Why Time Does NOT Exist!

Originally posted by cymro
Possibly, you're all making this too complicated. The point is that time is an ILLUSION that WE perceive. It is a perception that is necessary to us, in our mortal/physical state. It is how we are "hardwired." "Who" (or what) did the wiring schematic, and how, and why, isn't something I intend to ponder here (although I do, often, elsewhere).

An illusion perceived is an illusional reality, that is what we are. Awesome contribution Loved it, cymro.

Example: A frog literally does not see a fly until the fly moves. Quite literally. That is, an electroencephalogram (EEG) of a frog's brain shows that the fly (as far as the frog is concerned) DOES NOT EXIST until it moves. The "why" of this makes no intuitive sense, as a frog's life would obviously be easier, and the frog would be be much more well-fed, if it could see the fly at all times.

Superb example: This is a closed system at work. The frog is ignorant of the fly's Existence until it moves. This is why we must accept the duality of right and wrong, existence and non-existence, and awareness and unawareness, because not all beings are as divinely aware as we are... even amongst our selves, we differ.

Think about that. We are not frogs, but we are certainly also not aware of the true state of the universe around us. Not capable of being [fully] aware. Literally do not have the capacity. We can see flies before they move, so one must wonder about what it is that WE cannot perceive. In addition to the true nature of time, that is. Think about that some more...

I think some of us are becoming very aware of the true state of the "uni-verse" around us. We can accept that we are eternity and (the definition of) nothing, nothing masked as eternity and eternity under the veil of nothing. When we accept that we are eternity and that we are unlimited, then we become that full awareness, because even eternity its self can not completely encompass its self, because eternity is not encompassable, thus we are already this unlimited potential, it is merely a matter of acceptance.

Incompossibility is a lie.

We can only not perceive, optically that is... Nothing as non-existence. Yet we must also accept that we can see nothing. See, a thing is measurable. A thing must appear to be divided/separated from other things so that we can measure it. Well, existence is eternally interconnected, that is both space and time, no beginning and no end. There is no space of non-existence separating any thing from any thing else. Thus if we are to truly measure accurately, on a super-micro level, we would see that we are all connected and immeasurable, thus we are not a thing at all, rather an immeasurable nothingness.

Nevertheless, as we increase our knowledge (on a species-wide scale), and begin to utilize instruments to examine the universe around us at a level that we cannot do with our own senses (that is, to "see" the fly before it moves), we are also beginning to realize that the universe is far stranger than we can perceive. It is a universe that changes [(only???) at the quantum level] BECAUSE we observe it. It is a universe that appears to not "notice" the passage of time that we perceive. (If you have not yet read "The End of Time," mentioned earlier, you really should; excellent!)

But these are our own senses. The mental sense, the consciousness, the for gotten sense that is all the senses blended as one to slowly unravel eternity. We are the senses of eternity sensing its self. We are in and of eternity and eternity is in and of us. I am aware of the passage of time that "we" perceive and also aware of no-time. That is why I can claim that I am the "uni-verse".

It is good to be aware of this. It is impossible to truly understand it. It is also impossible not to try; this is another part of what makes us human.

Nothing is impossible, and nothing is not impossible If you can say that it is impossible to truly understand it, then you truly understand it Watch what you say, because we give our selves our own truths.

Another something to think about, related to the "passage" of time: Why do dreams always end, in perfect context, right at the moment you wake up?

That's a vague assumption. Some times I have memory of more than one dream when I wake. Dreams are induced naturally by a chemical(s) released in the brain, like an acid trip, '___' if you will. Once in a while my dreams play out in my "awakened" state. uV aJ eD

Curiosity is the cure for Boredom;
There is no cure for Curiosity.

Good Evening -

The cure for my curiosity is mystery, this mystery is eternity, but is no longer a mystery all. The cure for curiosity is unlimited imagination and combined with the knowledge to open up that avenue of sempiternal capabilities is the means of which to eternally drink this cure. In essence... curiosity equipped with the knowledge of eternal consciousness is the cure for a curiosity bounded by "uni-versal" limitation, that which would ultimately lead to boredom. Curiosity is not ill, it needs no cure. Curiosity is the nature of sentient beings, this curiosity is fueled through undying compassion, compassion that is ever rendered through love and care, love and care known through hate and carelessness.

Absolutely astonished by your post. Greatness, cymro Gives me a rising sun smile

[edit on 18-5-2007 by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal]

Originally posted by Spoodily
Everything in existence is a wavelength, inter-woven and infinite (God, if you please, the ultimate frequency).

I hope you don't mind me nit picking, yet for a honorable and existential purpose. We are not in existence, we are of existence and existence of us. There is no in because there is no out, there is only of. God is Existence/universe, universe/existence is God. We are the universe/existence, we are God. Magnificence post, Spoodily.

'Time' is the sensory reception of wavelengths of light, sound, heat, gravity, etc. at a certain point is space. 'Time' is relative to the perceiver when the waves of whatever they are observing passes over them.

Passes through them. Wondrous statements

Time is not a universal constant. You are always in your own 'present' and it moves forwards in tune to a certain frequency.

Earth "time" is not a universal constant, but the experience of the present is. No-time is a universal constant. No-time is the eternal moment, we are all (existence) synchronized to this. Existence (eternity) is synchronistically, simultaneously, and perpetually happening at once.

Think about a duplicate earth where they run at 2x our 'time'.

Do you mean 2x our revolutionary speed around the sun?

They would not be perceptive to the fact that they were moving very fast in comparison to us. That is the frequency they are tuned to.

Actually they would/could be if they could view us moving in relation to them.

Fractals show visually alot about time and the way things in nature develop in patterns. Scaled duplication, infinity...

Thank you for the more mathematical approach on proving time Scaled duplication to infinity both large and small, show us also that fractals and patterns reveal not only our perception of time, but also eternity.

Originally posted by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal
A closed system is measurable, there fore easy to predict, measure, and carry out all other forms of procedures that would come with the expectations of a closed system.

That is not in fact the case. A closed system can be known to exist without it's internal dynamics understood. Since we do not have any closed systems , that i am aware off, to inspect we should not be drawing conclusions to start with.

Where as with a strictly unlimited and open system none of this applies.

Obviously not as that is even less well understood.

The only consistency of eternity is that it is constantly changing, thus it is consistently unconsistent and unconsistently consistent. As far as the "un" is concerned; that's an allotment of language that is unconsistent with various other partitions of the same language (English). In- and un- are used in completely different interpretations for a multitude of words.

Calling 'change' consistency is illogical and false. There is nothing constant about something that is in/unconsistent and you can not make it so with word plays. What exactly is your literary qualifications as you sure seem to think you are qualified to tell us how languages work or do not.

I, as an amazing intellect, find this shockingly ominous.

I, as a not so amazing intellect, find most of what you say ominous and or absurd.

It is obvious to me that we are the creators and creations of our own destiny, thus if the very words we are using are not consistent with them selves then we are doomed to unconsciously destroy us and any hope for survival and an enlightened awakening.

And while you spend time contemplating such utterly nonsensical conclusions the rest of us are reading books and dealing with the substance you seem to consider irrelevant on your higher plane of cogitation.

Actually it is the complete opposite. It could only be an unlimited and unclosed system if we knew that the randomness was not being affected and in effect confined by the limited expectations (wishes) of a limited amount of people(s): There are an unlimited amount of beings and thusly an unlimited amount of expectations and wishes throughout eternal Existence that spans the fabric of endless and ubiquitous space and time.

Actually we can count the number of people on Earth given a will to do so and there is nothing unlimited about that number or the amount of wishes and expectations they hold. I did not propose that the universe is only affected by such inputs so you are misrepresenting what i said. There is no evidence for that unlimited amount of being or a eternal Existence or endless and ubiquitous space and time.

I agree with the experiments as I have read of them, but that experiment is still a closed system being operated within an unlimited system. When the unlimited system can be understood and operated you won't have to do any thing that you don't want to do. Earth will transform in every way.

Those systems are closed only in the casual sense of the word as it at best assumes base line without knowing that that is the sole input method. Once again we have nothing remotely in the way of hard evidence that the universe is in fact a closed or open system so i ask that you please stop pretending that you do.

I am not here to impress you.

Good for you as the impressions you have left are not worth mentioning in polite conversation.

If you expect that my intentions are to entertain the yearning of your conjectured apprehensions about intellectual impressionsism then you will be viciously diss satisfied.

I also expect to learn SOMETHING, however insignificant, but in this case i am still waiting and fast losing hope that you do in fact have something to show or teach.

I am here to spread the truth, not to full fill one's wants and needs.

What truths? I do NEED and WANT you to substantiate your ramblings and meanderings if you respond to my posts as i am not here as disciple to have my head filled with nonsense. If you can not respond with substance at least stop wasting my time.

I diss miss no systems. I am comparing the current model of physics which is based entirely on closed systems, including attempting to close Existence in to a bubble "uni-verse"(s), to the truth of the unlimited system that we all are and that we all share, that which some may refer to as "God".

But you have offered NOTHING in the way of evidence of substance to support your attack on convention. You in fact do not even seem to be aware of all the 'holes' in convention you could be spending your time exposing and questioning. You sir are certainly wasting my time and i hope that most share the conclusion as the alternative would not say much for the ATS membership.

It does and it doesn't. The awareness of all beings must be respected, thus every thing is and is not.

This statement has nothing to do with our current discussion. What awareness of all beings must be understood? What the hell are you talking about?

Existence tells us this and explicitly so, even through "physics".

I must have missed the universe declaring itself and it's physics so feel free to point me in the 'right' direction.

All forces act upon each other and never is there a space of division and/or solitude of oscillations and temperatures throughout Existence, but if chosen to be viewed in such a way, then a closed system can be seen. The only way this closed system can be seen is to ignore the forces that are externally acting upon it.

A closed system by mere definition is one where it can be shown that external forces are in fact external and plays no part in the closed systems dynamics. We do not know that all forces act upon each other over universal distances so what is your point here?

To view a thing as separate is to isolate the self.

More meaningless pyscho-babble conclusions that you are pulling from thin air.

This is where we currently are in cosmic terms. Untill we over come this lack of awareness we will never be modernly introduced to any one out side of our own world.

The fact that you even bother to consider that you know where 'we' are in cosmic terms is ASTOUNDINGLY arrogant. The fact that you are reaching these 'conclusions' in the absence of even the most basic trains of evidence is no less so. Such deluded arrogance is truly rare even on the internet and i am seriously wondering what kind of medication you are taking or should be asked to take.

Because an unlimited system is unlimited in all ways, the only consistency is that the outcomes and measurements are unlimited, eternally.

Using what physics or understanding of which disciplines? Where or how do you come up with this 'stuff'?

We can trace and measure every thing,

No we can not.

there is only nothing that can not be traced and measured, but even still... nothing can be comprehended.

Based on our understanding of what exactly?

I am not here to make things easy,

I am not assuming that things should be made easy but i do expect some measure of consistency and appeals to some kind of authority. You have no authority and cite non yet you keep going on as if you have in fact said something of merit.

I am here to make things peace full and intelligible for the future, nor am I here to express my personal opinions.

The only thing you have done is expressed personal opinions and in my opinion pretty stupidly arrogant one's at that. Where do you get off claiming that you have the capacity to do any of those things when you can not string toward ten words towards a sensible conclusions or claim?

What I present can not be proven wrong, ever, because there is no right, nor is there a wrong.

What you present can not be proven, period. I know it appeals to you to make claims that are hard to disprove but i can assure you that one does not gain credibility anywhere by frequently appealing to such a defense.

[quote. there is complete acceptance of the duality that then reveals the most high triality: that is Existence.

hehehe. People like you inspires a warm glow of naked superiority in me. God knows i should not allow myself these types pleasures/delusions but some people.....

I do not want you to stop questioning, only to refrain from calling it my "opinion"

I won't stop questioning even thought there is very little reason to question such nonsense to start with.

By calling what you present your 'opinion' i am being very generous and you should not so greedily demand recognition you have not done anything to deserve.

Is there any way i can convince you to stop making up nonsense or will this horrible experience go on for a while more?

Stellar

Stop the insanity!! Time exists. I know this because it is now officially time to end this thread!!

Time is unit but we must accept that there are waves of time and what is opposite to time?

Originally posted by StellarX
Good for you as the impressions you have left are not worth mentioning in polite conversation.

You seem to mention them any way, just pointing that out for you.

I also expect to learn SOMETHING

That is where we are going wrong. Your expectations are keeping you from learning nothing.

If you can not respond with substance at least stop wasting my time.

It is your choice to choose whether your time be wasted any more or not, not mine.

But you have offered NOTHING in the way of evidence of substance to support your attack on convention.

That is correct, absolutely nothing. I find it ironic my self as I would expect many others to as well. Nothing is really eternity and eternity is nothing, thus every thing is eternal.

You sir are certainly wasting my time and i hope that most share the conclusion as the alternative would not say much for the ATS membership.

If time is so important to you then I shall respond to you no more. My respect, as with others, is earned and not demanded nor abused. Polite, truth seeking, and civil conversation abiding by the ATS T&C is all that was asked for. If you are willing to try once again then let me know. It is not I making snide remarks and false accusations about you.

I must have missed the universe declaring itself and it's physics so feel free to point me in the 'right' direction.

Honestly, and in all sincerity, a mirror and a physics book would help. You are not in any way separate from the universe, you are the universe declaring its self.

A closed system by mere definition is one where it can be shown that external forces are in fact external and plays no part in the closed systems dynamics.

Exactly. That can only be accepted through denying the infinite and eternal interconnection of all forces... thus the illusion of closed systems are seen and the fallacy of "external" forces prevails.

More meaningless pyscho-babble conclusions that you are pulling from thin air.

It does have meaning beyond your snide replies and false accusations. Where did you expect me to pull it from? No one else has seemed to figure it out. There always has to be the/a first in a closed system (Earth).

Such deluded arrogance is truly rare even on the internet and i am seriously wondering what kind of medication you are taking or should be asked to take.

Now you're just making personal attacks and being mean, I have for given you, but I'll have you know that I take no medicine except for an occasional beer now and then.

Using what physics or understanding of which disciplines? Where or how do you come up with this 'stuff'?

Eternity. It is me and I am it.

No we can not.

Your limited awareness is respected.

Based on our understanding of what exactly?

Nothing.

I am not assuming that things should be made easy but i do expect some measure of consistency and appeals to some kind of authority. You have no authority and cite non yet you keep going on as if you have in fact said something of merit.

Authority is not seeked nor is it answered to. I am a self governed autocracy, but allowing others to evolve if they so wish and not wanting any power over them. If what I present angers you to the point that you must personally attack me instead of evaluating the 'substance' then it is best for both of us, and out of respect for each other, that we cordially bring this conversation to a halt.

The only thing you have done is expressed personal opinions and in my opinion pretty stupidly arrogant one's at that.

This is not a personal attack nor a snide remark, but it is the truth: you are allowed "your" 'stupidly arrogant opinion of me', but in doing so you will lose much of my respect for your judgement. As I think no less nor higher of you than me, or of you than any one else here.

What you present can not be proven, period. I know it appeals to you to make claims that are hard to disprove but i can assure you that one does not gain credibility anywhere by frequently appealing to such a defense.

Exactly. Nothing can only be proven through the words and that takes intelligence and patience. They are not claims nor are they disprovable. It is merely the truth of every thing, that is why I am not arguing when you want me to... there is nothing now here and nowhere to argue about and that would be pointless because it is already known to be not known. I don't want credibility nor am I here for offense or defense, it is not a battle that is seeked.

originally posted by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal: there is complete acceptance of the duality that then reveals the most high triality: that is Existence.

Accept and deny right and wrong (duality, opinions) and see neutrality (ultimate knowledge, existential and universal personification [God])

By calling what you present your 'opinion' i am being very generous and you should not so greedily demand recognition you have not done anything to deserve.

I have never demanded recognition, nor do I desire it. That is a false accusation.

Is there any way i can convince you to stop making up nonsense or will this horrible experience go on for a while more?

That depends on the civility and genuineness of your future responses.

[edit on 23-5-2007 by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal]

Time exists to us because we explained it in units.
Btw, it's 12:13 PM at my house...

Originally posted by Seekerof
Time exists to us because we explained it in units.
Btw, it's 12:13 PM at my house...

How is time measured? And do you know what is being measured? :

We didn't explain existential time in units, we explained and demonstrated the ability to define, the attempt to organize, and then a measure of relative movement(s). There is not a thing wrong with this of course, but this measurement of relative and local time does not negate the eternity and infinity of "uni-versal" space, and thus, time.

The way that most of us perceive time on Earth is that it must have a beginning and an end, so we have tried to expound this trapping in to our understanding of the universe, and that couldn't be farther from the truth. It is a timeless abyss and an immeasurable nothingness

[edit on 23-5-2007 by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal]

originally posted by StellarX

A closed system can be known to exist without it's internal dynamics understood. Since we do not have any closed systems, that I am aware of, to inspect we should not be drawing conclusions to start with.

Since you do not have any closed systems then how can you claim to know any thing about them and/or their existence?

I have provided unsubstantial substance ('no-thing'), you have provided unevidential and vacuous discernment, but discernment none the less.

Obviously not as that is even less well understood.

It is being explained in depth if you're willing to read calmly and patiently.

Calling 'change' consistency is illogical and false.

Incorrect, but your limited awareness is respected. Some thing that constantly changes is consistent. It is consistently changing.

There is nothing constant about something that is in/unconsistent and you can not make it so with word plays.

Words are here to play with. See what you can come up with, then prove it through mathematics and bring it to life.

You are correct. There is nothing constant about some thing and that is its constant consistency as its unconsistent constant; some thing is never constant, that is a consistency. Its eternal variance is its constant.

An unconstant unconsistency would mean that we have a constant consistency because unconsistency would not be constant. If we have an unconsistency that is not constant then it has stopped its unconsistency and thus become a measurable and a predictable, making it a consistency.

We are at a table: If we have 10 numbers on 10 cards that are blank on one side with the number on the other, numbering 0-9, and we say we are going to randomly pick them out, it would not be a randomization if the cards were revealed because we can predict what the last number will be once 8 have been turned over. Now, if the cards are placed face down we can still predict how many are left because we know how many there are, although we will not know what cards have been placed on the table; that is a hypothesis and/or a theory, a blind and useless guess. If we were to guess which card was being picked while they were placed face down and we wrote the number we thought the card was on the back of each card, there is a chance we could get them all correct and a chance that we could get them all wrong. The chance that we could get them all correct would be a compare and contrast to the total possibilities of out comes set against the chances that we could miss just one number in that combination each time.

Possible combinations are as follows:
0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9. 5,3,6,2,8,1,9,0,4,7
1,0,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9. 5,3,6,2,8,1,9,0,7,4
etc.

There are 1,000 different orderly combinations. We now know how many total combinations there are and what they may be. Our chance of missing just one number each time is, according to statistics, apparently 99.999%, thus the chance of guessing exactly what every one of the cards may be in any single turn is .001%. Now, any one that believes that these or any statistics like this are accurate is fooling them selves. We could very well try this 1,000 times and never guess all of the cards once, nor have all of the combinations come up, thus we had a 0% success rate, where as in an other test we could assess this routine 1,000 times and guess all the cards correctly on 5 different occasions, giving us a .005% success rate, proving that the only consistency of Existence is that it is consistently unconsistent and no one out come can ever be 100% predicted because there is no real such thing as a closed system. We could do this 2 times, 100 times, or an unlimited amount of times. We could guess it right every time and have the same combinations of numbers and out comes every time, and even then, it is still a constant consistency. Of course there is more behind this equation than meets the eye, (this equation is being presented of and through existence) and that is in the mind and other forces that are acting on the guesses and predictions of this situation. When that is understood... that which is the consistency of unconsistency because even where we think we have closed and limited systems we are only measuring and observing them through and of the unlmited system (existence/universe, thus we are the 'external force' that is supposed to not interact with a truly closed system)... and welcome to the world where once thought impossibilities are the realities of every day life.

The possibilities are consistently unconsistent. Potentiality is unlimited.

What exactly is your literary qualifications as you sure seem to think you are qualified to tell us how languages work or do not.

Qualifications and credentials are merely systematized clearances for work in a crumbling social ideology.

[edit on 24-5-2007 by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal]

Universe is something.

Can something be composed of nothing?

Something and nothing are not connected in any way. How could they be?

When said : everything come from nothing - than it imply that nothing exist. But it is a paradox - coz nothing have no existence...Whatever IS -is something.

When is said : universe is eternal - than nothing is said...nothing about the nature of universe.

Originally posted by cymro
Possibly, you're all making this too complicated. The point is that time is an ILLUSION that WE perceive. It is a perception that is necessary to us, in our mortal/physical state.

How is the evolution of the universe around us 'illusory'? Are we constructing a universe based on our 'believe' in time?

It is how we are "hardwired." "Who" (or what) did the wiring schematic, and how, and why, isn't something I intend to ponder here (although I do, often, elsewhere).

Based on what evidence do you make this claim? Who or what would design us to perceive something that did not exist for them as well?

Example: A frog literally does not see a fly until the fly moves. Quite literally. That is, an electroencephalogram (EEG) of a frog's brain shows that the fly (as far as the frog is concerned) DOES NOT EXIST until it moves.

But they fly is still there for other more evolved frogs or predators to eat. Why pretend that we notice something that does not exist based on this kind of logic?

The "why" of this makes no intuitive sense, as a frog's life would obviously be easier, and the frog would be be much more well-fed, if it could see the fly at all times.

Well then you should read a few books on evolution until you begin to understand that evolution is not about 'easing' the lives of end result of the process. Evolution is in general , as far as i/we can tell, directionless.

Think about that. We are not frogs, but we are certainly also not aware of the true state of the universe around us.

Ten thousand years ago 'we' were not aware of much but that did not and does not today mean that we can not perceive or understand those same phenomena based on observation or extrapolation. It certainly does not mean that this universe could not in the fullness of time be completely understood by those human minds who attempt to do so.

Not capable of being [fully] aware. Literally do not have the capacity.

Speak for yourself, please.

We can see flies before they move, so one must wonder about what it is that WE cannot perceive.

I would rather spend my time wondering about what we already can. There are many ways to waste time and thinking about those things we might not be able to perceive by technology or without is certainly one of them.

In addition to the true nature of time, that is. Think about that some more...

You sure should.

Nevertheless, as we increase our knowledge (on a species-wide scale), and begin to utilize instruments to examine the universe around us at a level that we cannot do with our own senses (that is, to "see" the fly before it moves), we are also beginning to realize that the universe is far stranger than we can perceive.

When you do not understand something it does for the most part seem perfectly 'strange' and when you find few if any answers but reveal even more 'strange' behaviour it might be time to consider the merit of the theories that are directing your observations.

It is a universe that changes [(only???) at the quantum level] BECAUSE we observe it. It is a universe that appears to not "notice" the passage of time that we perceive. (If you have not yet read "The End of Time," mentioned earlier, you really should; excellent!)

It does not 'only' change due to our observation as that would have ruled out the evolution of the universe. Human expectations and observations have been proven to affect our surroundings but that has very little to do with the universe at large.

It is good to be aware of this. It is impossible to truly understand it. It is also impossible not to try; this is another part of what makes us human.

Once again i would ask you to speak for yourself when you use the word 'impossible'. Some people take offense when others so liberally apply it to describe what they themselves have trouble grasping.

Another something to think about, related to the "passage" of time: Why do dreams always end, in perfect context, right at the moment you wake up?

Mine certainly do not.

Curiosity is the cure for Boredom;
There is no cure for Curiosity.

Good Evening -

Death might very well do that but i am no expert on Death. Curiosity is of very little use if it does not happen on a intellectual knowledge seeking level. Curiosity without direction or intent are unlikely to make you anything but a victim of systems of exploitation so i don't recommend it for those who are too busy with their regular average lives.

Stellar

Originally posted by blue bird
Universe is something.

And nothing. Sorry for losing my patience with you above, my apologies.

Can something be composed of nothing?

Yes. As is explained: No thing can not be measured, there fore it can not be verified. Some thing appears to be measurable and be wholly existing.

Example. The 'uni-verse' is a never ending and never beginning fabric of energy/space/time, thus it is immeasurable and we can never tangibly and optically prove its ubiquitous entirety through measurements.

Where as an apple can be measured and then considered to be a thing.

A thing is measurable and provable, no thing is not measurable, but is provable.

Nothing is immeasurable. We can not measure nothing, but we know it exists and doesn't exist.

Something and nothing are not connected in any way. How could they be?

Yes, they are. The 'uni-verse' is an immeasurable, thus a nothing. From it we measure things, this demonstrated the connection of nothing and some thing. If nothing and some thing were not connected then they would not exist in our "somethingness" reality... but they do, not only as words, but as concepts and existence, through existence and of existence.

When said : everything come from nothing - than it imply that nothing exist. But it is a paradox - coz nothing have no existence...Whatever IS -is something.

As explained above, every thing does come from no thing, and no thing from every thing. Whatever is, is some thing, and whatever is not, is nothing. An immeasurable can not be proved to be, thus it is not, but we live through and of it. Eternity is immeasurable, the uni-verse is eternal in both space and time.

Whatever IS, is nothing. Whatever is nothing, comes some thing.

No thing and some thing are Existentially symbiotic.

When is said : universe is eternal - than nothing is said...nothing about the nature of universe.

Absolutely. Nothing is eternal (space and time), and so, is the energetical make up of every thing. The energy is eternal (time and space), only transmutating from form to form and object to object.

[edit on 25-5-2007 by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal]

Universe could be temporally infinite ( infinite motion) - but how on earth does it constitute “nothingness“?

“Eternity“ seem to be the word from that “divine“ vocabulary“....

Originally posted by blue bird
Universe could be temporally infinite ( infinite motion) - but how on earth does it constitute “nothingness“?

There is no such thing as temporary infinitum, the fact that it is temporary would cause it to be finite. Infinity and eternity are always just that, infinite and eternal of and through both space and time. Infinity and eternity can never be temporary in any way because that is not their definitions, thus it would contradict their eternal characteristics. Every thing about it is eternal (through energy) and nothing is eternally nothing. We are both no thing and some thing having a conscious experience in this eternity.

Nothingness is two things as one. Nothing, non-existence, and also an immeasurable existence. What we exist in and of is an immeasurable abyss of nothing made up of measurable things. The illusional reality, our existence and non-existence. When we measure the nothingness, we create the some thingness

“Eternity“ seem to be the word from that “divine“ vocabulary“....

The divine vocabulary is our own and the vocabulary of our own the divine, because we are the divineness and the divineness us

[edit on 25-5-2007 by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal]

Originally posted by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal

Originally posted by blue bird
Universe could be temporally infinite ( infinite motion) - but how on earth does it constitute “nothingness“?

There is no such thing as temporary infinitum, the fact that it is temporary would cause it to be finite.
[edit on 25-5-2007 by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal]

I said TEMPORALLY - not TEMPORARY.

[edit on 25-5-2007 by blue bird]

Originally posted by blue bird
I said TEMPORALLY - not TEMPORARY.

My apologies, an honest mistake, occasionally they come up.

Time and space are tied together. To make the universe temporally infinite is to make its space infinite, there fore its existence and its energy.

Without space we can't have movement, without movement we can not measure 'time'. If time is eternal, then space is eternal.

The two can not be separated, all forces are interconnected.

The universe can not be infinitely temporal and finitely massive.

To say that the universe is of a finite expanse or mass, is to again claim that "nothing" is out side of the universe and acting as a barrier of some thing, we know that 'no thing' is 'non-existent' and thus there can not be a non-existent force acting as a barrier out side of existence (the universe) to cause it to be finite in space (a bubble, big bang, etc.). Space is infinite and so is 'time', ergo the mass of the 'uni-verse' is infinite and so is its expanse. It is not expanding, it is already an infinite expanse/abyss.

This also goes to show that there is no God that created the universe and is outside the universe in heaven. We are the God(s) and we are the Heaven(s)

[edit on 25-5-2007 by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal]

Indeed space and time are tight together.

Universe is finite but without boundaries - could posses infinite motion - like walking on the surface of the balloon... Universe is all there is - there is no outside..

Originally posted by blue bird
Universe is finite but without boundaries - could posses infinite motion - like walking on the surface of the balloon... Universe is all there is - there is no outside..

The uni-verse its self is not finite, the perceptional illusions may appear finite, such as a pencil or a ruler, but that is only to naked eye observation and thus naked eye appearance. Motion is indeed infinite. The uni-verse is an omnifinite perpetual motion machine.

The balloon as the uni-verse is limited. The uni-verse is not a balloon, it is not circular, it is immeasurable, it is not a circular immeasurableness, it is simply immeasurable. It is shapeless through its infinite energetical interconnection, yet appears to consist of shapes through our naked eye perception.

To call the uni-verse a balloon or even use it as an analogy is unsound and erroneous. We will call the universe an immeasurableness because that is what it is, not a balloon, although a balloon is part of the universe.

We will not go back to sacrificing truth for simplicity ever again, that equals chaos and diss orientation of divine beings, that which we are

[edit on 25-5-2007 by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal]

Mathematical Matrix Correction

For 3 numbers there are 6 possible orderly combinations, example: 123, 321, 213, 312, 132, 231. Equation is as follows.

2x3=6, and for 4 numbers we'd put a 4. 6x4=24, 24x5=120, 120x6=720, 720x7= 5,040, 5,040x8= 40,320, 40,320X9= 362,880, 362,880X10 =3,628,800

There are 3,628,800 (3+6+2+8+8+0+0=27, 2+7=9 ) different orderly combinations.

[edit on 25-5-2007 by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal]

With infinite universe - infinite mass -infinite inertia= NO MOTION POSSIBLE whatsoever!

Thus finite universe with no boundary - appearing lines that stretch infinitely are rapped around surface of balloon - no outside!


* and talking about topology of the universe, we don't just gaze at night sky - but we measure ...cosmic microwave background...