Why Time Does NOT Exist!

I have just read this whole thread and i have to say i found it all very fascinating!
Very good debates. to those who found LastOut to be a troll in this discussion i say open your minds a little.
I found his arguments to be very enlightening. Philosophy has always been a key player in how our world has evolved. expansion of consciousness is key.

anyway, back to the subject.

I believe time is a function for our minds to comprehend our physical experience which we call life. Consciousness is existance. pure infinite energy. the universe as we now percieve it is not the whole picture in my mind.
Current human belief is that we life on this planet, in our solar system, which is part of our galaxie, which is one of billions in our infinate universe.
Ok, fine. But that only factors in the physical. that which we can percieve.
if does not discount the idea of more dimensions. In my mind it adds fuel to the argument.
there may in fact be 10 dimensions. each dimension would represent a higher level of understanding.
what if time really was the 4th. there may be "beings" that are living at that level of perception. they would potentially not be able to comprehend a 3D existance much like we can't percieve a 1D or 2D existance.
just because 1 dimension has a 0 value does not mean that it has disapeared. it just means that we, as 3D beings, would not be able to percieve such a form.
Now there is the argument about nothingness, or No-Thing. My idea does not argue that. What I'm am saying is there are more levels to existance than we understand at this time. humans may eventually evolve beyond our current existance, but i believe that it is more likely that we move on the the next stage when we die.

The life that we live I compare more to the matrix than anything else. while we are "living" we are essentialy living a "program" if you will. when we disconnect from the "program" we will be able to percieve it all, on a different level of consciousness. Perhaps it will be new to us. perhaps we will remember being there previously, and be able to remember past lives. There may be many universes that we can visit.

All that exists is consciousness. we are all part of this as one. to be human is an experience in infinate consciousness. Time is used to understand that experience.

also for those of you who responded saying things like time exists. if it didnt we wouldnt know when to go to work.

if you think about it a little deeper than that, if time didnt exist, then everything would happen at the same moment. so everything and nothing would exist.
essentially i believe that this is that way is, however we are far from being able to precieve such an "event".
we can only percieve what we exist in, which is a 3D existance. we would have to be able to percieve everything that exists, has ever existed, and will ever exist, together to be able to truly grasp the concept of no time.

Time exists in our reality because it is needed to percieve and understand such a reality.
You have to really think outside the box to grasp the idea of Time not existing.

Thank you for your compliments

The being is 3d and "dimensions" with values of 0 do infact cease Existing in a 3d Existence; Existence is 3d, can be viewed from infinite points of reference, thus creating infinite relativity.

It's time to use logic wisely and question every thing. Just because someone once theorized that 1d and 2d exists, doesn't make it so. We can try to imagine it, but it's the same as imagining nothing, because in essence you'd have to, being that one or more of its values is zero(nothing). When we imagine a 3d object, we imagine all 3 measurements. To imagine a 2d object is to see some thing with only height and width. If this thing had no depth it would cease Existing. If this thing had only depth and height, with no length, it would cease existing... etc.

To imagine something with a value of nothing is a contradiction and a paradox. Paradoxes don't Exist, thus the thing with a value of nothing does not Exist, and that is in all its beauty the actual definition of nothing/zero

Originally posted by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal
Thank you for your compliments

To imagine a 2d object is to see some thing with only height and width. If this thing had no depth it would cease Existing. If this thing had only depth and height, with no length, it would cease existing... etc.

But LastOut ,entire Universe is 2D Energy Fields...“two dimensional lattice structures by 1D Quanta Matter“.
And than you have a photon - 3D basic particle. It moves through energy fildes. “All 3D matter in nature is in the form of photons. “

The being is 3d and "dimensions" with values of 0

If it was 0 - object would NOT exist.

[edit on 27-4-2007 by blue bird]

Originally posted by Pumcy
we can only percieve what we exist in, which is a 3D existance. we would have to be able to percieve everything that exists, has ever existed, and will ever exist, together to be able to truly grasp the concept of no time.

Time exists in our reality because it is needed to percieve and understand such a reality.
You have to really think outside the box to grasp the idea of Time not existing.

There's an excellent book by Julian Barbour called "The End of Time". He means adjusting Relativity so that time as a concept is no longer necessary.

Anyway, well worth a read, and it also explains a couple of different "configuration spaces". Frames of reference to help you to visualise more than 3 dimensions.

Look here: www.mtnmath.com...

Originally posted by blue bird

Originally posted by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal
But LastOut ,entire Universe is 2D Energy Fields...“two dimensional lattice structures by 1D Quanta Matter“.
And than you have a photon - 3D basic particle. It moves through energy fildes. “All 3D matter in nature is in the form of photons. “

2D does not Exist. You even say, if it was 0 - object would NOT Exist. We live in a "3d" Existence, and that is all there is to it. Once you realize that, every thing must have at least "3 dimensions" to Exist. 2D doesn't Exist because one of its measurables would become 0... a value of 0 means non-existence. Energy is 3d, matter is 3d.

Can't have height with out width and depth, object ceases Existing. Object requires 3 dimensions to Exist.

The being is 3d and "dimensions" with values of 0

If it was 0 - object would NOT exist.

That is what the rest of the sentence went on to say

[edit on 27-4-2007 by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal]

Originally posted by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal
Thank you for your compliments

You're welcome. I found your arguments to be very intriguing. Believe me when i say i considered your arguments heavily against my own theory.

Originally posted by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternalThe being is 3d and "dimensions" with values of 0 do infact cease Existing in a 3d Existence; Existence is 3d, can be viewed from infinite points of reference, thus creating infinite relativity.

Exactly what you said. Cease to exist in a 3D Existance. 3D is key here. We live in a physical 3D world, but you have yet to convince me that once i pass from this 3D life, that there isnt new dimensions for me to explore.

Originally posted by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal
It's time to use logic wisely and question every thing. Just because someone once theorized that 1d and 2d exists, doesn't make it so. We can try to imagine it, but it's the same as imagining nothing, because in essence you'd have to, being that one or more of its values is zero(nothing). When we imagine a 3d object, we imagine all 3 measurements. To imagine a 2d object is to see some thing with only height and width. If this thing had no depth it would cease Existing. If this thing had only depth and height, with no length, it would cease existing... etc.

For someone so enlightened, i find it puzzling that you can't grasp the idea that there are things in this universe that our human minds can't possibly understand completly.
It is impossible to visualize a 2D object. But i believe that there are many things that are mind is conditioned to understand and no understand while living in the physical reality that we call life.
I have seen no argument thus far that has prompted me to disbelieve my theory.

Originally posted by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal
To imagine something with a value of nothing is a contradiction and a paradox. Paradoxes don't Exist, thus the thing with a value of nothing does not Exist, and that is in all its beauty the actual definition of nothing/zero

Even if you are right that 1D and 2D objects cannot exist anywhere in the universe, that argument does not discount the idea of more dimensions.
We know that we have 3 dimensions that we live in, so be default the 1st and second must exist. even if they dont exist without all 3 together, they still exist none the less.
Given that fact, it is entirely still possible to have more than 3 dimensions and not be able to understand or percieve them.

Sorry, but surely 4 dimenions. At the very least 3D spacetime. For while time as a concept may be unnecessary to the rarefied world of relativity, its the best approximation for the observed facts. The fact that all physical equations are actually time independent (i.e.: there is nothing in any equation that implies that it won't work equally well if time were reversed), is a bit of a glitch, as when we see a cup fall from a table and smash to pieces, through time, we know that it is never going to reassemble and then leap back onto the table.
Time could actually flow in either direction, and may do so, between concrescences, but it is only ever perceived as flowing in the direction in which entropy propogates.

Originally posted by Pumcy

Exactly what you said. Cease to exist in a 3D Existance. 3D is key here. We live in a physical 3D world, but you have yet to convince me that once i pass from this 3D life, that there isnt new dimensions for me to explore.

When the physicality of nothing, true emptiness and void can be shown to Exist (which is impossible by the way) then I will believe in a 1d or 2d Existence (which will never happen). The problem here is this; you aren't going to pass from this 3d life in to some super/hyperdimensional heaven or what have you. This is it. It is eternal and when you die the energy that is you will be recycled in to the Earth and the "uni-verse" for consumption and transmutation just as you recycled its energy for your consumption while you were living. You won't pass from this 3d life, the body that you are and the entity that you currently are will pass away, but the energy that was and is you, and was recycled through your food, through your drinks, oxygen, hydrogen, etc. will continue for eternity, transmutating and transforming as it always has and always will.

For someone so enlightened, i find it puzzling that you can't grasp the idea that there are things in this universe that our human minds can't possibly understand completly.

Our Human minds are intelligently evolving intelligence, intelligence is evolved, and evolution is an intelligence evolving intelligently. We are "encoded" if you will, to understand all that we are, and we are the "universe" and not separate from it. We are a by-product of it, more so we are the actual thing its self.

It is impossible to visualize a 2D object. But i believe that there are many things that our mind is conditioned to understand and not understand while living in the physical reality that we call life.
I have seen no argument thus far that has prompted me to disbelieve my theory.

All that we are is the physical. Existence, non-Existence. Physical, non-physical. Energy can neither be destroyed or gained, what we are is physical and it always is.

Physical/tangible, etc. The untangible don't matter, only philosophically to allow us to become aware of what we truly are through knowing what we truly aren't and can not be.

Even if you are right that 1D and 2D objects cannot exist anywhere in the universe, that argument does not discount the idea of more dimensions.

What more could there be? Height, width, depth, that in its self is the experience of "time", no need to create an other dimension. Also know that it is timelessness, for Existence had no beginning nor an ending.

We know that we have 3 dimensions that we live in, so by default the 1st and second must exist. even if they dont exist without all 3 together, they still exist none the less.

Yes, the first and second Exist, but not independent of a third. Look towards your 3's, your 9's, your 6's, and your non-physical dichotomies expressing them selves for you to know in the physical.

Given that fact, it is entirely still possible to have more than 3 dimensions and not be able to understand or percieve them.

The above was a fact, yes, but I'm not sure how that equates to the latter. It is entirely possible to have nothing too, but what is there to show for it? It shows that the 3d is all that we are. Height, width, depth, can be experienced through infinite realms of relativity and reference, but always only height, width, and depth.

Nothing shows that there is no beyond and also shows what beyond is: nothing, we're always here in form or another

[edit on 27-4-2007 by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal]

Originally posted by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal
The problem here is this; you aren't going to pass from this 3d life in to some super/hyperdimensional heaven or what have you

I believe that when we die, as you mention, our energie is of course never distroyed, however i do think that there is more than this physical existence.
You could tell me till your blue in the face that this is it, and i could tell you till im blue in the face that there is more.
the fact of the matter is, neither of us will ever be able to prove one idea vs the other, so I'm going to agree to disagree.

I am not a religious person. I believe that religions are used to control the masses. However, I do believe is something beyond this life. When i pass from this life, I anticipate taking on another form of consiousness. Not really reincarnation, but more the next step.

I think of "life" as an event, an experience if you will, that infinate consciousness is taking part in. Once this life is up, there will be a new experience to take part in. Maybe a new physical world, where the laws of physics are completely changed. Maybe a new experience that we cannot begin to imagine in this reality.
The best analogy i can think of is a kid with a box of video games. the kid being "consciousness" and the games being "lifes" or "experiences".
Once the kid has played through one game, he reflects briefly on what he learned along the way and then moves on to the next game.
This is essentially how i view consciousness.


This idea does not discount NOTHING, it just expamds the possibilities of what nothing is NOT

[edit on 27-4-2007 by Pumcy]

Originally posted by Pumcy
I believe that when we die, as you mention, our energie is of course never...
This idea does not discount NOTHING, it just expands the possibilities of what nothing is NOT

I understand your position.

What I present is not for the weak of mind nor the fantastical or the wishfull. It is Existence, plain and simple. Every thing is conscious and conscious is every thing. Your energy will one day, and has been before, be of a more intellectually evolved entity.

This is the time for your next step/enlightenment, there is no reason to wait for death to truly live. Life is now, life is here, life is limited and unlimited. Limited in the sense that you and I will die and unlimited in the sense that it is eternal through out the endless and beginingless "Existence/universe", that which we are.

Nothing is nothing, what is nothing not? It is only not Existence/universe. The possibilities of what Nothing is not, and of what is not Nothing are unlimited, since Existence/universe is what Nothing is not, and the possibilities of Existence are unlimited, being that Existence/universe has no boundaries due to Nothing being outside of it... and "Nothing" is non existent.

Nothing is definitely not some thing, though it has to be for us to comprehend it. It allows its self to be expressed through some thing (symbols so that we may know its expression), though it is truly no thing. Don't be decieved, because even nothing is unlimited. That is the duality of nothing.

Every thing is and is not because of no thing

[edit on 27-4-2007 by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal]

Originally posted by 2manyquestions
I just had an idea. I'm not even going to attempt to try and explain what time is or if it exists, but I did have a thought as I read through all the posts.

One last thing...... One night I dreamed my whole day before it happened. I know there are others who have too. Sounds crazy, but what's that all about? What's with Deja vu? A glitch in the brain, or remembering the future? I don't know.

My first precognitive dream was when I was seven, and in the thirty plus years since, I have had at least half a dozen. Some of them were perfect in every detail, and I even had one time when I knew what was about to happen before it did because I already remembered my dream and was waiting to see if it was going to be the same. It finally got to me, and I felt the need to come up with a theory of how that is possible. In the years before that I just filed the 'neat' experience away and didn't try to wonder how. The conclusion I came to was that all time exists in the moment, and the past, present, and future are simultaneous. I found others who felt the same. If time were linear, and the future yet to be, how do some people see it? If one can just accept that no one can see the future, that is a very simple solution. What if you can't? That was my problem. Now I just see time differently, and for all intents and purposes my life has otherwise not changed.
When I read about other people who had such precognitive dreams, it is certainly a relief. Most people are sure it is not true, can't have happened, and has a logical explanation. I guess it does, but not how they think it does.

Originally posted by knows_but_doesntWhen I was young and just out of high school some friends invited me out on a journey, a kind of psychedelic journey let's just say. I have always been the one to wander off and ponder life, star gaze, etc. So, as I'm sitting down alone, staring at the sky, I hear one of the guys yell to everyone around that it's "time" to go. So, I wondered to myself, "What is time?" At this moment, this voice comes out of the sky and tells me "There is no time, there is no yesterday, there is no tomorrow, there is only now"

Take it for what it's worth. Sounds crazy eh? I agree. But if you knew me then, you would know that I would have NEVER came up with a statement like that.

Can I ask has anyone else experienced something like this?

Crazy or not, it fits with what I came up with out of necessity. Imagine a dream where you see a perfect image of a future event, though at the time you don't know it isn't just a dream like all the others. Then after about six times you finally find that the linear time model doesn't allow that to be possible, so you try to come up with one that does.
I came up with the idea that there is only now.
So I agree with the voice.

When I was younger the same would occur. I would have dreams that would play out vividly and exactly as I saw them, and at the time didn't think any thing of it because I was so young. As I grew up I realized it was not "normal"

Originally posted by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal
2D does not Exist. You even say, if it was 0 - object would NOT Exist. We live in a "3d" Existence, and that is all there is to it. Once you realize that, every thing must have at least "3 dimensions" to Exist. 2D doesn't Exist because one of its measurables would become 0... a value of 0 means non-existence. Energy is 3d, matter is 3d.

Can't have height with out width and depth, object ceases Existing. Object requires 3 dimensions to Exist.

XYZ vectors od 3D spatial dimensions are measures of things. It is based on what we SEE. We count.

YOU know, that our eyes, do not perceive 3D - but 2D pictures, and than our mind conceive third dimension.

YES!

I've been thinking this for so long, but I've never been able to really put it into words.

Time is just a human invented measurement, there is no "Stream of time", its just change.

Which is why I believe Time Travel is not possible.

Spatial Dimension are independent of each other.

You can have infinite number of movement in any direction independant of others. You can go up and down - but not right and left.

But object can move just in ONE direction per Time. We are always mouving in me dimension. Even if not moving at all. It started with big Bang or with something else...

Living is Time!

[edit on 29-4-2007 by blue bird]

There's only one instant, and it's right now. And it's eternity.

Time has always existed and always will. There is no "beginning" of time and there will be no end. Time is only percievable on our plane of existance as a measurement. Nothing exists just as everything does. You can not actually see that there is nothing unless you can see everything. If the now was all that existed everything would be happening at once, therefore nothing would be percievable. We live in a 3d world and there are no true measurements of zero. If there was, it wouldn't exist. Which also means that for time to not exist, it would need a measurement of zero as well.

Originally posted by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal
That's because Nothing is and is not real, so I half way agree with you.

What does this mean in far simpler, and i am being generous as i consider it nonsensical, English terms?

Thank you, I value my awareness of Nothing, maybe when you come to it you'll realize an Existence of no time as well.

How can you be aware of nothingness? What part of your brain do you believe you are using?

"Fundamental nature" is an expectation derived of narcissistic Humans, non-fundamental nature is a nature of no expectations,

Once again there is no sense to be made of nonsense so either clarify or at least bother to attempt saying something remotely understandable. There are a great deal of fundamental 'known's' and it's why we have have technologies that works RELIABLY.

this is how the Existence functions outside of Human's current silly expectations.

Most humans have quite realistic and humble expectations and what i consider 'silly' is your contributions in relation to these issues.

I don't wish to argue, but you still haven't shown me where it is that I messed up.

What do you mean you do not wish to argue? Are there anything related to the modern sciences that you accept as worthy of your superior awareness? What material should i attack when you offer nothing but nonsense? What scientific points of view are you defending and which authorities in these areas are using as reference?

I'd like to be pointed in that direction, please, so that I may help humanity and the consciousness of, to move forward in their understanding of themselves, that which is the Existence.

Why do you bother typing when your saying nothing? There is a great deal about our universe we do not understand , if anything at all, there is NO point to going about making the accusations you are. You are clearly no authority and this issues and unless you can substantiate your claims about 'absence of time' your wasting almost every one's time.

I all so know something about some thing. Throwing stones doesn't feel good when they bounce front off and come back on you.

When they start bouncing we can compare 'emotions' but until then i suggest you start digging yourself out of the heap that is rapidly forming around you.

Again, I don't wish to argue. I'm here to talk about time, you are yet to show me where my awareness of Nothing is false.

An awareness of 'nothing' is even more nonsensical than claiming that time does no exist and do not pretend that you do not want to argue when you are already propagandizing.

This is more like a game of lawless political literacy, not that I wouldn't enjoy such a puzzle under the correct circumstances.

Policy making and politics in general seems positively enlightened compared to what your involved in on this thread.

"They're" is the word we're looking for here.

And i think you will serve the community well, and certainly far better than you do now, if you limit yourself to helping people with what you yourself have a firm grasp of.

Perhaps it was induced? Thus making me over attack, so as to obtain the ability to observe it. Or maybe I'm just over attacking because its old and gets us no where, but I'm certainly not trying to attack, you can be sure of that.

Since your attacks on the apparent reality of time is so vapid in nature nothing short of what i am doing should be expected.

Correct, there is Nothing to work with, I'm trying to open the consciousness to that.

Oh there is PLENTY to work with in the sciences themselves and i was attempting to point out the fact that your disagreements do not seem to be grounded in any scientific investigation of the issues.

The nature of your post comes from a deep anger and/or personal dilemnas. Learn how to control it and we can have a civil conversation about time.

When you start employing some of the high school physics ( i supposing you had some but i'm now wondering) you had to study i will employ some more of the civility i did not even have to go to school for.

I'm glad I don't fit the classical sense (shwew, survived that era), perhaps I fit the renaissance or industrial sense of failing?

They were at least in some regards working within limitations but since you have far less in the way of excuses ( the internet anyone?) i don't have all that much sympathy with the nonsense i know your spouting.

Maybe I unevenly failed as opposed to "not even failing"? This is a new era, it's called Existential consciousness.

Only when one employs drugs while having no grasp of or education in the sciences.

Here there is and is not failing and there is and is not success in every thing that we do.

Sounds like more nonsense to me but since you like typing so much feel free to elaborate.

That is banal. Just know that it is Nothing that is beyond you, and how could that be? I still wish you a delightfull evening and many wonderfull days ahead.

Since i believe myself to be quite ignorant of the volume of information that makes up reality but i also believe that i have a relatively good idea when i am being sold a bunch of nonsensical rubbish. What you are 'selling' here is far beyond the normal rubbish i deal with in a very civilized way and if were not so desperately arrogant in your vapid beliefs about things you clearly have no understanding of i could easily have sympathy with your shear ignorance. Since you seem to revel in your ignorance , while spouting nonsense, i'll be as blunt as i believe the forum will allow me to be.

Non-sense is admired, it breaks the rules of so called "common sense" and some where in between we find the truth of the un-whole matter

Common sense works quite well enough and if we did not have so many non-sense spread by people posing as authorities, in authoritative style, common sense would prevail far more frequently over this type of trickery and arrogance. I'm not yet sure if your really as ignorant as you seem to be but it matters little as ignorance so arrogantly defended is as bad as spreading lies.

Stellar