Billy Meier UFO Contact Hoax: Discussion

I thank Michael12 for participating in the thread.

It is helpful to pay attention to the details here. The ray gun was said to affect film when it was...fired. Obviously, from the photos of the gun, it could be photographed.

A little lesson here, proof cannot be provided for anything. Evidence can be provided and it's up to the indiviual to determine if it "proves" something. Two people can, and often do, disagree about the same evidence and facts.

If my attitude had been as demanding of Meier, and others, to do my homework for me, as some people's here is of me, I wouldn't have leearned anything. As you won't either if you don't do your own homework. Hey, what's the rush? You're all pretty much just getting into the details of the case (or revisiting them with greater information and facts available now) and it's really not necessary to slam dunk it one way or another as if we're on some schedule.

To say that I'm biased in the case isn't entirely correct. I'm convinced, by some 28 years of research and investigation, that it's authentic but...as I do my best to make abundantly clear...there are many things that I consider speculative, that I can't "prove" due to their dealing with things in the far distant past, or future, primarily, or things outside of earth that we cannot verify...yet.

As attentive sudents of this thread know by now, there's nothing to believe. And in truth the case really is either authentic or not. Each one will have to determine that for themselves. To simply use baiting and argumentative techniques to try to get me to do your homework simply won't work. And any self-respecting person who prefers knowledge over belief wouldn't want, or allow that either.

I've willingly given lots of time and info because I think that there are people here who are sincere in wanting it. Obviously, if I was in it for the money...why the heck would I have bothered to spend this much time, especially since there are also a couple of folks here who are, well, a bit hostile?

Until later...

...and let me say that you're more than welcome Dulcimer. And that goes for everyone here too.

Originally posted by Michael12
...and let me say that you're more than welcome Dulcimer. And that goes for everyone here too.

Let me thank you for posting also MH. Unfortunately my first encounters with the Bill Meier stuff was his Ray Gun/dinosaur/MIB planted pics. However, you have raised some interest here and I’m looking forward to more info on Contact 115. Can you tell me where the actual text can be found? (free or not)

It’s in threads like these that I realize how right on Springer’s D-ego thread really was. There are plenty of egos flying around in this thread, making it kind of tedious to read.

BTW, MH did Meier ever receive anything for this?

Ok, well...
I really like this thread and would hate to see it die.
So Mr. Horn:
Let us speak on the raygun a little more.
Can you Please relate to us the manner in which the gun worked? As far as technical details? You had mentioned it might be compareable to our chemical lasers in nature. Can you elaborate on that? Please give us as many details as possible. Also for the record, I was not attempting to be hostile or rude. I merely wish to gather as much Intel on this particular subject as possible and of course I must debate aspects of it. Obviously through debate and communication we all learn something in one way or another so I believe all sides contribute to the discussion
I really do appreciate you taking the time to communicate with us here Mr. Horn. Thank you.

Originally posted by WhiteWash
So Mr. Horn:

Alright, I admit TOTAL ignorance and I have not been a member long enough on ATS to know... why is Michael12 referred to as Mr. Horn? Who is he? Is he someone famous/special?

Thanks and apologies for my ignorance.

Originally posted by tezzajw
why is Michael12 referred to as Mr. Horn? Who is he? Is he someone famous/special?

Michael12 = Michael Horn = Billy Meier's US rep.

althought I'm not sure this has been confirm on Mr. Meier's end. Has it?

Michael Horn is the "Michael Horn is the Authorized American Media Representative for the Billy Meier Contacts" He has researched the Meier case since 1979.
Go read his bio on his website:
M Horn Bio

EEP!! So incredibly sorry...wrong topic....ignore that post

Just saw some additional repsonses so, before I post the thoughts I had BEFORE I saw them, a couple of answers. As far as the poster goes, to my knowledge Meier did NOT receive compensation for it. As a matter of fact, Lee & Brit Elders (who claimed that it violated THEIR rights as publishers) took the issue to the show's producers under a violation of coppyright claim.To the best of my knowledge it was resolved but I DON'T know that there was a financial windfall for anyone involved.

I will post some more of 115 later but there are copyright issues about putting all of the information online. However, the conversational nature of the way the information is given to Meier, in this instance, is interesting. Please notice the lack of things such as, "We are the Space Brothers come to you in Love and Light to tell you that you are masters on your plane of existence and that your ascension into the higher planes is imminent...blah, blah and blah, etc."

As far as the Mr. Horn thing, only my mother and father called me that so Michael is fine. As to the details about the gun, there is little more if anything that I know...except to say that one of trees that Meier shot through is still on the property and the hole is still visible except that the tree has slowly been closing it in after all these years.

Now please permit me the following thoughts that I had, earlier, regarding "buying something":

Just how sympathetic do you think I should be to people who complain about buying a product (no one is forcing them to, of course) when I've spent thousands and thousands of dollars to learn everything I could first hand? How much do you think that eight trips to Switzerland, lodging, car rental, meals, etc. plus all the books and videos that I bought - and my uncompensated time - cost?

To be blunt, just how interested, how passionate is someone about finding out the truth of ANY matter if they make a big deal about getting a book, DVD, etc.? Anyone here ever buy a...schoolbook, movie ticket, computer game, etc.? The old adage about people not valuing things that are given free comes to mind - though I consistently try to prove it wrong by giving away tons of free info. Nonetheless, even here we see that it isn't always valued. How many links to how much free info did I post - and how many actual references to the specifics of it do we see here?

And the reason that I've exhorted people to THINK, more than once, is because I know that once someone sees the improbability (if not outright impossibility) that one man (yes, who did it all with the proverbial one hand "tied" behind his back) is the actual source of ALL of the still irreproducible physical and informational evidence, which has confounded scientific experts and others for several decades - that they will start to put the pieces of the puzzle together for themselves and "get it".

When I have, again more than once, challenged the challengers to actually - not theoretically - duplicate the evidence not only has no one done so, there is little acknowledgment even of the validity of the challenge, just more aspersions cast at Meier. Hey, where's the integrity in that?

While people want more and more (free) proof, where's one person taking up the challenge and proving their OWN hoax theories. Gold foil garment easy to make? Okay, take a look at the difference between the very metallic looking outfit on the alleged ET and the picture of the draped material submitted by someone here. Does anyone think for a moment that those two "fabrics" are, and will behave, the same? I can tell by looking that they won't. And why were Wendelle Stevens' words about the search for the outfit ignored, as if he never actually tried to find the material and thereby prove the hoax?

I think my points should be clear. If one REALLY wants to find and know the truth -whatever it may be - one doesn't complain about getting whatever THEY think they need to do just that.

P.S. Since we really are getting more freidnly about this conversation, this process of discovery, I hope that people here will understand that the last few paragraphs are just my honest feelings about a, also frequently in the past, encountered block to indeed getting past the dissonance and pursuing the truth together.

While I certainly don't mind a good argument, I think that we have actually passed the need for just arguing here and that we are more in a place where we are mutually communicating and searching - without anyone having to agree, believe, etc. anything.

I really wasn't going to make anymore time for the discussion but I'm actually glad that I did because, even if some of us agree to disagree, we will now create more light than heat and get some, maybe many, positive things from the exchange, however long it lasts and whatever conclusions the individuals draw from it themselves.

Originally posted by Michael12
To be blunt, just how interested, how passionate is someone about finding out the truth of ANY matter if they make a big deal about getting a book, DVD, etc.? Anyone here ever buy a...schoolbook, movie ticket, computer game, etc.? The old adage about people not valuing things that are given free comes to mind - though I consistently try to prove it wrong by giving away tons of free info. Nonetheless, even here we see that it isn't always valued. How many links to how much free info did I post - and how many actual references to the specifics of it do we see here?

I think the problem with this subject (having to buy books, CDs, DVDs, etc.) is that when you purchase a movie ticket or a schoolticket, you are purchasing the right to see the good (in terms of movies) or own a piece of something. It's like saying this is akin to buying a book of movie reviews instead of the movies themselves, from the sounds of it, because of its reactionary features.

Either way, I don't know much about the subject matter but I don't think Michael's doing this blindly/for pure personal profit, or else he would've been denounced a long time ago. I think his willingness to try and answer at least some of the question lends itself to the fact that he's not in it for purely monetary or personal reasons.

[edit on 22-4-2007 by Weirdoradio2]

Thanks for understanding. Certainly if one wants to make a lot of money, with rare exceptions, being in the UFO research field is not a major way to do it.

Now, regarding Contact 115, I'm including a part of it that deals with a topic that the Plejaren ahd a lot to say about, i.e. the Joenstown massacre. As a matter of fact, in their letter (1979) to the carter administration offering contact throught them (with Meier as their designated representative until such time as face to face would occur) they had a lot to say about Jonestown - and the destructive effect of all of our religions.

Part of their terms, in the letter, for establishing contact was for the administration to inform the Ameircan populace of the false and insane nature of earthly religions, like Christianity. Can you say, "what were they thinking?" This was relatively early on in the "official" contacts but clearly showed how little they really understood our mentality, as Meier himself confirmed for me when we spoke about this a couple of years ago.

Strange as this may seem, they were not allowed, for some time, to actually look into people here more than superficially, i.e. they, quite naively if you ask me, took us at our word. Lying to them is viewed as toitally illogical and, until the lights went on, they didn't conceive that we (earth folks) lied to ourselves and each other to such enormous degrees. The illogic of lying is that it doesn't actually change the facts but rather only delays and COMPOUNDS the negative consequences of lying.

Here's part of the transcript:

Contact #115, October 19, 1978

Semjase:

36. As first sign of the progressed fulfillment of the end-time-destiny, a sectarian massacre will take place, for which many political personalities will be severely indebted.
37. Due to murder and forced mass suicide, about 200 children and approximately 1,023 adults will find their death, while of all these, however, only a number of approximately 1,000 will still be found.
38. This drama will take place in Jonestown, a settlement in Guyana, named after the megalomania- and consciousness-damaged sectarian leader, Jim Jones, who emigrated to Guyana with a large portion of his fanatic and by hypnosis influenced followers, and established a settlement there, where he keeps his believers like slaves.
39. Through a written recommendation of many political personalities in America, he succeeded in the immigration with his followers to Guyana, where he leads a barbarian regime.
40. At the time after the middle of November, it will happen that due to force and hypnosis, he will evoke fanaticism, to which over one thousand people will fall victim.
41. Many will voluntarily ingest an offered poison and also kill their children with it, while others will be forced to do so and the rest will fall due to bullets from murder-hands.
42. The extremely degenerate sect, called ‘People’s Temple’, or ‘Union of the People’s Church’, is politically very engaged and recommended by American politicians, who carry much of the blame, that it will come to this horrible massacre, because they were the ones, who smoothed and freed all the roads for the insane Jim Jones . . .

Micheal i am going to post again the reason is i have a lot of respect for you personally not billy or anoyne else. But the amount of time you have spent trying to get your own head around the evidence thatis there.

But i must say some of the evidence i see is bad and maybe even misleading i.e raygun pics some saucer pics with string in picture.

I must also say there is some interesiting evidence i.e saucer related.

Just let us all know what is going on i.e this evidence is not true this evidence is real.

You have spent 2 decades deep in this field i respect you like i respect the 22 years warrant officer in the british army due to you showing the same lever of grit and determination.

However from my part i am asking you understand it is hard for myself when i am met with pricetags.



[edit on 22-4-2007 by h3akalee]

wow this is the funniest thing i have seen.

I mean if you look at the photos you can clearly see screws holding this together.. This looks like a kids gun from Kmart

Originally posted by johnlear
Now you could make the case that I will believe almost anything weird.
Well, I don't believe a Boeing 757 crashed into the Pentagon.

Hey you took all the good ones to believe... and if a boeing 757 crashed into the pentagon Im sure someone trust worthy would have let us know by now that happened.

ha.

Im gonna have to check mr, meier out some more, havent done all me research on him yet.

Thanks John and dont worry, you know my standpoint on the moon cities.

~Eskimo

Thanks for your understanding.

If you do want to read everything at www.theyfly.com, www.figu.org/us and www.gaiaguys.net/Meier.htm you won't have to spend any money to do so. And there will be plenty to thnk about; you will be able to come to an informed conclusion and know if you think the case is worth your time.

As for the UFO pictures, truly there isn't one photo by Meier that has a string in it - there ARE falsified photos where strings were inserted by people like Kal Korff. If you ever see the (8) films, one with three UFOs flying in broad daylight, there should be no question in your mind that they're authentic.

To answer your question further, read the Scientific Experts' Comments at my site and you'll understnad more about the expert opinions, in addition to those of John Lear and others.

Obviously a toy, it has the required red tipped barrel.

A few things:

Mr. Horn > you said that the ray gun can completely disintegratean object without even leaving a trace of ash... yet it only burnt a hole through the tree? Why is that? and not only that, but according to your information the burn-hole (or whatever you wanna call it) is not consistent and fluctuates in size inside the tree... Why would it do that?

I'm fully aware that lasers can burn holes in stuff and have watched many a demonstration. I also fully believe that a laser could be made into a portable hand-gun sized weapon in the future... but why are the burns inconsistent as they pass through the tree?



MrPenny (I think) > You complain about us calling them ray-guns, and compare to Marvin the Martian... but why wouldn't we call them ray-guns? They are guns that shoot rays. We do not know how they work, what they use, nor any model numbers. So what's wrong with calling them ray guns? I suppose now we can't call supersoakers or 'water guns' those respective names? Obviously I have to call it my "Fischer'n'Price DPH-011 Pump-Action Water Ejaculation Rifle"


As for the red colour of the tip. Why would a red tip mean it's a toy? But on the other hand, if the aliens can't be bothered painting their UFOs, why would they bother painting the tip of the ray-gun red? Red is an easily seen colour, and I would've thought a gun is not something you want to bring attention to..



Mr. Lear > I find you a very interesting person. While I have not yet come to my own conclusion about your credibility, you do seem very knowledgable about a lot of the topics discussed here. I will personally admit that I agree with a couple of your theories (cities on the dark side of the moon), while disagreeing with others (breathable atmosphere on the moon - how could it replenish the oxygen in the air without trees?)...

Sorry, all of these quotes are culled from the first two pages of this thread and unattributed.

They're pretty hillarious, but since I found them while going through some pics, figured I'd share them..

HAHA, this is ridiculous. I bet I could make a better ray gun using the materials from my home.

seriously billy miyer is a joke

in addition to the absurd pics of the "raygun"

The fact that people still believe this nut is hilarious.

he can at least supply some sort of 'evidence' (as laughable as it may be).

He should be rotting in a jail.

he's managed to make a decent amount of money by completely lying his ass off.

We have no one but ourselves to blame for buying this claptrap.

just like the rest of your so called UFO collection - all home made junk

Maybe someone from the 10th century would believe that

I think Billy may have got his ray gun to work, unfortunately, it backfired, and cooked every part of his rational mind.

Guess I had some totally sweet toys as a kid, cuz I've had "ray guns" that blow this one away.

I found Billys claims believable AT FIRST,until he started showing crap like this.Hilarious!

I also had much better ray guns as a kid. I liked the little ones you would squeeze the trigger on and it would squeel and shoot sparks.

If anyone else would care to comment on my opinions about the phrase "ray gun"....please, put a sock in it.