's where you find the potencial customers right?) Anyway I am tired of your copying and paste, misquoting, mis-leading, non responsive with actual proof investigator skills.

I really liked that you never answer the hard questions as that prove that you are just here to promote the sells and nothing more. Good timing too with your new fairly tales dvd. Coincidence??

James Randi "CHALLENGED" you since 2004 to provide metal samples from meier "WHICH MEIER STILL HAS IN HIS POSSESSION (2007)". So why out of those times you visited meier you haven't do so? Are you going to visit meier this year? you still can do it. You will prove that all skeptics are wrong. Isn't that like your dream?

Can you duplicate Jritzmann photos? because if you can't using your own analogy then they must be real.

UH OH I think I am seeing figus = customers as MH calls them in here.

WhiteWash you really nailed with that post, nicely said.

Hi GideonHM,

I appreciate your clear thinking and common sense, as well as your passionate rejection of the farce that is conducted by certain parties here. Do know however that while the intention of the provocateurs here has nothing to do with finding the truth, they are unintentionally quite useful in stimulating others to find it.

One of the reasons I play over here is that I keep finding (through the info on my stats page) that there's regular, daily traffic coming to my site from the links I've posted here. That means that people want to find out the truth for themselves and are looking into the info I post and that which is linked from my site. I guess an added bonus is that certain apoplectic parties here have even started to promote my DVDs for me...something that I myself haven't done.

We can note that while this thread started off with some rather cynical commentaries about the ray gun, and assumptions that it was some easily fabricated hoax, I doubt that anyone here, pro or con, suspected that there was as much interesting and supportive information from the original investigation into the matter, as turns out to be the case. No matter which way one comes down on the issue, they will have to think about the how and why behind any hoax on Meier's part, as you point out.

The original claim, in 2001, by CFI-West (now also IIG) was that Meier's UFO photos and films were an "easily duplicated hoax". Case investigator, Vaughn Rees, agreed to duplicate one photo and one film. When he failed to do so, by March 2004, the claim instead was that CFI-West/IIG had duplicated the "effect", which is all that can be said today...except that Rees was fired and now CFI-West/IIG says that "only the hoaxer can say that something's a hoax" and other silliness.

It's safe to say that no one here (or anywhere else that I know of) can and will actually reproduce Meier's evidence. Let me clarify that a bit. None of the alleged duplicators of Meier's photos did anything more than duplicate an "effect", i.e. a so-called UFO photo. They didn't, can't and couldn't actually duplicate the reality simply because they're small models close to the camera and Meier's were large objects (primarily) some distance from it. The investigation revealed that and no amount of tap dancing by the skeptics can change it.

(And I already pointed out that an Academy Award-winning special effects company recently confirmed that models weren't used by Meier...unlike by the "effect duplicators".)

Let's remember that CFI-West/IIG has no trouble denouncing frauds (and some of them certainly are/were) and, since Randi and others are magicians, they have certainly explained how some "hoaxes" were perpetrated in the past. And really, demands from a magician to produce metal samples or anything else? After CFI-West/IIG failed to meet the challenge they accepted, Randi retracted his claim that the Meier case was a hoax, and claimed he never even said that. So much for his/their credibility.

And, of course, since I posted the link to the sounds it's been quiet on that front, no pun intended, while the little gremlins try to figure out how to attack their credibility, or simply continue to ignore the elephant in the room.

It doesn't matter. This is now my platform to use, continue to use, actually, to provide information on where to check out the Meier case to people who happen to travel through here. Judging by the actual correspondence on the matter that I regularly receive, there are very large numbers of people who are now doing their homework on this truly amazing case, so I guess I have to thank ATS, and their controversy perpetuating minions, for - unwittingly - playing their part in generating the interest.

So here's some more food for thought:

www.theyfly.com...
\
Cheers!

You really need to steer clear of the name calling, it's not what we do here.

Out of curiosity,

Originally posted by Michael12
And what's better for discovering the truth about the case (which is suddenly of interest to this skeptic) than to have 4,114,000+ people examining the evidence...

Is 4,114,000 the number of hits your site has had?

Springer...

Forgive me I am not a Billy expert...

If Billy had 1200+ negatives I would like to think he would have made sure they were safe in a vault somewhere even if it was something he made himself to protect his priceless items.

I do have a few questions that I am hopeful Mr. Horn can answer for me. I'm sure this is public knowledge already, but your here so I'd like to get it right from Billy's second hand man. (no-pun intended)

Can you tell me how many times the metal fragment was actually tested, which years, and by whom.

As for his photos can you tell me how many tests were performed, which years they were performed, and by whom?

Billy's attempts to send more metal samples to the USA. Did they go out via Registered Insured mail? How do you send something like that to the USA and not have to worry that it will be lost in transit? Or was the sample handed to someone to transit to the the USA personally?

Has Billy ever had a lie detector test?

Is he now living comfortable and having no financial problems? If so how?

Thank you for taking the time to read and answer my questions.

Originally posted by Michael12
One of the reasons I play over here is that I keep finding (through the info on my stats page) that there's regular, daily traffic coming to my site from the links I've posted here.

Aggravating is it, that you have to endure the slings and arrows of skeptics in order to increase the viewership of your website?

So that's why your posts tend to repeat the same talking points. They're all marketing blurbs. Do you reciprocate with links back to ATS from your site?

Edit: Shoot, make that 4,114,001 visitors. Yes, I looked. And I was quite upset finding a 2 yr old newsletter. Newsletter? News?

[edit on 30-4-2007 by MrPenny]

4,115,159, last I looked.

And thanks for your support and participation.

Originally posted by Michael12
Hey there everyone,

Some folks here, who seem to be just begging for (or is it demanding) some testable evidence, somehow have had difficulty finding this:

www.theyfly.com...

Somehow this sound remembers me on old science fiction movies I have seen on TV as child in Switzerland.

de.wikipedia.org...
(soory german page..check for 1970)

Not that sure which one it was but I believe it was 'Mondbasis Alpha'
The english title for that serie was Space 1999.

I didn't found the part I was looking for.. There was always a scene where the UFO's were traveling in space with the target moonbase I somehow connect that sound with this scene. Maybe it was a different movie.

Anyway back to the moonbase alpha. Here is an example ..check about 2min 30.
www.youtube.com...

Certainly not the same. But I see a chance that meier's sound was a capture (and mix?) of such a TV-space sounds. After all he also took photos of the TV and sold it as real.

The characteristic of meier's sound isn't so complicated. And as you can see at least for such TV series they did in the basics simulare sounds. You can do this by mixing some pure tones in frequences close to each others and also mix in some background 'noise' and maybe, don't knwo if required, hall it through a big room. Such pure tones you could do with more or less filled glasses. Maybe put a lot of them together and blow some air over them or get them vibration through a nother methode..something like that.

I don't say I can do it. I don't have the right idea for.

I only say I don't see that someone clever and or inovative can not produce this sound with what was available at that time.

I wonder why a spaceship should produce such a nice variating sound.
When hovering or moveing slow I had expected rather monoton sound or to be honest no sound at all, because pointless emitted sound is a vast of energy that somehow contradicts my picture of high efficient vehicles of an advanced space race. But what the bleep do I know.

That are just my thought about this sound.

Although there is a certain amount of entertainment value to this thread and others like it, all you need to know about Meier is Here. This is a waste of time and resources.

That's all we need to know?

Please note that UFO dog watcher Royce Myers was politely asked to substantiate his slanderous claims. Natually, he was unable to do so.

However, in some bizarre stroke of universal, comedic justice, Myers is now himself the target of (possibly even legal) attacks by...Kal Korff, formerly the most virulent of Meier's attackers, now himself busy being attacked (and attacking) a number of other Meier detractors. (See: www.kalkorff.com for kookie Kaptain Kal's kolossal katastrophe.)

A dyslexic might say that this shows that there really is a dog.

And I say that Meier's decades of providing impeccable, irreproducible evidence and successfully causing all of this controversy - with the proverbial one arm (not just tied behind his back) - rightly shames and defeats the myriad of meanspirited, armchair know-it-alls.

Originally posted by Michael12

And I say that Meier's decades of providing impeccable, irreproducible evidence and successfully causing all of this controversy

You sure got that right! Emphasis on "irreproducible" and"successfully causing all of this controversy."

Just for giggles, you can see the string supporting Meier's "UFOs" here.