#1 Reason To Believe...

Originally posted by Essedarius

All the toys in the world mean nothing if, planning-wise, your resources are not connected. I have yet to see a CTer like you draw a coherent line of communication and command amidst the jumble of resources you just described.

Please show me though…I’d be happy to see how all these things worked in concert.

You should watch "who killed john oneil"

video.google.com...

Force yourself to watch ALL OF IT. You will understand the "connections".

CameronFox,

You might get more bees with honey, than degrading other members with comments like these.

Originally posted by CameronFox
Mirage.... Your entire post is garbage. *SNIP* Please...go reread what you posted....do some research and take some time editing (what) you posted.

Thank you.

Originally posted by CameronFox

(Here's) the difference between the passenger list and the flight manifest. I have personally posted a flight manifest in this forum in the past...If you want to believe that it was doctored..thats your perogitive.

[edit on 16-3-2007 by DontTreadOnMe]

Ever heard of it?

Here's the definition:

Wikipedia

my underlining, etc. for emphasis

The principle states that the explanation of any phenomenon should make as few assumptions as possible, eliminating, or "shaving off", those that make no difference in the observable predictions of the explanatory hypothesis or theory.

This is often paraphrased as "All things being equal, the simplest solution tends to be the best one." In other words, when multiple competing theories are equal in other respects, the principle recommends selecting the theory that introduces the fewest assumptions and postulates the fewest hypothetical entities

So, assuming neither theory about 9/11 had "proof", the simplest explanation should be selected - which would be that a few terrorists did it, and not that the government got thousands of people involved and managed to keep them quiet all these years.

Its interesting to see just how polarized these arguments are. Its one side against another, and neither side is willing to back down.

All the time and energy that has been put into researching the holes in the officla story, and all the time and energy that has been put into debunking such research, could have been used to moblize grass roots ogranizations to get bush and his cohorts out of office for any number of reasons outside of the 9/11 field.

Have you ever stopped to consider that maybe the reason the government hasnt released any more information is because they see the divide its created and have been using it to their advantage? After all, all the time you spend fighting each other acts as a distraction towards the reactionary agenda the administration has pushed onto the citizens of the US.

The events of 9/11 were an absoulte tradgety, no question there. but it happened 6 years ago. And in those 6 years, there have been 6 years of skepticism, that ultimately has yeilded no viable evidence to be taken toa court to get any legal action started. Maybe its time to put away the 9/11 movement and start focusing on the rammifications of the reactionary agenda beening shoved down the american peoples throats.

Sorry this is off topic, but these "debates" get absurd.

Originally posted by magicmushroom
The fact of the matter is that the believers cannot handle the truth, it upsets their sense of well being and trust in the Goverment and the system which they believe in.

Oh I want to play I want to play! Can I play?!

Okay...The fact of the matter is that CTers are frustrated fiction writers who cannot get attention from established literary agencies and have found 9/11 conspiracy forums as the only willing audience for their work.

Bush himself could declare on the news tomorrow that 9/11 was an inside job and they still would not believe it, they would not even believe it was the real president.

And Osama Bin Laden could declare on the news that he backed the 9/11 attack and CTers wouldn't believe it, they would not even believe it was the real Osama Bin Laden.

(I can prove mine, how about you?)

Its strange how these same people will readilly accept stories other atrocities past and present that have been committed by goverments around the world yet they cannot accept that it could happen in their own country.

Name ONE event in the history of DEATH that would approach this one in terms of scale and complexity.

Are these very same Americans forgetting that Japan was allowed to attack Pearl Harbour so the US could get into the war, how many thousands of Americans were killed in that event.

2,403.

You're not comparing the complexity and treachery of that event to the supposed "facts" of the 9/11 conspiracy are you?

Waco

Vietnam

Not one single person here is saying that our government is perfect. We are simply saying that our government IS NOT made up of the superhuman, omniscient individuals it would take to pull off 9/11.

Oddly enough, CTers argue against that concept consistently.

Connected you are quite correct, some of your fellow citizens are so far detached from reality that the Goverment could state that next week everyone has to paint their house bright yellow they would do it without question.

Neat fiction.

If you EVER sell this, I want royalties.

Originally posted by Realtruth
CameronFox,

You might get more bees with honey, than degrading other members with comments like these.

Originally posted by CameronFox
Mirage.... Your entire post is garbage. I dont have the time or patience to even respond to your idiotic statements that hold ZERO value. Please...go reread what you posted....do some research and take some time editing that mess you posted.

Thank you.

Originally posted by CameronFox

If you have any brains...you will understand the difference between the passenger list and the flight manifest. I have personally posted a flight manifest in this forum in the past...If you want to believe that it was doctored..thats your perogitive.

Well the first quote is attacking the post...not the poster.... As far as what I said to you... I Stand by it. You just keep on sticking to your YOU TUBE and other videos ....you have ZERO evidence to back up your claims...

BTW i watched WKJO about 10 months ago ... interesting movie...although he presumes many things in his movie...and connects the dots where there may not be.

Originally posted by Essedarius
2,403.

You're not comparing the complexity and treachery of that event to the supposed "facts" of the 9/11 conspiracy are you?

Well evidence is that the government let both Pearl harbor and 9/11 happen.

Originally posted by ULTIMA1

Originally posted by Essedarius
2,403.

You're not comparing the complexity and treachery of that event to the supposed "facts" of the 9/11 conspiracy are you?

Well evidence is that the government let both Pearl harbor and 9/11 happen.

see, this is a GREAT example of a conspiracy theory, or two even, that i could agree with. i cant claim i think the govt is totally innocent but as ultima said, it sure looks like they knew more than they let on and allowed it to happen.

only thing ultima and i may disagree on in this particular example, and im not trying to put words into ultimas mouth or anything, is that i believe its possible that the govt allowed it to happen through incompetance rather than knowing the details of when where and how and allowing it to take place anyway...even though i cant rule that out either.

HEY CF and Whiterabbit all for you:

Hey CF shanksville here is the first conspirator please debunk the major.
By the way I would appreciate a picture of some debris like engines and seats or whatever.
www.liveleak.com...
I don't want any witness I want real proof otherwise your stupid conspiracy does not add up.

Here is the Video of the meteorite CF Good luck with this one as well if you can come up with an explanation (scientific one) hats off.

After another ridiculous answer: ..and if you know ANYTHING about DNA...you don't need a lot of it to make a positive identification.

Well let me know how did they come up with that little to be compared to what???????.
I mean what DNA data bank (sperm donors??)

Funny as well that only one family member of the plane victims came out to question the Govt dream.

Start making up some answers especially about the meteorite.

Essed, H'm atrocities now let me think, err how about Rwanda, Polpot, the gassing of the kurds, ethnic cleansing in Bosnia hows that for you, I do have a very long list though. Nothing complex there though is there, its easy to round up and kill millions of people as in the case of Cambodia, 9/11 was like a scratch on the nose compared to that blood letting.

Who said the Goverment was behind 9/11, its those who control the Govement who did this.

There are people who would kill their own children if it meant serving the US and its interests. (same for most countries)

Yes I might believe a Film of the Terrorists claiming they did it, but thats just the point is it not that the best weapon of a terrorist is the media, so where are the great stories of the victorious terrorists no there is none is there, yet its what terrorists do best.

And all of a sudden now the 9/11 attack was complex, what! whats complex about aiming a plane at a great big building, whats complex about flying a large jet at 500mph a few feet of the ground into a building 40 feet high, childs play, anyone who's a few hours flying in a single engined light aircraft can do it. Thats the official story isn't it, that men with box cutters overpowered the passangers and crew with nothing better than throw away razors.

Please explain whats complex about that, you and your mates get together along with your box cutters, 3/4 to a plane it takes off you overpower the crew and passengers and fly the planes into buildings. Well I would say a couple of days planning at the most, nothing technical involved, no bombs, no guns, no techo stuff, no nothing really complex at all.

You see you and others have missed the stepping stones havent you, Ruby Ridge, Waco, Oklahoma, all the school shootings, the first towers bombing, all carefully orchestrated events to condition your mind to expect these events and also the escalation of such events.

As for the fiction of the yellow houses it was a social experiment where people were told to paint the fronts of their houses yellow, to see if the whole street would do it, eventually they all did bar one chap who would not, in the end his wife and kids left him because they felt left out because their house was not yellow and all the stick they were getting off their neighbours, in the end he caved in.

Do you understand the moral of that story?

Originally posted by piacenza
HEY CF and Whiterabbit all for you:

Hey CF shanksville here is the first conspirator please debunk the major.
By the way I would appreciate a picture of some debris like engines and seats or whatever.

Here you go













[edit on 16-3-2007 by sensfan]

Originally posted by Connected



I have read the NIST report 100's of times, Ive used it against you debunkers many times...

Plain and Simple.. YOU ARE LYING.

If you had read the NIST report "your minimum" of ONE hundered times, you would have to have read 1,000,000 pages. I will be very generous and say it only took you TWO minutes a page that is 2,000,000 minutes.

THis would have you reading the NIST report ALL DAY, ALL NIGHT, EVERYDAY since 2003. Without taking time out to sleep, eat, piss, post lies, or bathe.

Since the final NIST report wasn't released until Sept of 2005 ..YOU ARE LYING.

You do know that in the NIST report they say all of their writings were created from "pictures and videos" right? Also that they had no access to any of the material at ground zero right? They also say its all an estimation nothing solid, right??

Not true at all.

You have lost the micron of credibility you might have had.

Originally posted by sensfan

Originally posted by piacenza
HEY CF and Whiterabbit all for you:

Hey CF shanksville here is the first conspirator please debunk the major.
By the way I would appreciate a picture of some debris like engines and seats or whatever.

Here you go













[edit on 16-3-2007 by sensfan]

Wow now I am impressed honestly let me show you some more:


And instead those are real plane crashes

First one



Oh sorry no plane in there thats a fake those are real one.







now please get a life

ok, compare apples and oranges if you wish...you asked for pics of the crash, I showed you some debris dug up from the crater of the plan that went straight in at a very high rate of speed, which your pic obviously did not.

I bow to your expertise...those pics were fake, yep..ok. Thanks.

oh, and thanks, but I have a life...a great life in fact. Your insunuation that I don't have one, and therefor need to "get" one, is insulting and down right childish. I'm sure the mods will take notice, and they frown on personal attacks such as yours.

Have a great time on ATS, as long as it lasts anyway.

[edit on 16-3-2007 by sensfan]

Now you know the difference of a debris field.

The ones you have are of Pilots trying not to crash, but crashing anyway.

The ones from 9/11 are of the Pilot trying to crash into the ground at full speed.

Does it really surprize you that the results are different?

Originally posted by GwionX
Now you know the difference of a debris field.

The ones you have are of Pilots trying not to crash, but crashing anyway.

The ones from 9/11 are of the Pilot trying to crash into the ground at full speed.

Does it really surprize you that the results are different?

Exactly, but this is a fact that so many seem to want to ignore when they try to say that is not a plane crash location in Shanksville.

Originally posted by sensfan

Originally posted by GwionX
Now you know the difference of a debris field.

The ones you have are of Pilots trying not to crash, but crashing anyway.

The ones from 9/11 are of the Pilot trying to crash into the ground at full speed.

Does it really surprize you that the results are different?

Exactly, but this is a fact that so many seem to want to ignore when they try to say that is not a plane crash location in Shanksville.

Now guys from your immense knowledge explain the Meteorite:
youtube.com...

how did it reach those temperatures?

Originally posted by piacenza

Now guys from your immense knowledge explain the Meteorite:
youtube.com...

how did it reach those temperatures?

So... all your questions have been answered (besides the meteorite)

If we get you that answer... are you no longer a "truther" and have become a "Skeptic?"

[quote]Sensfan: "ok, compare apples and oranges if you wish...you asked for pics of the crash, I showed you some debris dug up from the crater of the plan that went straight in at a very high rate of speed, which your pic obviously did not."

Apples, oranges, who cares. mmmm appenges.

A plane crashes into a giant sandbox and scatters its fireball and lighter parts into the woods and suddenly it "disappears." Until you find photos of parts in the sand or in the woods. then they're planted, pre-buried, and here's more photos of crashes where there's parts!

Piacenza... it sounds like Spanish or maybe Italian for something...

[edit on 16-3-2007 by Caustic Logic]

[edit on 16-3-2007 by Caustic Logic]

As I stated in the "announce your stance on 9/11" thread, I am not convinced by the official story, but remain open minded about what happened that day. This includes remaining open to the possibility that the official story is true, and the possibility that it is not - I simply cannot prove either one, and cannot draw any definitive conclusions, because literally anything is possible in my opinion.

If, however, a conspiracy other than the official story did transpire, it would certainly be possible to keep it a secret. Please note that I am not saying that such a conspiracy was kept secret or that it would be a simple matter to conceal it, but rather, that it would not be impossible to keep it secret. The main reason for this is, simply, compartmentalization.

In the Northwoods operation that was briefly considered as a means of justifying an invasion of Cuba, compartmentalization would have prevented most people directly involved in the scheme from knowing what its real purpose was. NAVY personnel dispatched to retrieve the wreckage of the supposedly downed plane were to have believed that the plane was genuinely destroyed by a hostile force, and not by design, for instance.

My point is that it is very possible to conceal a conspiracy if many of the people taking part in it are unaware of its true purpose, and if those people are only aware of the elements of it with which they are directly involved (not the elements handled by others, who likewise, may be unaware of what everyone else is doing, or indeed, that anything else is happening at all.) It is my understanding that this is how compartmentalization works, and that through careful planning, it can be taken to extreme degrees of complexity, redundancy, and secrecy.

This is also why I am unconvinced by many of the popular conspiracy theories surrounding 9/11. If such a conspiracy did occur, I can think of a few fairly simple scenarios that would lend themselves much more to that kind of compartmentalization and secrecy than things like the controlled demolition theory, the remote controlled plane theory, the missile theory, etc. That isn't to say that those theories are wrong or in error necessarily, but simply that, in my opinion, they would lend themselves less to compartmentalization than simpler schemes. That doesn't mean they didn't happen - I'm just saying they wouldn't have to have happened for there to have been a government-led (or elements-within-the-government-led) conspiracy that day.

Then again, it's also possible that the official story is simply true. I'm just trying to make the case that compartmentalization can go a long way if implemented well. I try to keep an open mind regardless. In my mind, as I said, literally anything is possible. I remain suspicious and concerned, but ultimately unconvinced either way.