HUD Secretary Speaks Against Black Victimhood

Originally posted by intrepid
I'm NOT a conservative but I find his message of "personal accountability" to be relevant.

I'm FAR from being a conservative, too. I don't know why Bill Cosby is always attached to conservatives. It's just not true that conservatives are the only ones to identify with his message.

I have held the position of personal accountability as a tool of power in my life for many years. For the last 12-13 years, I have embraced personal accountability in the message of "Whatever occurs in my life, I am accountable for."

It's extremely empowering. That means that whatever life lays at my feet, it's up to me to deal with it. There's no room to blame others, and it doesn't MATTER who's to blame. It's about tossing blame out the window completely. It's the exact opposite of victimization. It's not easy to do, but like most things, once it becomes a habit, it gets easier. And I wouldn't have it any other way. But it's obviously not for everybody.

Accountable is not the same as responsible. Whatever comes to me, I handle. I am accountable for it.

Edit: HH, I'll answer you tomorrow. Off to spend time with hubby and dogs.

[edit on 2-2-2007 by Benevolent Heretic]

Originally quoted by intrepid

Cool, do YOU have a viable option to "personal accountability"?

Sorry, intrepid. I had to run an errand before I could answer your important question.

Yes, I do have a viable option for "personal accountability".

I have always believed that people have to build self-worth and self-esteem through hard work, developing their ethical base and being generous to others.

Once a person has built their own self-worth, they are able to transfer their own skills of personal accountability and responsibility to their community, state and nation.

I have always been a proponent of the adage, "It takes a village to raise a child". That is a very interesting African saying.

To love and care for one's self is to also love their family, community and their nation. That means helping the least of us, fighting for justice for all, alerting others to injustice and doing the best we can every day in order to set a good example for our youth to follow.

If you don't love and care for yourself, you cannot be responsible in the first place to do the things to not only make yourself better, but society better.


That is a far different message than the tripe that is easily believed by hucksters like Mr. Jackson and Mr. Cosby. They use the "blame game" in order to promote elitist ideals while lording over others with their achievements. And especially in Mr. Jackson's case--via his treatment of the poor--he hasn't a leg to stand on about telling our community what to do. He was only doing that to get a pat on the head from his handlers.

The problem with "the message" of folks like Cosby is that they subscribe to the self. This same message is echoed in the thinking of the dominant culture. The ultimate goal of those who prescribe to this type of thinking is to think of only themselves and not other people. As a result, greed, segregation, blame and warfare occurs. Furthermore, personal accountability to the "self-oriented" person is through how many awards they earn, how much money they make, how educated they are as well as how much they can flaunt their achievements to others. The "self" is not the end of the social universe.

That's why I find "the message" by Messrs. Jackson and Cosby problematic. How can they tell others to achieve when they themselves are problematic figures in their own right? And how can they tell the Black Community anything if they blame them for their faults?

Would you listen to someone telling you how to do things after a tirade of everything you've done wrong?


[edit on 3-2-2007 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by ceci2006
I have always been a proponent of the adage, "It takes a village to raise a child". That is a very interesting African saying.

I always thought it was, "It takes two parents to raise a child"?

Originally posted by ceci2006
That is a far different message than the tripe that is easily believed by hucksters like Mr. Jackson and Mr. Cosby.

Wow, and all this time I thought they were trying to give people "good, positive advice".

Originally posted by ceci2006
The problem with "the message" of folks like Cosby is that they subscribe to the self.

Wow, and all this time I thought he was trying to give people "good, positive advice".

Originally posted by ceci2006
This same message is echoed in the thinking of the dominant culture.

You mean the white man?

Originally posted by ceci2006
The ultimate goal of those who prescribe to this type of thinking is to think of only themselves and no other people.

What is it you want?

Originally posted by ceci2006
As a result, greed, segregation, blame and warfare occurs.

Just curious, who's guilty of this? Tell me.

Originally posted by ceci2006
Furthermore, personal accountability to the "self-oriented" person is through how many awards they earn, how much money they make, how educated they are as well as how much they can flaunt their achievements to others. The "self" is not the end of the social universe.

I see, so awards, wealth, success and education are not something to be proud of?
How dare people feel that way?
So what you're saying is people should be ashamed to be accredited, financially secure and knowledgeable. Well, that's interesting logic.

Originally posted by ceci2006
That's why I find "the message" by Messrs. Jackson and Cosby problematic. How can they tell others to achieve when they themselves are problematic figures in their own right?

Aren't we all "problematic" to some degree at some given point Ceci? Are you an angel? Are you sinless, Ceci? Are you the perfect role model?

Originally posted by ceci2006
And how can they tell the Black Community anything if they blame them for their faults.

How? They're famous and they have a voice that can be heard.
Everybody has faults. Don't you agree? Or are you faultless?
They offered nothing but constructive criticism to a community that they felt needed it. Do you really think they'd approach their own community to harm them?
They are trying to help? Why? Because they overcame the system and they want to help others do it too. Why can't you see that? Why do you take it as an insult?

Originally posted by ceci2006
Would you listen to someone telling you how to do things after a tirade of everything you've done wrong?

Well, personally, if I did alot of things "wrong" I guess I'd need someone to show me how it's done right. But that's just me.


[edit on 3-2-2007 by rocknroll]

What if Barney Frank did a speech on the faults of the gay and lesbian community and then gave them "tough love" advice? How would you react? What if the Log Cabin Republicans did a speech naming the faults of the gay and lesbian community and gave similar advice? Again, what would you say to that?

I know, from my gay and lesbian friends, they have different opinons about the speakers as well as the message. And knowing that they have different thoughts, I would hear their various opinions about what has been said.

But never, would I presume to tell them what I think they should do for their own community.


[edit on 3-2-2007 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by ceci2006
What if Barney Frank did a speech on the faults of the gay community and then gave them "tough love" advice? How would you react?

I'd be jumping for joy, baby!
I'm a celibate gay man, who learned his lesson years ago.
I don't do the nasty with men anymore. I could feed you more, but that would totally be derailing this thread. I have found my peace in life through many other things.....God being my main influence. Being gay is not what defines me. It's just a small segment of who I am. My "member" doesn't rule me anymore. My brain does.
I'm not afraid to admit when I'm wrong. It took years to figure it all out, but I did.
I was wrong. I'll send you links to other theads if you want to read my view on this, but it's not gonna happen in this thread....

Nice try though.

Back to the subject.

Originally posted by ceci2006
What if the Log Cabin Republicans did a speech naming the faults of the gay community and gave similar advice? Again, what would you say to that?

I'd say "where can I sign up?"
Seriously. They have faults that personally I think they need to correct.
Do you want a list?
Nah....I promised not to derail.
Back on topic......

No, you're deflecting from the question. It has a lot to do with this topic.

I don't think it would be nice for hetero people to tell you how to live or what you should do with your life.

And from my friends, they would probably balk at what others would tell them what to do. In fact, when we discuss these issues, they tell me all the time what they think about gay, lesbian and trans-gendered leaders in their community. They compare and weigh what has been said. Then, they develop their own thoughts about issues pertaining to them.

I would think that people would have the same respect for the Black community. But from the answers in this thread, I know they don't. They solely have contempt.

If that is the case, why do you think it is so important for other people to force Black people to accept the advice from a charlatan who has done nothing to help his community except to berate them?


[edit on 3-2-2007 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by ceci2006
But never, would I presume to tell them what I think they should do for their own community.

Well, personally, I have the balls and I would.
Self-destructive behavior bugs me.
But again, that's just me.

Well then, it is a difference of personality here.

If I were asked for help or advice by another person, I would in all capacities aid them. But, otherwise, I would never presume to tell other people how to live, what to do with their life and how they should act, especially by force, arrogance and indignance.

I consider that horrible behavior, especially when someone begins to finger-wag about how others ought to be doing things.

And for others to "tell the Black Community" what to do is plainly rude. If they really want to change things, they ought to involve themselves within the community and put their money where their mouth is instead of being an armchair pundit.

I've gone in and helped not only my community, but in many others. I especially worked with the homeless. I'm doing my part to make things better.



[edit on 3-2-2007 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by ceci2006
I don't think it would be nice for hetero people to tell you how to live or what you should do with your life.

But they are allowed their opinion. And in hindsight alot of the advice I got was for my own good and did me no harm. Actually, in many ways it helped considerably.

Originally posted by ceci2006
If that is the case, why do you think it is so important for other people to force Black people to accept the advice from a charlatan who has done nothing to help his community except to berate them?

Berating in the past or now? Is giving advice (what you call berating) a bad thing?
Is it pride that keeps you from admitting a fault? We all have faults.
How long can you hold a grudge, Ceci? Do you believe in forgiveness?
Do you believe there's more to human's than skin color? Do you believe there's more to human's then sexual pleasure? Do you believe we're all children of God? Yes? No? If so, then we need to treat eachother with warmth, not bitterness and resentment.
You only live life once.
I said it before, you reap what you sew. If you don't sew, then suffer for it.
I'm not perfect. I'm full of flaws and I'm the one accountable for them, no one else.

Here we go, back on topic.

Originally posted by ceci2006
But, otherwise, I would never presume to tell other people how to live, what to do with their life and how they should act, especially by force, arrogance and indignance.

If I see someone doing something wrong, then I'll call them on it.
Call it arrogant if you will, I call it friendly advice, because I care.
I'm not into using force though.......I prefer peaceful discourse.

Originally posted by ceci2006
If they really want to change things, they ought to involve themselves within the community and put their money where their mouth is instead of being an armchair pundit.

Sorry, I think words of wisdom are far more valuable than all the money in the world (handout).

Originally posted by ceci2006
I've gone in and helped not only my community, but in many others. I especially worked with the homeless. I'm doing my part to make things better.

Awesome! Seriously, that is super cool. You have my utmost respect in that matter.
I wish I could say the same. You have one up on me there.


[edit on 3-2-2007 by rocknroll]

I believe in forgiveness. But I also believe in respect and civility. And how people bring themselves to have the gall to tell Black people and their community what to do reflects the utmost disrespect afforded.

I honestly believe that the adoption of Mr. Jackson's message has nothing to do with what's good with the Black community. Instead, his words are used as a way to enforce a sense of inferiority that has already been endorsed by systemic discrimination.

And by people presuming that they can tell the Black community anything, reinforces the sense in the dominant culture that Black people can't think or do anything themselves. And as long as this behavior of "telling Black people what to do" continues to be supported, then the same thoughts of inferiority will always stay with those in the dominant culture instead of developing a healthy sense of respect.

You can tell me all day long how good the advice is. But, you will never convince me to be blind to nefarious reasons and disrespect behind the advice, especially when it ignores the larger issues of race-relations and systemic racism in general.

Until people realize that, we will never be able to work on a system of justice that benefits all of us instead of the few.

Originally posted by ceci2006
And how people bring themselves to have the gall to tell Black people and their community what to do reflects the utmost disrespect afforded.

No one race is immune from needing advice from another.
It's not disrespect. It's help. You're just taking it the wrong way because of pride.
Pride is bad. It's one of the seven deadly sins.

Originally posted by ceci2006
Instead, his words are used as a way to enforce a sense of inferiority that has already been endorsed by systemic discrimination.

I don't see this at all. If you're feeling inferior, only you can change that.

Originally posted by ceci2006
And by people presuming that they can tell the Black community anything, reinforces the sense in the dominant culture that Black people can't think or do anything themselves.

Not at all. Everyone knows it's a screwed up system.
I know too many blacks who can think and do for themselves. I know this isn't true.

Originally posted by ceci2006
And as long as this behavior of "telling Black people what to do" continues to be supported, then the same thoughts of inferiority will always stay with those in the dominant culture instead of developing a healthy sense of respect.

Not at all. The "dominant culture" is thinking more along the lines of "when will you guys stop holding a grudge, what else can we do?"

Originally posted by ceci2006
Until people realize that, we will never be able to work on a system of justice that benefits all of us instead of the few.

That'll never happen. No matter what color you are.
We will never have a system of justice as long as racial lines are drawn.
And there's plenty of drawing going on.

Believe me, it's not a grudge that I have. It's a sense of awareness and respect for other people. Pride is a great thing, if it is used for the right reasons.

But, by all due respect, this matter just has to do with the perception of race within a system sponsoring institutional racism, sexism and classism.

Until people understand that and realize what the three of us has been saying throughout this thread, then all of you might see why myself, HH and truthseeka think the way we do.

For myself, this is not about blaming the white man. Nor, is it about asking for what society "owes" me.

It is having a critical analysis of the message for what it stands for. And I truly think that "the message" does more harm than good, especially when it blames a group of people caught up by forces not of their own making.

You can have all the personal accountability in the world. But what good will it do you if society is still racist and works against your advancement? Furthermore, what good will it do you if there are still those who think your people do not measure up and say so in your face day in and day out?

It is amazing to me how the dominant culture can tell blacks what to do without even recognizing what is wrong with the system at large. In this capacity too, they can say that the message is "good advice". But if Blacks capitulate and say that "it is good advice", try to work on their "mistakes" and still come up against a system of injustice, what other advice will people have, especially if they refuse to acknowledge that there is institutional racism, let alone not work for its demise?

You see, there's a larger problem at work. The dominant culture has to realize they have to come to grips with the aspects of race in society before they can pressure another group of people to endorse a particular dogma. If the dominant culture continues to work toward keeping a system of privilege that only benefits them, how do you really think others who are non-white can truly benefit in a society not of their making?


[edit on 3-2-2007 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by ceci2006
Pride is a great thing, if it is used for the right reasons.

Pride has also been the downfall of many a man.

Originally posted by ceci2006
But, by all due respect, this matter just has to do with the perception of race within a system sponsoring institutional racism, sexism and classism.

And the only way to overcome it is to rise above it.
Every human has that chance.

Originally posted by ceci2006
Until people understand that and realize what the three of us has been saying throughout this thread, then all of you might see why myself, HH and truthseeka think the way we do.

I realize what you guys are saying. I wish I could change you're attitude though, no offense, but I think you'd enjoy life more.

Originally posted by ceci2006
or myself, this is not about blaming the white man. Nor, is it about asking for what society "owes" me.

Originally posted by ceci2006
And I truly think that "the message" does more harm than good, especially when it blames a group of people caught up by forces not of their own making.

That "making" is changing. Is it not?
We live in the present, not the past. We can't rewrite history

Originally posted by ceci2006
But what good will it do you if society is still racist and works against your advancement?

Ceci, you're smart and eloquent. You have the power to advance. I can see that in your writing. You're a little militant, but you're a powerful black female, with a voice to be reckoned with. You can advance, Ceci! You have it in you. You have to believe.
Let no one hold you back.

Originally posted by ceci2006
Furthermore, what good will it do you if there are still people who think your people do not measure up and say so in your face day in and day out?

Learn to take care of number one first.
Ignore what other people say. They don't live your life.
YOU HAVE THE ABILITY TO SUCCEED! Be wealthy! Be successful!
Go for your dreams and don't stop.

Originally posted by ceci2006
It is amazing to me how white people can tell blacks what to do without even recognizing what is wrong with the system at large.

We know the system is screwed. It's stacked against anyone that isn't filthy rich.
But filthy rich and be financially secure are 2 different things.

Originally posted by ceci2006
But if Blacks capitulate and say that "it is good advice", try to work on their "mistakes" and still come up against a system of injustice, what other advice will people have, especially if they refuse to acknowledge that there is institutional racism?

Keep fighting and don't give up. Lot's of people have it bad. Not just black folk.

Originally posted by ceci2006
White people have to realize they have to clean their own house and come to grips with the aspects of race in society before they can pressure another group of people to endorse a particular dogma.

The flawed among us are still capable of giving advice. None of us are pefect.
Advice is advice is advice. Nothing more, nothing less. Stop reading into it.

Originally posted by ceci2006
White people have done their share of "whining" and "blaming" due to the emergance of a multi-cultural society. If they continue to work toward keeping a system of privilege that only benefits them, how do you really think others who are non-white can truly benefit in a society not of their making?

Seems to me there are lot's of groups making sure everyone benefits nowadays.
Black society has come along way. All the big sports heroes are black now (it use to be white back in the 1960's, remember?). Every TV show has black characters now. Every news team has black anchors. The movies are full of black comedians, action stars, pretty leading ladies. America's cable channels have Black, Spanish, Chinese, Korean, etc TV programs.........I mean it wasn't like this years ago. It is changing, obviously not fast enough.

It's always been a fact that the majority rules (no matter who or where they are) and you're dealing with a predominantly white country (am I off here?). The masses are catered to based on demographics. If things appear disproportional than you need to take into account that 85% of the country is white (I don't know the exact figure). If Blacks had made up 85% of this country the demographic would favor the blacks. Things would be reversed.

Unfortunately, the minority always has the last say, but that's how majority/minority has worked throughout history no matter what races are involved. Laws are being written to change that, but unfortunately it takes man awhile to catch up to that mentality.

This is an article written by Lorenzo Ervin about why there are two different views of the same problem. I tend to think that this article explains quite a lot about some of the answers in this thread:

It's Racism Stupid!

I think that many white people just don't understand just how serious this matter is, nor how racism really plays out in the lives of Black people, in relationship to authority and the state. Black people have been shot and killed because of racial profiling and other forms of racial harassment. They are in prison in massive numbers because of the low quality of life and lack of decent employment in this country. Black babies die from infant mortality at 3rd world levels, because of the lack of proper nourishment. Further, these Black people are forced to live in racial and economic ghettos, within which many die or suffer from preventable diseases for years. Their communities are impoverished and underdeveloped due to conscious denial of community development funding by the government. In other words, they are an oppressed people, not just individuals harassed because of their clothing, the way they talk or dress, although there is no question these things can play a part in an individual case.

But, racism and police brutality go much deeper than the surface appearance of Black people. The fact that it is the government itself which protects these racist cops, even when they commit the most horrendous murders should tell us all something, that and the fact that disproportionate numbers of Black people are the ones being killed, not white men with beards, wearing tie-dyed shirts, or pony-tails. It just ain't the same, my friend! We are not talking about personal prejudice by some dumb white guy who just doesn't "like" Black people, but systematic racism by the state, national oppression, as some social scientists call it, even "internal colonialism" by others. Hey, the cop himself does not act as an individual, but rather as an agent of the state, a hired gun. Now everyone claims to understand this intellectually, but Black people are being brutalized in the real world, not in theory.

In a country with a history of racial genocide, racial slavery, and other forms of racialized oppression, it is chauvinism and political opportunism of the worst sort to call for peoples of color to blindly follow behind some corrupt white dominated political or social movement to liberate themselves [...]They have a White, middle class understanding of this race and class oppression as mere "prejudice", and see the problem as a simple matter of making "those Blacks" see that they should just "follow us". This idea of the "white working class hero" is really dangerous and delusional, sliding into racism itself.

Here is one more article that might help articulate why there is a difference in opinon when interpreting Mr. Jackson's message. This is a very profound article by Alex Weissman. I believe these sections highlight the lack of understanding in regards to institutional racism. This article is from Tufts University:

White people and racism

Then, there is a slightly subtler form of racism that prevents people from going to the Africana Center. This form of racism manifests itself in the notion that white people have no need to concern themselves with black issues or race issues in general. While they may know that they are white, they do not think about what this means. To be white is not to be race-neutral; it is to be privileged. I cannot list the number of privileges that I and other white people get because of our skin color, but the one I am most concerned with right now is the privilege not to think about race or racism.

While this is a privilege, it is also a terrible detriment. Not to know about race or racism is not to understand our country. Not to understand where our nation comes from nor where our nation is now, nor even where Tufts comes from and where Tufts stands now. White people do not go to the Africana Center, or any of the other culture centers, because they do not view issues relevant to people of color as relevant to their own lives. This is an absurdly ignorant and self-centered belief. Even if we forgot about the innumerable ways in which race impacts the lives of white people, just for a second, there would still be the infinite ways in which the lives of people of color are greatly affected by racism.

[...]

Now, let that moment end when we forgot that racism affected white people, because racism does affect white people. The system of racism that has developed in our country is one that systematically privileges white people consistently. I've heard many white students pride themselves on the fact they got into Tufts without the "unfair advantage" granted by affirmative action policies to students of color. That is utter nonsense. I got into Tufts because I am white. That is not the only reason I got into Tufts, but it is a very significant one that I cannot, and should not, forget.

[edit on 3-2-2007 by ceci2006]

You have voted rocknroll for the Way Above Top Secret award.
You have two more votes this month.

There is a lot of blah blah blah and deflection going on with this subject .. but the basic words of the HUD Secretary are still true. ALL people need to take responsibility for their own personal decisions. Take personal responsibility for your children when you procreate them. Take responsibility for decisions that are within your area of ability to do so. Take care of your children. Do not do drugs. These things will not change the entire world and instantly make everything alright, but by making wise personal decisions the situation will not be exasperated.

And as far as 'white people mind your own business' ... bah!

The fact that 70% of black children are born into single parent households may be a 'black issue', but it becomes an AMERICAN issue when our tax money has to help support those children due to the fact that their fathers abandoned them and the mother can't support them by herself.

It effects me. It becomes my issue. It becomes an AMERICAN issue.



[edit on 2/3/2007 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by ceci2006
And for others to "tell the Black Community" what to do is plainly rude.

And what about when the black community tells these "others" what to do? What's that called? Rude?

Because in the very next sentence, you turn around and that's EXACTLY what you do!

Originally posted by ceci2006
If they really want to change things, they ought to involve themselves within the community and put their money where their mouth is instead of being an armchair pundit.

When a white person does it, it's rude, but when a black person does it, it's ok. These are the double standards I talked about earlier that, of course, never got addressed.

This is one census report about out of wed-lock births to white women and highlights the behaviors of white people in general:

Tim Wise and Molly Secours: Chavez tends to overlook bad behavior by white folks

Or consider drug and alcohol use. According to the National Institute on Drug Abuse and the Centers for Disease Control, white youth have higher rates of drug use than blacks for all drug categories. Whites in grades 8-12 are four times more likely to have used coc aine in the past month, and white seniors are 73% more likely than black seniors to smoke pot daily.

As for booze, whites aged 12-17 are nearly twice as likely as similar blacks to drink, and six times more likely to binge drink regularly. Among persons 18-25, whites are nearly twice as likely as blacks to binge drink, and more than three times as likely to do so regularly. Whites are also far more likely than blacks to drive drunk, according to available data: a behavior implicated in thousands of annual deaths.

So when will Tim Chavez call for the majority to ''take responsibility'' for our dysfunctional behaviors?

Even Chavez's position on out-of-wedlock births rests on inaccurate assumptions. Contrary to popular belief, increases in the rate of out-of-wedlock births among blacks have had nothing to do with increases in irresponsible sexual behavior by black women or their male partners. Fact is, fertility rates among unmarried black women have fallen to their lowest point in over 40 years, but because birthrates among married black couples have fallen much faster, the share of out-of-wedlock babies in the black community, as a share of all babies born, has risen.

Interestingly, according to the Brookings Institute, between the 1960s and the late 1980s, the average size of families headed by unmarried white women dramatically increased, while the average size of families headed by unmarried black women actually fell.

No wonder some are so responsive to Alphonso Jackson's message.


[edit on 3-2-2007 by ceci2006]

I read your comments, BH. I'll answer you a little later in the day. I'd like to think about what you said so I can answer appropriately.

[edit on 3-2-2007 by ceci2006]