Dulce Underground Base Alien War Question

Originally posted by johnlear
Let me take the reference to 'dragons' first.

Evasion, as usual ...

Dragons, although portayed often as myths were real entities. Some lived in the sea and lakes and other bodies of water; some lived on land; Chinese and Korean dragons flew or floated through the air. Dragons predate recorded history but are referenced in some fashion in nearly all early writings.

Now this (non-)discussion is getting surreal! Is there any myth or legend, which you believe is not real??

If you Google 'dragons' there are over two and a half million references

If you Google 'Dulce Underground Alien Base' there are only 62,800 references.

Yeah. Quoting Google hit counts as relevant evidence. I can't believe that someone tries to do this in a discussion, and expects not being laughed out of the room!

So what I am pointing out is if you are having trouble with the fact that dragons were real entities and roamed the earth well before and probably sometime after the beginning of recorded history then you are certainly not going to be able to grasp the existence of the Joint US/ALIEN Underground Base known as Dulce.

...

So it is with the Joint US/Alien Underground Base of Dulce. You lack the buiding blocks of knowledge and acquired information to even be able to relate to this concept much less understand it.

I can't force you to acquire knowledge. This is something that you have to want to do on your own. And until you do, your grasp of a Joint US/Alien Underground Base in Dulce, NM will be limited to any and all evidence which can be manufactured and/or faked or alien beyond your present understanding.

I can't believe you pulled this stunt, Mr. Lear ! You are effectively saying that I (and many others) are all way too stupid to understand the concept of a secret US/alien underground base. That we are mere infants compared to your heights of enlightenment. And this from someone who is unable to understand simple Newtonian mechanics. Wow !

Mr. Lear, saying that you suffer from severe delusions of grandeur would be an understatement. You apparently regard yourself as a genius, who is exempt from questioning by mere mortals like me, because You know The Truth, which needs no further evidence.

Anyway, I see that you are unable to provide any actual evidence, let alone proof, of a secret base near Dulce, NM. And since your state of mind apparently doesn't allow you to even consider that such evidence is lacking, I'll leave it at that and will no longer ask for evidence. There is none, except in your head.

I'm not a psychologist, but I've read enough scientific articles about delusions to know that rational discussions with such people are all but impossible. Sad . And by the way, Mr. Lear, I don't blame you. I don't call you a "liar". In fact, I even feel a bit sorry for you ... but not too much, because you obviously enjoy your situation .

Anyway, that's all I have to say about it. I only wonder if I get a "warning" from the mods for it .

Regards
yf

Originally posted by Mike_A
Ok so why can’t he post the evidence for those who have this supposed requisite of UFO/alien/etc understanding

Because you can't "post" evidence which only exists inside your head.

and how do you/does he know I am not one of them?

In fact, looking at the somewhat confused statements of the "enlightened one" , I am quite happy not to be "one of them"

Regards
yf

Originally posted by Mike_A
Ok so why can’t he post the evidence for those who have this supposed requisite of UFO/alien/etc understanding and how do you/does he know I am not one of them?

I'm not sure. what data has been provided thus far?

Originally posted by undo
what data has been provided thus far?

None, that's the point. Having gone through John’s forum and read his claims I’ve not seen any evidence or hard data come up at all.

Have you read the Dulce Papers?

If i'm not mistaken, those were written and supplemented with drawings by John Lear?

Perhaps your idea of nothing and my idea of nothing, are different?

Originally posted by yfxxx
I can't believe you pulled this stunt, Mr. Lear

! You are effectively saying that I (and many others) are all way too stupid to understand the concept of a secret US/alien underground base. That we are mere infants compared to your heights of enlightenment. And this from someone who is unable to understand simple Newtonian mechanics. Wow

!

And you are effectively twisting his words. He didn't say you had to be an absolute genius to figure these things out. He said you have to do the research yourself in order to come to the same conclusion. He never claimed he was a genius and he has always made note he doesn't have a huge scientific background.
There's a difference between being a genius and aquiring knowledge through research/experience. You seem to have gotten those mixed up.

You have no bases for your arguments as you havent done the research, or experienced what Mr. Lear has. You're more than welcome to disagree, just for the hell of it? ...But don't start calling Mr. Lear "delusional" just because you're too narrow minded to look at things from more than 1 angle.

...really makes you stand out as the only delusional one here.

[edit on 28/3/07 by Navieko]

Originally posted by ultralo1

Originally posted by johnlear

How about an alien tool that was rectangular with smooth rounded edges about 1 inch wide by 2 inches long and about 1/2" thick? Sapphire in color and so smooth it is slippery and difficult to hold on to. It looks like a large precious stone and would definately rival anything that could be bought at the most prestigious jewelry boutiques on New York's Fifth Avenue. Would you buy this as an alien tool?

I can have it tested.

I saw this for 3 pages and had to reply. It would be nice to have that thing but methinks John had the smartass button on for a bit to prove his point about evidence.

The thing is when asking for evidence. Any and all evidence you're going to get via the internet can be fabricated in some way. For 100% irrefutable evidence people are going to have to get offa their arses and go looking for themelves. Photos can be faked, as can videos, testimony and the like. I hate to play the repeater but if people are so in the need for hard irrefutable evidence, they need to go out and get it, not sit behind a computer and wait for a photo just so they can say it's fake or whatnot. If people believe what John's saying that's fine. If they don't that's fine as well. The point is, if someone already has the preconception that something is fallacy then theres no ammount of evidence that will change their minds. That is true for the other side of the coin as well if you believe insomething whole heartedly (take religion for example) then no ammount of evidence to the contrary will change that persons mind. As John said earlier in his post, he's in this for his own knowledge. He'll tell you all about it but for those who want hard irrefutable evidence. It just ain't gonna happen on the internet.[/rant]

Undo, the Dulce papers aren’t evidence in themselves; there’s nothing that can be verified that points to the existence of this base.


Shaun, evidence can always be fabricated in most circumstances if you go through enough trouble but that is no excuse not to provide any. Even on the internet John could post video testimonials including names, dates etc; he could post a scan of written testimonials with signatures, names and general contact information for it to be verified. He could provide a video of pictures including the negatives along with a clearer scan, he could provide the location of key areas at Dulce which people could check out either in person or via contacts or even just Google earth etc. There’s plenty he, and anyone, could do to back up his assertions. He’s never going to prove it like this but that isn’t the point, the point is to provide enough to make a compelling case.

Of course there may also be many people reading this who would be willing and able to travel to Dulce or go see John to see this evidence but who would otherwise not be able to go on a wild goose chase just on the off chance of finding something.


If you’re happy with either believing it or not then good for you but I’m not and neither are many other people. If he’s lying then a lot of people are wasting a lot of time but if he’s telling the truth then surely the fate of the world is at stake isn’t it? That’s enough reason to establish at least whether he has any case to begin with.

Being sceptical or questioning is not synonymous with being close minded.

He'll tell you all about it but for those who want hard irrefutable evidence. It just ain't gonna happen on the internet.[/rant]

I for one would love to just HEAR more about such things from John, I happen to believe (for what its worth) that what he is saying is true. I do not seek irrefutable hard evidence as thats not necessary.

If I could devote the time required to do a bit of digging around myself I really would love to do it, but for now I am happy to be an interested someone looking in from the outside.

Originally posted by Mike_A
If he’s lying then a lot of people are wasting a lot of time

Mike_A thanks for your post. You input is always appreciated.

You failed to indicate or present what you think I am 'lying' about.

Several posters here, including you, have used the word 'lying' or 'liar' in reference to myself and the Dulce story. For instance in your quote above "..if he's lying...". You always have the option of calling into question my statements or any statements for that matter.

My question is that what are you accusing me of lying about?

I have told my story quite clearly and put the sequence of events out for all to see.

So specifically, which events, in those sequence of events, am I lying about?

Am I lying about the meeting in Crestone with Tom Adams where he originally gave me the piece of paper with the mans name in Henderson on it?

Am I lying about meeting that same man in Las Vegas?

Am I lying about the man giving me the pencil drawings that Thomas Costello allegedly gave him?

Am I lying about copying them in pen and ink?

Am I lying about copying the text that was allegedly smuggled out of Dulce and then typing it on my IBM computer?

Am I lying about letting Val Valerian but my drawings and Dulce text in Matrix 1?

Am I lying about my midnight ride with Gabe Valdez or my stay with Paul Bennewitz.

Am I lying about my dinner with Linda Howe and Col. Ernie Edwards?

Please state which specific incident in the sequence of events that you think is a lie.

Either that or please refrain from using the word 'lie' in reference to my statements on the Dulce story.

It is against T&C policy to call someone a liar without specifics or evidence.

Your cooperation and understanding would be greatly appreciated.

Originally posted by johnlear

Dr. Bennewitz gave me the x-ray of Myrna Hansen's head showing the the chip and the photos he had taken of the dome shaped saucers operating from the MWSA. 2 other government employees confirmed the existence of Dulce one of whom told me he knew it as Section D.

Ok John time to show some evidence. With regards to your above statement:

1. Where is this X-Ray of Myrna Hansens head?
   
2. Where are the photos of the dome shaped saucers?
   
3. Who are the two government employees? What departments do they work for?
   

If you can provide the above then I will eat my hat.

sip

Where did I accuse you of lying John? I said if you were then a lot of people are wasting their time but I also said that if you are telling the truth then the implications would be enormous; my point being that both cases, regardless of which is correct, present very good reason for evidence to be produced.

I think Tim’s post on logical fallacies should be referenced here, particularly the “straw man” bit.

Originally posted by Mike_A
Where did I accuse you of lying John? I said if you were then a lot of people are wasting their time but I also said that if you are telling the truth then the implications would be enormous; my point being that both cases, regardless of which is correct, present very good reason for evidence to be produced.

I think Tim’s post on logical fallacies should be referenced here, particularly the “straw man” bit.

My question still stands Mike_A. "If" I am lying about what? Please be specific and use my previous post as a guide.

Thanks for your response and your continued input. I believe that you are an honest person and that you will be more forthcoming in your next post.

You don’t seem to have understood John, I am not claiming that you are lying about anything I am simply presenting the possibility that you could be (I’m not being specific about what, it’s a hypothetical) and pointing out that if you were then many people have made wasted efforts because of it. However at the same time if you are telling the truth then the implications are massive. Both possibilities present very good reason for requiring evidence before making ones mind up either way on the subject.

Again for the record I am not saying nor have I said that you have lied about anything.


Moving back to the point you’ve been asked to provide any evidence you can on this subject by myself and have been given specific examples by Sip, yfxxx and if your post about the alien artefact wasn’t sarcasm then by ultralo1 as well. Can you provide any?

Originally posted by johnlear
Let me take the reference to 'dragons' first. Dragons, although portayed often as myths were real entities. Some lived in the sea and lakes and other bodies of water; some lived on land; Chinese and Korean dragons flew or floated through the air. Dragons predate recorded history but are referenced in some fashion in nearly all early writings.

If you Google 'dragons' there are over two and a half million references

If you Google 'Dulce Underground Alien Base' there are only 62,800 references.

What's your point, John?

Just becuase you can find it on Google doesn't prove it's real! Star Wars is a Science Fiction movie. We know George Lucas's Star Wars isn't real, yet if you Google Star Wars, you will get 146'000'000 hits on Google. (I just tried it, so I know the number is right).

Tim

Originally posted by sip

Originally posted by johnlear

Dr. Bennewitz gave me the x-ray of Myrna Hansen's head showing the the chip and the photos he had taken of the dome shaped saucers operating from the MWSA. 2 other government employees confirmed the existence of Dulce one of whom told me he knew it as Section D.

Ok John time to show some evidence. With regards to your above statement:

1. Where is this X-Ray of Myrna Hansens head?
   
2. Where are the photos of the dome shaped saucers?
   
3. Who are the two government employees? What departments do they work for?
   

Thank you, sip, good catch .

So, Mr. Lear, you clearly said you have this evidence. So please scan the X-Ray and saucer photos, and post them here; and identify the government office, where the alleged employees worked. No excuses, no further straw men. Just do it. If you can't, you will be in a really tight corner.

If you can provide the above then I will eat my hat.

And if it actually looks genuine, I'll hold that and add my keyboard .

Regards
yf

Originally posted by Mike_A
You don’t seem to have understood John, I am not claiming that you are lying about anything I am simply presenting the possibility that you could be (I’m not being specific about what, it’s a hypothetical) and pointing out that if you were then many people have made wasted efforts because of it.

Thanks again for your input Mike_A and I believe I understand. Since you will not specify the alleged lie I assume its my age. I say again for the record I am 64 and on December 4th of this year I will be 65.

If I misunderstood what it actually is that I 'might' lying about then I respectfully request that you specifiy what I "might" be hypothetically lying about. There is a list of possibilities in my thread above. Wishing you all the best.

John,

Im just going to jump on this 'lying' thing and tell you that most people tend to think that You're responsible for the Dulce story here, and they also figure that since they feel you're responsible, that you owe them proof to back your claims up.

now, im not entirely sure if you're the origin of Dulce's base story, hence my standpoint in this thread over the last few pages. Aside from which, i dont think people will believe you unless you pay for airfare, drive em over and dig the place up for em, and then they'll still doubt you.

but yeah, i think thats where the idea of you lying comes from etc..

cheers

Originally posted by shadow fax

but yeah, i think thats where the idea of you lying comes from etc..

cheers

Thanks shadow fax and I think you may be correct. What I am trying to find out is WHICH PART do they think I made up:

Am I lying about meeting Tom Adams in Crestone?

And lying that Tom handed me the note from the guy in Henderson?

And that Tom asked me to investigate it.

Am I lying about meeting that same man in Las Vegas?

Am I lying about the man giving me the pencil drawings that Thomas Costello allegedly gave him?

Am I lying about copying them in pen and ink?

Am I lying about copying the text that was allegedly smuggled out of Dulce and then typing it on my IBM computer?

Am I lying about letting Val Valerian but my drawings and Dulce text in Matrix 1?

Am I lying about my midnight ride with Gabe Valdez or my stay with Paul Bennewitz.

Am I lying about my dinner with Linda Howe and Col. Ernie Edwards?

I can't seem to get anybody to address this core issue. But thanks for your input and help.

Originally posted by shadow fax
John,

Im just going to jump on this 'lying' thing and tell you that most people tend to think that You're responsible for the Dulce story here, and they also figure that since they feel you're responsible, that you owe them proof to back your claims up.

He does owe the ATS community proof of these "claims". After admitting he HAS proof why withhold it from the community?
If I logged on here and claimed to know about this DUMB with alien agenda attached do you think anyone would believe me without proof?

This is not a personal attack on John, I just want to find the truth.