757 Plane Did Not Hit Pentagon - Hard Visible Proof!

Are you not reading my credentials and understand my words. I have no investigation experience and you even quoted me on it.

I don't claim to be an expert and don't want to be, that is why I am asking questions.

Now as for John Lear's credentials.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

John Lear Quote:

OK. Please know this. I have been a pilot for almost 50 years. No airman has more FAA certificates than I do. I had over 19,000 hours when I retired in 2001, 16,000 in large jets. I have participated in many crash investigations.
I have built airplanes, I have flown them, I have instructed in them, I have raced them and I have crashed them. The hypothesis that the wings and tail and fuel from a Boeing 757 disintegrated from the high kinectic energy of impact is pure, unadulterated, unmitigated B.S.

Tread lightly when you make counterclaims against John Lear. If I even remotely had a few years of knowledge that John has, I would be listening carefully to what he had to say.

Originally posted by darkbluesky

Originally posted by Realtruth
darkbluesky,

Again I know nothing of plane parts, but I know John Lear does and has investigated many plane crashes.

Im curious, how do you come by the knowledge that John Lear has investigated many airplane crashes? Accorording to John himself, he is a pilot not an investigator.

Darkbluesky how many crashes have you actually investigated?

None. And you?

[edit on 10-4-2007 by Realtruth]

Originally posted by Zaphod58
IF that part was from the main fan disk, then yes it could be the same engine.

Don't be silly. There is no 'main' fan disk on the RB-211. There is only one fan. The fan section is huge as are the blades.

Those fan blades are very easily destroyed, or even moved around on the hub. If you stand in front of an engine as it's slowly spinning down the blades slide around on the hub, because they're put on loosely to allow for heat expansion.

One thing you and Darkbluesky are going to have to do, if you want to be taken seriously, is to quit refering to compressor and turbine blades as fan blades. The RB-211 has a single stage fan and it is huge. That disk you have a photograph of is from the compressor section and could not possibly be from the 'main fan disk' whatever the heck you think that is. Thanks.

What is this? Anyone?




And this?




How about this? I think I see something like a Jet engine of some sort.




Wow! look at what this BGM-109 Tomahawk can do.




I am also curious how the 757 which wings, tail, fuselage disitegrated on impact and most of the plane, but it made it through more than 9 feet of steel re-enforced concrete to end up in almost a perfectly straight line. And then the planes nose cone punched that perfect little hole?

Originally posted by johnlear A wheel? A wheel? Are you kidding? Out of 250,000 pounds of airplane allegedly inside the Pentagon you are going to show me a wheel?

Ahem, Which picture do you think looks like a wheel? I didn't post any pictures of wheels.

Originally posted by johnlearOne thing you and Darkbluesky are going to have to do, if you want to be taken seriously, is to quit refering to compressor and turbine blades as fan blades. The RB-211 has a single stage fan and it is huge. That disk you have a photograph of is from the compressor section and could not possibly be from the 'main fan disk' whatever the heck you think that is. Thanks.

John, A couple of things you need to do if you want to be taken seriously:

1. Be able to discriminate between an engine component and a "wheel".

2. Stop telling people the moon has an atmosphere, was mined by aliens with colosal equipment, and possesses a "soul catcher".

Your record as an aviator and world traveller are impressive. You discredit your reputation by selling these cheap fantastic notions to the gullible.

Thanks for your input.

Originally posted by Realtruth
I am also curious how the 757 which wings, tail, fuselage disitegrated on impact and most of the plane, but it made it through more than 9 feet of steel re-enforced concrete to end up in almost a perfectly straight line. And then the planes nose cone punched that perfect little hole?

Maybe this is was made by one of darkblueskys 'main fan disks'? After all it is round, and it did make it through 9 feet of steel re-inforced concrete. But don't forget, there were 2 engines on the Boeing 757. Where did the other engine come out?

Originally posted by johnlear
One thing you and Darkbluesky are going to have to do, if you want to be taken seriously, is to quit refering to compressor and turbine blades as fan blades. The RB-211 has a single stage fan and it is huge. That disk you have a photograph of is from the compressor section and could not possibly be from the 'main fan disk' whatever the heck you think that is. Thanks.

So, all those times I saw them changing fan blades I was hallucinating? And all those times I heard the blades clanking as it was slowly spinning, and they were shifting I was imagining it? Thanks for clearing that up for me!

I'd hardly call the RB211 "huge" in any way. The entire engine diameter of the RB211 is 6 feet.

Originally posted by johnlear
Maybe this is was made by one of darkblueskys 'main fan disks'?

I would thank you to stop incorrectly attributing statements to me. I did refer earlier to "fan" blades on the compressor rotor disk whereas I should have stated compressor blades, but someone else was talking about "main fan disks".

And anyone who cannot see the curved section of aircraft cockpit structure in that picture, just doesn't want to see it, and never will. However they will continue to see conspiracies and betrayal behind very tree.

I just noties nothing is burnt thats laying on the ground!
I thought the plain vaporised.

One thing you guys might want to do, if you want to be taken seriously, is some basic research on the construction of the Pentagon. It was ONE steel reinforced concrete wall, the rest of which were ordinary walls. The only wall that was reinforced was the outer wall, where it would be possible to place a truck bomb almost against the building. The inner courtyard was considered an interior wall, with limited or no vehicle access, so wasn't reinforced. The interior walls were simply standard drywall and unreinforced concrete.

The Pentagon is in the midst of a major renovation program (see “The Pentagon Project,” Civil Engineering, June 2001), and the work is phased in five “wedges.” Each wedge is centered on a building vertex and consists of the portion of the building between the midpoint of adjacent sides. Structurally, the renovation is not major; the most significant changes are the addition of new elevators, stairs, escalators, and mechanical equipment rooms. Additionally, the exterior walls and windows are being upgraded to provide a measure of resistance to external blasts. The renovation of Wedge 1 was essentially complete at the time of the September 11 attack.

www.pubs.asce.org...

As for the Tomahawk, the parts of the engine found at the Pentagon are bigger in diameter than the entire diameter of the Tomahawk missile itself. There's no way those parts came from the tiny jet engine of a Tomahawk.

Originally posted by Zaphod58

So, all those times I saw them changing fan blades I was hallucinating? And all those times I heard the blades clanking as it was slowly spinning, and they were shifting I was imagining it? Thanks for clearing that up for me!

This is what Zaphod58 said:

IF that part was from the main fan disk, then yes it could be the same engine. Those fan blades are very easily destroyed, or even moved around on the hub. If you stand in front of an engine as it's slowly spinning down the blades slide around on the hub, because they're put on loosely to allow for heat expansion.

"From the main fan disk", Zaphod58? How many fan disks do you think there are on a Rolls Royce RB-211?

"Fan blades are easily destroyed", Zaphod58? Are you kidding? The fan section is the engines first line of defense. Easily destroyed my foot! Those blades have to take projectiles fired at over 400 mph while running at full thrust!

I'd hardly call the RB211 "huge" in any way. The entire engine diameter of the RB211 is 6 feet.

The fan is huge compared to the disc you were claiming it was attached to. As a matter of fact what you said was, "If that part was from the main fan disk", now, assuming you meant the 'only' fan disk how could those little itty bitty holes on the end of that disk hold a huge fan blade? Thanks.

Zaphod58,

I can't speak much for knowledge on planes, but one thing I have spent most of my adult life in is commercial and industrial construction. I have been a general contractor for over 20 years and have been licensed for the same number of years. I know almost every government spec, in regards to construction for there facilities, and have been involved with government installations, both repair and new construction.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
One thing you guys might want to do, if you want to be taken seriously, is some basic research on the construction of the Pentagon. It was ONE steel reinforced concrete wall, the rest of which were ordinary walls. The only wall that was reinforced was the outer wall, where it would be possible to place a truck bomb almost against the building. The inner courtyard was considered an interior wall, with limited or no vehicle access, so wasn't reinforced. The interior walls were simply standard drywall and unreinforced concrete.

One reinforced steel wall the rest standard walls? It don't work that way Charlie! The government doesn't just reinforce one wall, especially the Pentagon.

Do you have any idea what you are talking about? No, because I can tell that because you would have noticed clearly the # 4 to 5 rebar the US government specs in exterior wall applications.

Do you see the bent rebar I have circled red, multiple tied steel Rebar.

FYI on Rebar

www.sizes.com...





[edit on 10-4-2007 by Realtruth]

Originally posted by darkbluesky
And anyone who cannot see the curved section of aircraft cockpit structure in that picture, just doesn't want to see it, and never will. However they will continue to see conspiracies and betrayal behind very tree.

Problem is a 757 cockpit would have been completley destroyed and not made it through all the walls and collums. In case you do not know the nose of the plane is very fragile composte and the cockpit is just aluminum.

Originally posted by johnlear
"Fan blades are easily destroyed", Zaphod58? Are you kidding? The fan section is the engines first line of defense. Easily destroyed my foot! Those blades have to take projectiles fired at over 400 mph while running at full thrust!

Then please tell me why it is that a ROCK can cause an engine to FOD out. Or how a ROCK can bend a fan blade so badly that you have to replace the entire blade. If engines weren't relatively fragile, why do you see sailors on carriers doing FOD walks before air ops daily. Or sweepers constantly sweeping flightlines on USAF bases for rocks, and bits of metal that can destroy an engine.

They're not going to reinforce one wall? Then why do the engineers that were involved in the Pentagon renovation talk about ONLY the exterior wall and window being reinforced during the renovation? If they were going to reinforce EVERY WALL in the building they'd have to tear it down and rebuild the whole building essentially. Why would they reinforce the interior walls? The outer wall was supposed to be able to withstand a truck bomb going off almost touching the wall, so what would be the point of reinforcing the interior walls? And even if they DID reinforce the inner courtyard, that's still only TWO walls you're talking about.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
They're not going to reinforce one wall? Then why do the engineers that were involved in the Pentagon renovation talk about ONLY the exterior wall and window being reinforced during the renovation? If they were going to reinforce EVERY WALL in the building they'd have to tear it down and rebuild the whole building essentially. Why would they reinforce the interior walls? The outer wall was supposed to be able to withstand a truck bomb going off almost touching the wall, so what would be the point of reinforcing the interior walls? And even if they DID reinforce the inner courtyard, that's still only TWO walls you're talking about.

I still want to know how an aluminum airframe punched through the walls and collums, since the landing gear were supposed the be up and protected by kevlar doors, they should not have been able to get that far away from the airframe to cause the damage to the all the walls and collums.

[edit on 10-4-2007 by ULTIMA1]

Did I post a picture and show you steel reinforcement protruding from the third building wall? Yep.

I think you are getting confused here because of the other buildings on the inside or interior. Each building is a separate entity containing exterior walls and interior walls. Each building must conform to the same Government specifications, which always exceeds OHSA standards.

When they talk of interior walls they are talking about walls passed the brick/poured, concrete, tied rebar exterior wall. Interior walls are just a facade, so they will not contain any reinforcement rebar, but the exterior wall directly behind the interior will always contain rebar for structural integrity.

I have to chuckle at this here, some media and military coined term "to be able to withstand a truck bomb going off"?

You see government installations that are made of brick/mortar/concrete have rebar or steel reinforcement in them for the past 75 years plus, not just for protection, but mainly for structural integrity due to load bearing specs.

Depending on the type of building and the number of stories, load-bearing walls are gauged to the appropriate thickness to carry the weight above it. Without doing so, it is possible that an outer wall could become unstable if the load exceeds the strength of the material used, potentially leading to the collapse of the structure. This is why steel reinforcement is used.

I have know idea why any engineer, architect, or whoever would say anything about reinforcing a interior wall, unless they had no idea what they were talking about.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
They're not going to reinforce one wall? Then why do the engineers that were involved in the Pentagon renovation talk about ONLY the exterior wall and window being reinforced during the renovation? If they were going to reinforce EVERY WALL in the building they'd have to tear it down and rebuild the whole building essentially. Why would they reinforce the interior walls? The outer wall was supposed to be able to withstand a truck bomb going off almost touching the wall, so what would be the point of reinforcing the interior walls? And even if they DID reinforce the inner courtyard, that's still only TWO walls you're talking about.

Originally posted by Zaphod58

Then please tell me why it is that a ROCK can cause an engine to FOD out. Or how a ROCK can bend a fan blade so badly that you have to replace the entire blade. If engines weren't relatively fragile, why do you see sailors on carriers doing FOD walks before air ops daily. Or sweepers constantly sweeping flightlines on USAF bases for rocks, and bits of metal that can destroy an engine.

Zaphod58 please accept my apologies for being rude. I've had a nap now and I feel much better, thank you.

I know that you probably already know that a jet engine is composed of basically 2 sections, the compressor and the turbine sections. The compressor section compresses the air into which the fuel is injected and ignited and the turbine section further compresses it and ejects it out the back for thrust.

High bypass engines such as the RB-211 add an additional stage to the front which they call a high bypass fan and is comprised on just one stage, the fan. This is what they call a 3 spool engine.

The turbine and to some extent the compresser section 'drive' the fan section, the blades of which are so enormous (in comparison to the compressor and turbine sections) that at very high speeds that 'fan' is actually delivering more than 70 or 80% of the thrust of the entire engine. The reason it can do that is because the fan blades are so much longer than the diameter of the compressor or the turbine blades and the air that it produces 'bypasses' the rest of the engine creating most of the thrust.

FOD (foreign object damage) is a serious problem as you pointed out but usually not to the fan or first stages of the compressor section because the blades ar usually large and they suffer little nicks and dings as the object passes through.

Where the damage occurs is normally in the aft stages of the compressor section and turbine section where the blades are much smaller and thus more suscestible to damage.

I was unfairly taking advantage of you and Darkblueskys misuse of standard jet engine nomenclature, calling compressor blades, 'fan blades' and using 'main fan disc' to describe a compressor disc. Please accept my apology.

John a quick question for you, if the alleged 757 hit the Pentagon and the wings sheared off and disintegrated, fuel vaporized outside and inside part of the first ring, What in the heck are the burn marks outside the exterior of the 3rd ring of the Pentagon?

Does the fuselage carry any fuel? I can't understand why there would be any mark there because there is none on the 2nd ring, but only outside the 3rd?

So I guess the jet fuel from the plane skipped the 2nd ring and somehow splashed the outside of the 3rd exterior ring?

Originally posted by darkbluesky

John, A couple of things you need to do if you want to be taken seriously:

1. Be able to discriminate between an engine component and a "wheel".

Point well taken. I should have taken more time to identify that wheel shaped disc as a component to an engine instead of a 'wheel' which the airplane rolls along the ground on. Thanks for bringing that to my attention.

2. Stop telling people the moon has an atmosphere

I am sure that you are suggesting this because you think it makes me look foolish as in fact it does. But the truth is that that moon DOES have a breathable atmosphere (although not quite as thick as earths) and I will be vindicated; probably not in my lifetime because I am going to be 65 in December. But certainly within the next 100 years.

was mined by aliens with colosal equipment

The fact is that I didn't say 'it was mined by aliens with colossal equipment'. I am saying that it is being mined at this time, with colossal equipment by us, humans; humans from earth. People that NASA puts there.

Now, there are aliens there. 2 types that I know of. The grays and the people that look just like us but are much more advanced. But I don't think either one of them are doing any mining. But I could be wrong.

and possesses a "soul catcher".

I am pretty sure that the 6 mile high tower in the middle of the Sinus Medii, close to Mosting A is a 'soul catcher'. I believe that when we die our souls are instantly (or at least very quickly) sent to a new born baby. Somewhere during that process, some, or all of the souls are retrieved by the 'soul catcher' (otherwise known as 'The Big Soul Machine On The Moon'), and maybe sorted and/or categorized and/or graded and sent on their journey, either back to earth or some other planet.

If you have a problem with this please feel free to tune me out.

Your record as an aviator and world traveller are impressive. You discredit your reputation by selling these cheap fantastic notions to the gullible.

My 'cheap, fantastic notions' may, in fact, discredit my reputation. But they are not for sale. I have written no book. Produced no CD or DVD (yet). However last year and this year I plan to make several talks for which I charge a modest fee. This modest fee helps me keep my gold mine in operation. But my 'fantastic notions', as cheap as they are, are not for sale.

The damage to my reputation doesn't bother me as I don't socialize all that much, in fact at all.

The only time I ever go out is to go to dinner at Olive Garden once or twice a year. So far the maitre d has not said, "Oh, you're the guy that thinks our souls go to the tower on the moon. I'm very sorry but we don't serve your kind here."

When I am not doing 'honey do' projects around this friggin' house I am up at the mine where the nearest person is 46 miles away. The turkey buzzards and rabbits just think I'm nuts. They don't know anything about the soul catcher though and I don't plan to tell them.

Originally posted by johnlearWhen I am not doing 'honey do' projects around this friggin' house I am up at the mine where the nearest person is 46 miles away. The turkey buzzards and rabbits just think I'm nuts. They don't know anything about the soul catcher though and I don't plan to tell them.

Sounds good John. Good luck in the mine. I'm sure we'll pick up on this topic some other time.