Scrutiny of Anti-Freemasons

Why is it every mason thread I read here all the same, seriously we could delete 90% of the posts in this forum and not lose one tiny bit of info.

The usual pattern is:
1. New person to the site says something bad against masonry
2. A mason defends his glorified frat
3. The mason call to arms occurs and like a shark feeding frenzy they all come to attack this new person.
4. A member who has seen this pack attack will read the same posts and comments from said masons that they have written in every other thread and finally have enough and try to deflect some of the flaming this new member is now copping from the mason hordes
5. The entire thing goes round in circles for about 3 -4 pages until the non masons give up wished they never had said anything.
6. Another new member learns to stay away from the Secret Societies forum.

I'd go further and suggest that the OP was designed to allow self obsessed individuals to AGAIN discuss themselves .. to be in the LIMELIGHT ... to listen to the SOUND of their OWN VOICES, discussing their FAVOURITE subject ........ THEMSELVES !

Such preciousness !

Such pretentiousness !

Such conceit !

Such wannabes, lol.

I'm going to go out on a limb here but suggest this for modifying "conditions".

Instead of "Freemasonry in the UK has a lot of business men senior lawyers land owners" etc...

Say that a lot of business men senior lawyers and land owners are Masons...because Masonry can be among many classes but some classes may have a lot of Masons within.

It doesn't reflect upon the fraternity as much as the fraternity reflects upon them.

Originally posted by carslake
In the city i live i know of no working class people that are masons or ever have been.

How would you know this? Are you a freemason? How many freemasons generally do you know in your city?

In my lodge there is a retired refuse collector and people who are unemployed. There are also retired policemen and professional men. There are also a large number of people who work for themselves with varying degrees of success. This mix varies lodge to lodge, with the further North you go the more likelihood of there being "working class' members.

In Scotland freemasonry is far more working class, whereas in England the RAOB is colloqually known as the 'working mans freemasonry'.

I used to live near the freemasons lodge and believe me the car park to the lodge was not full of cars the general public drove. Maybe this was a more exclusive lodge than most ...

Possibly. It wouldn't be very hard to find this information out - lodges vary enormously in their membership profile.

... but either way your a secret society with invitation only membership that lacks transparency.

Masonic lodges are private clubs that are under no obligation under present UK law to disclose their membership. They share this protection with all other private clubs in the UK, and you will be equally hard pressed to find a list of members of your local golf club, WMC or Rotary club. In all these cases, including freemasonry, membership lists are available for the use of the members only but sometimes these can be obtained on request.

I should point out that in common with other clubs, masonic lodges are fully audited each year and comply with all relevent legislation.

Under a different political climate you would be persecuted for being an unknown threat.

This is quite true, freemasonry was seriously persecuted under the Nazi regime in Germany and many freemasons were killed. Even today in the UK freemasons are persucuted by being singled out for 'special treatment' by some government bodies.

However, I don't agree with your assertion that freemasonry is an unknown threat. The aims and goals of freemasonry are well documented and available for all to see. I recommend a visit to www.grandlodge-england.org... for some background reading but there will probably also be a lot of information on your local province's website, wherever you are located in the country.

Get wise man you act all secretive then stand around going 'theres nothing to see here move along' or start ganging up on people to shut them up. Ofcourse you raise our suspicions and theres no need for it if you have nothing to hide, nobody is above scrutiny although masons seem to think they are.

Not sure what you mean. Freemasons are among the most scrutinized groups in the country. If there is anything specifically you would like to know about freemasonry now I would be pleased to oblige.

Originally posted by Dock6
I'd go further and suggest that the OP was designed to allow self obsessed individuals to AGAIN discuss themselves .. to be in the LIMELIGHT ... to listen to the SOUND of their OWN VOICES, discussing their FAVOURITE subject ........ THEMSELVES !

Such preciousness !

Such pretentiousness !

Such conceit !

Such wannabes, lol.

I know I shouldn't be feeding trolls, but... have you got anything to add apart from this ad hominem garbage?

I can imply all kinds of negative things about you. You would then be perfectly within your rights to respond. Why not the Freemasons? Is it because the responses tend to outline the ludicrous nature of the attacks, methodically, systematically, and to the frustration of those making the allegations?

Is that your justification for using obviously-inappropriate words like "pretentiousness" and "conceit"?

Would it be less conceited to NOT respond? Would it be less conceited to respond less intelligently? What would make you happy?

You're a clown, mate. Do better, if you expect to be taken seriously.

This is isn't about whether Freemasonry is actually a threat, its about Freemasonry possesing all the components nescessary to present an 'unknown threat' a term used to define a potential threat of unknown quality sometimes used by Intelligence/Military agencies involved in Counter-espionage. Some political parties(communists, greens), militant trade unions, community action groups, private clubs, charities, NGO's etc..... attract alot of attention just because it can be an influencial group beyond the direct control of the authority. Why the suspicion, well its part of human nature, people think your an exclusive club so you have something hide. The suspicion of masons exists for the public and sometimes for authority whether its warranted or not.
.

Originally posted by carslake

This is isn't about whether Freemasonry is actually a threat, its about Freemasonry possesing all the components nescessary to present an 'unknown threat' a term used to define a potential threat of unknown quality sometimes used by Intelligence/Military agencies involved in Counter-espionage. Some political parties(communists, greens), militant trade unions, community action groups, private clubs, charities, NGO's etc..... attract alot of attention just because it can be an influencial group beyond the direct control of the authority. Why the suspicion, well its part of human nature, people think your an exclusive club so you have something hide. The suspicion of masons exists for the public and sometimes for authority whether its warranted or not.
.

I hope you're not suggesting that if a person or group is a potential threat then they should be treated as though they are an actual threat. I have heard it said that all men are potential rapists - by this logic all men should be incarcerated in case they rape someone.

This is very much an example of 'suspicious minds', and tells us more about the paranoia of the people who are concerned about private groups than the groups themselves. Why should legitimate private activity be turned over to public scrutiny? Peeping Toms and voyeurs may be happy but the rest of us will be diminuished by it all.

You may be interested to know that every freemason in England and Wales has taken an oath of allegiance to the Queen, the country and the rule of law within it. They have taken a solemn obligation to uphold the Law of the Land, in spirit as well as in practice. This is in direct contrast to most UK citizens who have made no such undertaking. I would suggest to you that this makes freemasons more reliable and trustworthy, not less.

Originally posted by Dock6

Such wannabes, lol.

Wannabe what ? We are Masons...what more could I want to be ?
Perhaps the people on the outside wanting to look in are the wannabes.

Let's please discuss the topic and not each other. Though some members on this site may happen to be masons, and some members may happen to believe that masons are evil, this does not give the right for anyone to start getting personal about it. Any topic within the T&C can be discussed in a broader scope, especially this one, without calling out a single member.

Thanks.

[edit on 3/17/07 by niteboy82]

Originally posted by niteboy82
Let's please discuss the topic and not each other. Though some members on this site may happen to be masons, and some members may happen to believe that masons are evil, this does not give the right for anyone to start getting personal about it. Any topic within the T&C can be discussed in a broader scope, especially this one, without calling out a single member.

Thanks.

[edit on 3/17/07 by niteboy82]

Hi niteboy82

I don't know if you realized this thread is almost 2 months old, and I'm not sure how many of the original participants will get your message.

Apart from me .

Good job anyways Niteboy! Flex those Mod Muscles!!!

What the secrets are is from many sources and different to some extent
from each Masonic Jurisdiction but Basically the "Secret" of
Freemasonry is to indoctrinate them with the Erronious beliefe that
Masonry Has "More" enlightenment to enable a Mason to get "More
Masonic Light".

For Each Degree teaches that he is in search of "More" Masonic Light
which is shrouded in Symbolism and "So called Mysteries of
freemasonry" and in each Degree he "receives" More Masonic Light.

This Light is to eventually lead him to come to Know the "True" Name
of God. Which is a Lie of Satan for all the Names of God are already
Known and are in Gods Holy Word Already in The Holy Bible which we Now
have.

It is the same Lie and Ploy of Satan that he tried on Eve in the
Garden of Eden "Yea Hath god said" and He led her to believe that same
lie that God was "Withholding" something from you that Satan was all
too willing to give to her.

She fell for the same "Mysterious" something that she believed she
could get from Satan - when he told her "For God doth Know that "WHEN"
you eat of this "Tree" you will "Become as gods "Knowing good
and
evil" and "when she ate" of it "In disobedience to Gods Command
not to
do so - She realized she had sinned and it was too late.

Just as the "Candidate for Freemasonry" stands without the portals of
Freemasonry - he is anticipating "some of the Mystery" of Masonry he
has been lied to about and in this "Deceived" state - he not "Knowing"
what he is about to enter does - and as Eve Did "partakes" of the
forbidden "Fruit of the Knowledge" of a Cult and False religion.

And the Mason is Lied to all the way through that the "Secrets" of
masonry has been "Handed down through the years in the repository of
the Faithful Breast" of every Mason. When they know perfectely well
that is a Lie and "Practicing falsehood" is a Great Sin Before God!

The teachings of Freemasonry they say is to make it's members "Wiser -
Better - and Consequently Happier. It is founded upon the purest
Principles of Brotherly Love - Morality and Reliefe.

Of course there is nothing in any of it's teaching that can give any
Man more that the Life of a Christian who Has Grown in the fullness of
the grace and Knowledge of God and who remains in the will of God.

And as Paul wrote in Ephesians 4:13 "Till we all come in the unity of
the Faith, and of the Knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect Man,
unto the Measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ".

Masonry does just the oposite of this they are working through the
"System of Morality" of "Circumscribing their Desires" and "Keeping
their Passions within due Bounds" with the "Working tools of
Freemasonry" and by "Squaring their actions by the "Square"
of
"Virtue".

We as Christians Know that God's word teaches that Man is not "Saved"
by "his good works".
In Genesis Cain was the first Apostate who insisted that God "Accept"
his "Sacrifice" of what he had "produced" of the offering if
what he
had done.

And God did not "accept" Cains "offering" because there was
no "Blood"
sacrifice. There was no "Atonement for sin" Hebrews 9:22 "And almost
all things are by the Law purged with blood AND WITHOUT SHEDDING OF
BLOOD IS NO REMISSION"

The only way any Man can Receive "Remission" or the "putting away
of
his sins" is through the Shed Blood of Jesus Christ.

When Adam and Eve Sinned God "Covered" their bodies with the "Blood"
with the Skin of the "Sacrificed" animal. To "atone" or take
the place
of and cover their sin - in order to appease his wrath and Judgement
which would have fallen upon them.

Notice when God told them "In the day that ye "Eat" thereof of the
fruit of the tree of the Knowledge of good and evil "Ye Shall Surely
Die"
did they die that day?

No - Why did they not die - God "Made Atonement" he was "Reconciled"
with them by the "Substitute" of the Blood and Life of the Innocent
Sacrifice "HE MADE FOR THEIR SIN".

The closest thing that Freemasonry comes to this is The "Lambskin" or
"Apron" which they say is the "Emblem" of innocense and "The
Badge of
a Mason".

which then tells them "Let it's pure and spotless surface be to you a
EVER PRESENT reminder of that "PURITY OF LIFE AND RECTITUDE OF CONDUCT
SO "ESSENTIALLY NECESSARY" TO GAINING ADMISSION TO THAT CELESTIAL
LODGE ABOVE WHERE THE SUPREME ARCHITECH OF THE UNIVERSE PRESIDES".

This "Apron" is placed upon the Casket of a Deceased Mason when he
dies and the statement is then said - "This emblem I now Deposit in
the Grave of our deceased Brother". (He deposits it) and says: "By it
we are reminded of that purity of life and conduct so essentially
necessary to gaining admission to that Celestial Lodge above where the
Supreme Architech Presides".

Nothing is said ANYWHERE IN THE LAST RITES OF A MASON OF HIS HAVING
EVER RECEIVED JESUS CHRIST AS HIS LORD AND SAVIOR!

Nothing in any Prayer or of the Ceremony is mentioned of Jesus Christ!

But notice the next item the "White Glove" is Placed upon the Casket
and it is said: "This Glove is an emblem of "Fidelity" and
enblematical of that Masonic friendship which boudn us to him whose
tenement of clay lies before us.
"IT REMINDS US THAT WHILE OUR MORTAL EYES SHALL SEE HIM NOT AGAIN;
"YET BY THE PRACTICE OF THE TENENTS (TEACHINGS) OF OUR NOBLE ORDER AND
A FIRM FAITH AND A STEADFAST TRUST IN THE "SUPREME ARCHITECH", (NOT
JESUS) WE HOPE TO CLASP ONCE MORE HIS VANISHED HAND IN LOVE AND
FRIENDSHIP" (DEPOSITS GLOVE) SLEEP ON MY BROTHER WHAT VIRTUE UNITES
DEATH NEVER PARTS"

No mention of Jesus!

The next item is the "Sprig of Evergreen" which is emblembmatical of
"Our Beliefe" in the "IMMORTALITY OF THE SOUL" - By this we
bekieve we
have an immortal part within us that "SHALL SURVIVE THE GRAVE" and
which shall never never Die.

Yet through our beliefe in the "MERCY OF GOD" We may "Confidently
Hope" that "OUR SOULS WILL SOON BLOOM IN ETERNAL SPRING". Then they
sing this anthem - "Lord of all Below - Above,
Fill us with thy truth and Love;
When disolves our earthly tie Take us to Thy Lodge on High".

A Beliefe in being "Pure" and "Spotless" which they are taught
is
"Essential Enough" to Get them to Heaven. "By keeping themselves"
by
"Their own self control" and "Self Subduction" to be Pure and
good
enough to get to heaven.
Not a Religion?

And by the "Practice of tenents of our Noble Order" they will Shake
the Hand of their departed Masonic Brother. (The Placing of the White
Glove)
Not a Religion?

The beliefe in the "Immortality of the Soul" that their Soul will live
on and "By the Mercy" of God Gain "Admission into That Heavenly Lodge
Above"
Gone to Heaven? Not a Religion?

The heresy of all this False Religion of "Working" their way to heaven
by their "Morality" and "Self Control" is absolutely Contrary
to The
Christian Faith and The Doctrines of the Bible and The Church.

No Christian can be a Part of this False Religious Cult. My Prayer for
every Mason is to Leave it immediately and you can face a "Merciful"
God one Day with no Regrets.

Originally posted by Andy Warhol


We as Christians....

"We"?

You got a mouse in your pocket or something?

Andy:

At the risk of stating the obvious... not every Mason is a Christian.

If one were pure, one could indeed gain entry to your precious afterlife according to the rules in the Good Book.

But, as Christians are taught, everybody sins. Nobody is pure. I fail to see how your tirade of quotation marks and capitalised words demonstrates a salvation by works doctrine on the part of Freemasonry. Our Islamic and Jewish brothers wouldn't even know how to respond to it. Jesus isn't quite as important to them as He is to our Christian members.

So... hmmm. Where to from here?

Nobody is pure as you have stated. But the sheeding of blood on the cross that nailed Jesus we are forgiven. That doesn't mean to go out and pray to something like G.A.O.T.U. that could be the Muslim god, the satanists god, or Buddha. So enlighten me Roark and Masonic light what exactly are the meanings of these phrases that you so foolishly have said.

This Light is to eventually lead him to come to Know the "True" Name
of God. Which is a Lie of Satan for all the Names of God are already
Known and are in Gods Holy Word Already in The Holy Bible which we Now
have.

which then tells them "Let it's pure and spotless surface be to you a
EVER PRESENT reminder of that "PURITY OF LIFE AND RECTITUDE OF CONDUCT
SO "ESSENTIALLY NECESSARY" TO GAINING ADMISSION TO THAT CELESTIAL
LODGE ABOVE WHERE THE SUPREME ARCHITECH OF THE UNIVERSE PRESIDES


This "Apron" is placed upon the Casket of a Deceased Mason when he
dies and the statement is then said - "This emblem I now Deposit in
the Grave of our deceased Brother". (He deposits it) and says: "By it
we are reminded of that purity of life and conduct so essentially
necessary to gaining admission to that Celestial Lodge above where the
Supreme Architech Presides".

But notice the next item the "White Glove" is Placed upon the Casket
and it is said: "This Glove is an emblem of "Fidelity" and
enblematical of that Masonic friendship which boudn us to him whose
tenement of clay lies before us.
"IT REMINDS US THAT WHILE OUR MORTAL EYES SHALL SEE HIM NOT AGAIN;
"YET BY THE PRACTICE OF THE TENENTS (TEACHINGS) OF OUR NOBLE ORDER AND
A FIRM FAITH AND A STEADFAST TRUST IN THE "SUPREME ARCHITECH", (NOT
JESUS) WE HOPE TO CLASP ONCE MORE HIS VANISHED HAND IN LOVE AND
FRIENDSHIP" (DEPOSITS GLOVE) SLEEP ON MY BROTHER WHAT VIRTUE UNITES
DEATH NEVER PARTS"

No mention of Jesus!

The next item is the "Sprig of Evergreen" which is emblembmatical of
"Our Beliefe" in the "IMMORTALITY OF THE SOUL" - By this we
bekieve we
have an immortal part within us that "SHALL SURVIVE THE GRAVE" and
which shall never never Die.

Yet through our beliefe in the "MERCY OF GOD" We may "Confidently
Hope" that "OUR SOULS WILL SOON BLOOM IN ETERNAL SPRING". Then they
sing this anthem - "Lord of all Below - Above,
Fill us with thy truth and Love;
When disolves our earthly tie Take us to Thy Lodge on High".

Take us to thy Lodge on High.

Better luck next time with the masonic spin

Andy- for someone who talks so religious and christlike I'm shocked that you would use the name of "Andy Warhol" even if it is in jest

Bizarre Personality
Warhol was a homosexual with a slightly bizarre personality. In the fifties he dyed his hair straw-blond. Later he replaced his real hair by blond and silver-grey wigs.

The pop artist loved cats, and images of them can be found on quite a few of his art works. One of Andy's friends described him as a true workaholic. Warhol was obsessed by the ambition to become famous and wealthy. And he knew he could achieve the American dream only by hard work.

In his last years Warhol promoted other artists like Keith Haring or Robert Mapplethorpe.

www.artelino.com...

Corsig are you going to debate the topic at hand? Or just be a stooge? Yeah I know who Andy was. It's a goof. I can honestly say that I have never been pulled around by another man with a rope around my neck half naked, and blindfolded. You?

Why should the Masons mention Jesus?

If they were a group for just Christians would you support them 100%?

Originally posted by Andy Warhol
Corsig are you going to debate the topic at hand? Or just be a stooge? Yeah I know who Andy was. It's a goof. I can honestly say that I have never been pulled around by another man with a rope around my neck half naked, and blindfolded. You?

No I'm not going to debate this topic because it is a Merry-Go-Round of boredom and the same old rehashed crap I've seen a million time before.

When you get bored with us another guy will take your place and carry on the same dialoge about recenty finding Jesus and making it his duty to save our souls blah blah blah.

You say that you have never been pulled around by another man with a rope around my neck half naked, and blindfolded but maybe you should try it you might just like it.

I've never been pulled around by a rope blindfolded and half-naked either...

Originally posted by Andy Warhol
Nobody is pure as you have stated. But the sheeding of blood on the cross that nailed Jesus we are forgiven. That doesn't mean to go out and pray to something like G.A.O.T.U. that could be the Muslim god, the satanists god, or Buddha. So enlighten me Roark and Masonic light what exactly are the meanings of these phrases that you so foolishly have said.

This Light is to eventually lead him to come to Know the "True" Name
of God. Which is a Lie of Satan for all the Names of God are already
Known and are in Gods Holy Word Already in The Holy Bible which we Now
have.

which then tells them "Let it's pure and spotless surface be to you a
EVER PRESENT reminder of that "PURITY OF LIFE AND RECTITUDE OF CONDUCT
SO "ESSENTIALLY NECESSARY" TO GAINING ADMISSION TO THAT CELESTIAL
LODGE ABOVE WHERE THE SUPREME ARCHITECH OF THE UNIVERSE PRESIDES

I never said those words, so... hmmm.

Originally posted by Andy WarholBetter luck next time with the masonic spin

If you think I'm just lying continuously, then you're coming from a position that I can't even begin to fathom...

Basically, you're trying to debate theology with fraternity members whose overarching organisation doesn't even pretend to deal with issues like salvation and theological doctrine, and whom you assume are lying about everything anyway! So, I really don't get what you hope to accomplish.

Yes - very good Andy Warhol. Yep, you figured it out - "Satan" is behind it all! How original of you (Sarcasm)! Spoken like a True Fundamentalist L@@N W@CK-J@B! It looks like we have another Brain in a box!

P.S. Just exactly is "False Religion"? Just what is "True Religion" in that case? Let me guess - Your Religion is True & every other Religion is "False" - right? Do you realize that not everyone Worships "Jesus"? Wow, unheard of - I know! You do know that it is 2007, correct? Are you an American? You have heard of the concepts of Freedom, Liberty & Tolerance - have you not? Also, Freemasonry in itself is NOT a Religion!