Scrutiny of Anti-Freemasons

I agree with this:

"... The essential purpose of Freemasonry is the further development of the individual Mason as an honest, ethical, moral, sincere, caring and charitable man, learning more about his own potential as a human being and developing his intellectual and spiritual character." In short, making good men better.

Yep - Perfect!

you know what god you serve.

Oh Boy - here we go again! I guess everyone that does not belong to your Church or Denomination or perhaps is not of your Religion must be a "Satanist" & will burn in Hell for all "Eternity" - Correct? How Enlightened of you ( SARCASM )!

[edit on 21-1-2007 by Seraphim_Serpente]

[edit on 21-1-2007 by Seraphim_Serpente]

Originally posted by TheRepublic
i agree with adc

my great grandfather was a mason, and in doing research on it i discovered some very disturbing things, but it all boils down to this:

all secret societies are evil.

masons claim that they are for the brotherhood of man, and equality of all.
this is the biggest load of horse poop ever dropped on planet earth.
what brothers keep secrets from each other?
if we are all equals, why do some get "illumination" while keeping others in the dark.
knowledge is power and secrets are a device for manipulation of the ones who do not know the secrets. using knowledge to suppress those who are not in your circle.

i dont care how many "charity fundraisers" the masons and all the other secret societies do, it is just the icing on a giant maggot infested cowpie.

to those on the bottom levels of masonry think open mindedly:
what brothers keep secrets? equals by nature must have the same amount of knowledge...masonry is hypocritical then. carefully observe everything in the symbols. they are not just pretty pictures.

and to those truly illuminated ones at the top:
you know what god you serve. keep praying to the east. i hope the earthly benefits of your "craft" are worth it. eternity lasts a long time.

OK so I am going to assume you yourself have no secrets whatsoever and will now tell all of us about any drug use, all of your sexual habits, asignations and predelictions, anything that may be considered criminal behavior, a complete list of all your friends and anything they may have done that is considered criminal and unusual and all and any of your beleiifs, religious, political or otherwise.

Lets start there...

TheRepublic - please review this Thread in regards to the "Secrets" being Evil debate:

"Simple reason why I'm Anti-Secret Societies/Freemasonry"
www.abovetopsecret.com...



[edit on 21-1-2007 by Seraphim_Serpente]

If you were so great surely youd do something about the worlds problems instead of donating ambulances?

seraphim

thanks for the link to the thread i had not seen that one before. it looks interesting and relevant. the secrecy is the main qualm i have. nothing good can come from secrets.



RWPBR

i have nothing to hide, im not part of some secretive group. my only allegiance is to God and Jesus. what do you want to know specifically?
also in relation to secrets. there is a difference between secrecy and privacy. i am an individual. i am not part of a large group whose members hold the upper echelons of power. i am one man. the country i live in, the girl i date, the time i got drunk when i was 16...none of these things really matter in the order of the world, so as an individual i am entitled to some privacy. you on the other hand as a member of a higher group with connections to some of the highest seats of power (even the founding of the US,) secrets held between you all have profound implications for me and all of my un-initiated brethren. there is a difference, don’t be sarcastic.

i just don’t really understand masons being on a website devoted to denying ignorance, when the lower ones are willingly in ignorance, and the higher ones delight in keeping others in ignorance...or maybe i do understand.

Originally posted by adc
If you were so great surely youd do something about the worlds problems instead of donating ambulances?

You are fast revealing yourself to be a moron

Try to stay on topic and discuss things instead of just making out of context statements that you yourself dont even completly understand...

[edit on 21-1-2007 by RWPBR]

Everyone who feeds into the myth of NWO masonry just keeps making money for crackpots* Masons who avidly defend their organization feed the flames by making the antis seem like they actually know something* Modern masonry seems to be pretty boring

Originally posted by TheRepublic
seraphim

thanks for the link to the thread i had not seen that one before. it looks interesting and relevant. the secrecy is the main qualm i have. nothing good can come from secrets.



RWPBR

i have nothing to hide, im not part of some secretive group. my only allegiance is to God and Jesus. what do you want to know specifically?
also in relation to secrets. there is a difference between secrecy and privacy. i am an individual. i am not part of a large group whose members hold the upper echelons of power. i am one man. the country i live in, the girl i date, the time i got drunk when i was 16...none of these things really matter in the order of the world, so as an individual i am entitled to some privacy. you on the other hand as a member of a higher group with connections to some of the highest seats of power (even the founding of the US,) secrets held between you all have profound implications for me and all of my un-initiated brethren. there is a difference, don’t be sarcastic.

i just don’t really understand masons being on a website devoted to denying ignorance, when the lower ones are willingly in ignorance, and the higher ones delight in keeping others in ignorance...or maybe i do understand.

The only difference between secrecy and privacy is perspective.
When they are YOUR secrets it is a privacy issue. When they are MY secrets it is a conspiracy issue.

I have the right to assemble with any group of persons I choose and to discuss with them any subject I choose either in public or private. This is the same right you exercise when you assemble with your fellow Christians. Seeing as how there are more Christians then there are Masons ans seeing as how our own President is a Christian I think YOUR private matters are of more concern then ours.

We are here to deny ignorance. People who are not Masons and yet claim to be experts on Masonry are truely ignorant just as I , being a male, would be to claim expertise on the pain of childbirth.

Everything you believe to know about masonry is either a lie, a hoax or supposition and that fact does not change simply because you dont believe it.

your argument is full of fallacy.

first of all i never said you didnt have a right to assemble.

like i said before the details of my life, dont influence world events.
in contrast to the details of your organization found countries (the USA)
and has control over the thoughts and minds of many politicians.
there is a diffrence.

also you know full well our president is a member of the skull and bones fraternity, (as was his father, john kerry and many other of our "leaders"), an off shoot of masonry, and his "christianity" is highly questionable. also i am a christian, not a catholic or a lutheran or anything else... i go by the bible, and the bible says "the truth shall set you free" we dont have any secrets! go read the bible from front to back...guess what now you know all we have. but your religion....

you can contrast that with your little oaths about having youre tongue ripped out or heart thrown over your left shoulder if you divulge secrets...

also anyone can walk right in in any church service and they are welcomed. can i just barge into one of your lodge meetings and have a seat?....

many masons claim to be Christians, but freemasonry is a type of religion.
a man can not serve two masters. and Bushes actions are not reflecting him serving God, or Jesus. Jesus would rather be crucified than put up a fight, but bush has us over in iraq for "deity" knows why. so therefore he is serving your new world order master, not my God.

what would be the purpose of a secret society like masonry if the secrets were not of astounding importance?

and i am supposed to believe you are here to tell everyone there is nothing sinister under all these layers of secrecy... and i am the crazy one for thinking there is something wrong with your secrecy amongst the most powerful and elite. i am supposed to trust that you all are looking out in my best interest. im sure you are. the elite always look out for the common man, and not their own interests.

just out of curiosity what degree are you?

you either dont know who you serve and are truly misguided, which if that is the case id be glad to talk further, or you know full well who you serve in which case i am through talking to you.


[edit on 22-1-2007 by TheRepublic]

The whole point is this : You do not know anything about Masonry because you are not a Mason. The things you THINK you do know are things you have been told by people who are not Masons and therefore THEY dont know either... and yet you judge us based on Ignorance, Paranoia and Fear... and you call yourself a Christian.

You say I dont know anything about the group I am a member of while you, a non member, know all about it and yet you admit it is a secret society that nobody knows anything about...well which is it buddy ?

As far as Masons making decisions that affect world events, the last Masonic decision I made was to have Pizza instead of Subs at the next Lodge meeting.

But I know you will continue to believe the lies and asumptions you have read and been told my non Masons and to tell you the truth, a small part of me enjoys the fact that you fear me and my brothers based on nothing more than suspicion and supposition. In some small way it gives me power over you

Originally posted by RWPBR
The whole point is this : You do not know anything about Masonry because you are not a Mason. The things you THINK you do know are things you have been told by people who are not Masons and therefore THEY dont know either... and yet you judge us based on Ignorance, Paranoia and Fear... and you call yourself a Christian.

You say I dont know anything about the group I am a member of while you, a non member, know all about it and yet you admit it is a secret society that nobody knows anything about...well which is it buddy ?

As far as Masons making decisions that affect world events, the last Masonic decision I made was to have Pizza instead of Subs at the next Lodge meeting.

But I know you will continue to believe the lies and asumptions you have read and been told my non Masons and to tell you the truth, a small part of me enjoys the fact that you fear me and my brothers based on nothing more than suspicion and supposition. In some small way it gives me power over you

What degree are you in Freemasonry, specifically? I just want to know what your credentials are to speak on the subject yourself.

I have been told by one former mason as well as many conspiracy theorists who are in fact credible because they did more research on it than you could possibly imagine, but all that aside, let me ask you this:

Is George Bush Jr and Sr a mason?
Is Dick Cheney a mason?
Is Karl Rove a mason?

What fine, decent, morally upstanding people the organization has, just to name a few.

The Bush's are Bonesmen not Mason's. They graduated from yale and are well known to be part of the Skull and Bones

Why is it every mason thread I read here all the same, seriously we could delete 90% of the posts in this forum and not lose one tiny bit of info.

The usual pattern is:
1. New person to the site says something bad against masonry
2. A mason defends his glorified frat
3. The mason call to arms occurs and like a shark feeding frenzy they all come to attack this new person.
4. A member who has seen this pack attack will read the same posts and comments from said masons that they have written in every other thread and finally have enough and try to deflect some of the flaming this new member is now copping from the mason hordes
5. The entire thing goes round in circles for about 3 -4 pages until the non masons give up wished they never had said anything.
6. Another new member learns to stay away from the Secret Societies forum.

so ADC save yourself some heart ache and head aches and let this thread die. You wont win.

As far as Masons making decisions that affect world events, the last Masonic decision I made was to have Pizza instead of Subs at the next Lodge meeting.

WHat degree qualifies you for such an honor, is that 31 or 32 I forget?
Sleak avatars and fancy quotes aside, I dont find any of the "masons" on this board particulary "enlightened".

However I know/knew 2 persons, one which is very close to me, describe in full detail events that had Masons acting way out of line. Whether or not they were acting on their lodges account I do not know for sure, but they got orders from somewhere over phone. What they did was in my eyes downright criminal.
I won´t give out more info out of respect for the involved persons.

.

In the UK Freemasons are an exclusive lot, membership is by invitation and is usually for the business/professional class(senior lawyers, accountants, judiciary, police, senior civil servants, land owners).

Their activities are not discussed by the public due to lack of any credible information. However the information that does come to light is the high level corruption that sometimes appears regarding some of these people. This includes illegal property development, fraud, obstruction of justice...... No other group with so much influence and power would be allowed to exist in this country if it wasn't part of the establishment. This does lead to a high level of distrust surrounding Masons by the general public which has and does create social schisms and which in some way is totally justified.

.

Originally posted by tkmelb
Why is it every mason thread I read here all the same, seriously we could delete 90% of the posts in this forum and not lose one tiny bit of info.

The usual pattern is:
1. New person to the site says something bad against masonry
2. A mason defends his glorified frat
3. The mason call to arms occurs and like a shark feeding frenzy they all come to attack this new person.
4. A member who has seen this pack attack will read the same posts and comments from said masons that they have written in every other thread and finally have enough and try to deflect some of the flaming this new member is now copping from the mason hordes
5. The entire thing goes round in circles for about 3 -4 pages until the non masons give up wished they never had said anything.
6. Another new member learns to stay away from the Secret Societies forum.

so ADC save yourself some heart ache and head aches and let this thread die. You wont win.

I sort of agree, but you have to remember: it's not us that keep coming on here lying about members. We certainly deserve the opportunity to defend ourselves, and to Deny Ignorance.

If someone has honest questions, he will be answered honestly and respectfully. If someone comes to troll and bait, well...not so much.

Originally posted by FreiMaurer
Look this is based on many of the Anti-masonic videos I've been finding here...and I must admit.

I never listened to them before but I'm fairly bored.

Now - these guys to me seem to be the most ignorant fools not only about Masonry that's less important but they are actually denegrating Christianity in the process.

I just heard a guy saying that Egypt was "depravity and incest" or some such thing - denegrating history ... is this the ignorance anti-masons have the best to offer?

The power with that sort lies not within the Truth, but within the ability to generate enough suspicions within those who know little to nothing about the subject by tainting their first exposure to it through fear mongering.

It's a tried and true psychological technique to *ahem* initiate the unknowing into a world of deciet and lies before they have a change to learn otherwise.

Odd then, that they proclaim themselves to be more upright than the Masonic community - who, in these parts, does more charity work than most of the anti-masonic community.

Just a two cents there, nothing official. I'm not a Mason.

Originally posted by TheRepublic


like i said before the details of my life, dont influence world events.

But you think that fraternal organizations do?

in contrast to the details of your organization found countries (the USA)
and has control over the thoughts and minds of many politicians.
there is a diffrence.

And who are these "many politicians'. Out of all the people in Congress, the White House, and the Supreme Court, I can only think of about 4 who are Masons. Contrast this to the Colonial Government, when a large percentage were Masons. One could easily draw the conclusion that the current problems and state of the world, which weren't around when Masons were a majority in government, is due to a lack of adherence to the Enlightened and Masonic ideals that this country was founded upon.

also you know full well our president is a member of the skull and bones fraternity, (as was his father, john kerry and many other of our "leaders"), an off shoot of masonry, and his "christianity" is highly questionable.

I couldn't care less about his "Christianity", but I don't think you're qualified to sit in God's seat and judge his religious beliefs.

Furthermore, Skull and Bones is a college frat, not an " off shoot of Masonry".

also i am a christian, not a catholic or a lutheran or anything else... i go by the bible, and the bible says "the truth shall set you free" we dont have any secrets! go read the bible from front to back...guess what now you know all we have. but your religion....

If you're actually telling the truth about reading the bible, you will recall Christ telling the Apostles not to cast their pearls before swine. Also, I would recommend re-reading the Proverbs, which contains quite a few verses on the virtues of secrecy.

many masons claim to be Christians, but freemasonry is a type of religion.
a man can not serve two masters. and Bushes actions are not reflecting him serving God, or Jesus. Jesus would rather be crucified than put up a fight, but bush has us over in iraq for "deity" knows why. so therefore he is serving your new world order master, not my God.

Since George Bush is not now, nor has ever been, a Freemason, your comment is pointless. Furthermore, he doesn't even represent the view of all Skull and Bones alumni. Just ask John Kerry.

what would be the purpose of a secret society like masonry if the secrets were not of astounding importance?

You're confusing the issue. The secrets may have been of astounding importance at one time, but now they are traditional only. If the original secrets concerned the mysterious doctrines of the Kabalah as many Masons have claimes, then such knowledge, although held at one time in strictest secrecy, is now a pop culture phenomenon. One no longer has to join a secret society to study such things simply because the church no longer has the power to burn people at the stake for doing so.

i am supposed to trust that you all are looking out in my best interest.

I don't even know you. If you are a grown man, it's your responsibility to do that for yourself.

just out of curiosity what degree are you?

I am a Master Mason, Past Master in my Lodge, hold the 32° in the Scottish Rite, Knight Templar in the York Rite, and am a Noble in the Shrine, along with various honorary and side degrees.

you either dont know who you serve and are truly misguided, which if that is the case id be glad to talk further, or you know full well who you serve in which case i am through talking to you.

Everyone is aware of whom they serve. There cannot be service without knowledge.

I'd just like to thank everyone who has taken part in this thread so far for making it so entertaining without being (too) insulting.

Oh, and carslake...

Originally posted by carslake
In the UK Freemasons are an exclusive lot, membership is by invitation and is usually for the business/professional class(senior lawyers, accountants, judiciary, police, senior civil servants, land owners).

What evidence do you have for this allegation? I have met hundreds of English freemasons in my time and they are drawn from as wide a spread of the general public as you could imagine. I would say that membership of the groups you listed above in freemasonry is no different to the percentage in the general population.

I would venture to suggest that you have picked this opinion on UK freemasonry up from a book, or something, rather than any direct experience of freemasons.

Their activities are not discussed by the public due to lack of any credible information.

Masonic activities are not discussed by the media because it doesn't sell newspapers. The charitable activities are rarely picked up by local media and NEVER by the national press. Contrast this with when a freemason does something wrong... suddenly they have a salatious story that sells newsprint.

If you trust the media to give an accurate portrayal of any sub-set of society in lieu of sales figures then that's up to you...

However the information that does come to light is the high level corruption that sometimes appears regarding some of these people.

It reminds me of the famous Monty Python sketch... "and suddenly,... nothing happened!" The general public are only interested in reading about 'something happening'. This is why books like Martin Short's "The Brotherhood" sell so well and W. Kirk MacNulty's don't.

Don't believe everything you read from people who have an axe to grind and a buck to make.

This includes illegal property development, fraud, obstruction of justice...... No other group with so much influence and power would be allowed to exist in this country if it wasn't part of the establishment. This does lead to a high level of distrust surrounding Masons by the general public which has and does create social schisms and which in some way is totally justified.

Apparently totally justified. Don't you think it is equally likely that the "Establishment" is setting Freemasonry up as a patsy? A Red Herring to keep you from finding the real culprits? If this is true then they don't do their homework very well, as there is always at least one obvious factual error in every attack.

Take some time to look into this further.

Originally posted by Trinityman
I'd just like to thank everyone who has taken part in this thread so far for making it so entertaining without being (too) insulting.

Oh, and carslake...

Originally posted by carslake
In the UK Freemasons are an exclusive lot, membership is by invitation and is usually for the business/professional class(senior lawyers, accountants, judiciary, police, senior civil servants, land owners).

What evidence do you have for this allegation? I have met hundreds of English freemasons in my time and they are drawn from as wide a spread of the general public as you could imagine. I would say that membership of the groups you listed above in freemasonry is no different to the percentage in the general population.

I would venture to suggest that you have picked this opinion on UK freemasonry up from a book, or something, rather than any direct experience of freemasons.

Their activities are not discussed by the public due to lack of any credible information.

Masonic activities are not discussed by the media because it doesn't sell newspapers. The charitable activities are rarely picked up by local media and NEVER by the national press. Contrast this with when a freemason does something wrong... suddenly they have a salatious story that sells newsprint.

If you trust the media to give an accurate portrayal of any sub-set of society in lieu of sales figures then that's up to you...

However the information that does come to light is the high level corruption that sometimes appears regarding some of these people.

It reminds me of the famous Monty Python sketch... "and suddenly,... nothing happened!" The general public are only interested in reading about 'something happening'. This is why books like Martin Short's "The Brotherhood" sell so well and W. Kirk MacNulty's don't.

Don't believe everything you read from people who have an axe to grind and a buck to make.

This includes illegal property development, fraud, obstruction of justice...... No other group with so much influence and power would be allowed to exist in this country if it wasn't part of the establishment. This does lead to a high level of distrust surrounding Masons by the general public which has and does create social schisms and which in some way is totally justified.

Apparently totally justified. Don't you think it is equally likely that the "Establishment" is setting Freemasonry up as a patsy? A Red Herring to keep you from finding the real culprits? If this is true then they don't do their homework very well, as there is always at least one obvious factual error in every attack.

Take some time to look into this further.

In the city i live i know of no working class people that are masons or ever have been. I used to live near the freemasons lodge and believe me the car park to the lodge was not full of cars the general public drove.
Maybe this was a more exclusive lodge than most but either way your a secret society with invitation only membership that lacks transparency. Under a different political climate you would be persecuted for being an unknown threat. Get wise man you act all secretive then stand around going 'theres nothing to see here move along' or start ganging up on people to shut them up. Ofcourse you raise our suspicions and theres no need for it if you have nothing to hide, nobody is above scrutiny although masons seem to think they are.

.