HUD Secretary Speaks Against Black Victimhood

Originally posted by ceci2006
What does everyone think about this? Do you think that this vignette might point to the semantic disconnect that is happening?

Semantic disconnect? Doubtful. I think that with their only panel representative being a lesbian they were probably scared s***less to say anything. They probably just sat there and smiled and nodded their heads, feeling outnumbered.

And before anyone takes this as an anti-gay comment, forget it. Not at all what I meant.

Originally posted by jsobecky
But we're human beings, and our emotions are going to surface one way or another. And that's healthy.

I have to disagree. I thought emotions were for BTS.

Jso, if I said what I wanted to say to you, we would not be speaking right now. Some of the stuff you say is extremely offensive to me. I believe that you knew it would be offensive to some people when you wrote it. I don't think you cared. That's just what I think.

However, for the sake of expediency, I push my feelings to the side, sift through your posts, and answer your questions. It takes a lot of will- power.

It all depends on what you expect from the conversation.

If you're just here to let your opinion be known, and defend it, it's okay to be mean because you kinda expected an argument anyway.

If you're really here to tackle the hard questions and get to the bottom of things, you need to work to keep the conversation amicable. Emotions just get in the way when it comes to figuring something out.

Originally posted by HarlemHottie

Originally posted by jsobecky
But we're human beings, and our emotions are going to surface one way or another. And that's healthy.

I have to disagree. I thought emotions were for BTS.

Jso, if I said what I wanted to say to you, we would not be speaking right now. Some of the stuff you say is extremely offensive to me. I believe that you knew it would be offensive to some people when you wrote it. I don't think you cared. That's just what I think.

I've known that for a long time, HH. I'm your worst nightmare, because I don't pull punches or walk on eggs like BH does, bless her for her patience.

I'm going to drag it right out in the open, away from "scholarly research" and "antiseptic non-emotional talk". I'm going to push it into your face until you face it. Don't like it? Don't respond.

You, ceci, and others think I'm a racist because I say what I think, and you hear what you want. I don't atomatically don the yoke of white guilt that you want me to wear.Too bad for you. You want a nice white boy to stroke your ego? Go somewhere else. You want to talk about what's real? I'm ready.

Originally posted by jsobecky
I'm your worst nightmare,

You're flattering yourself, really. I actually find BH to be more of a challenge because she manages to restrain herself and to talk about a sensitive topic without being offensive. She also produces sources, a huge component of properly defending any argument.

away from "scholarly research"

Honey, that's the point of ATS.

What's this type of 'gut-reaction' called again? Oh yeah!

1. truthiness (noun)
1 : "truth that comes from the gut, not books" (Stephen Colbert, Comedy Central's "The Colbert Report," October 2005)
2 : "the quality of preferring concepts or facts one wishes to be true, rather than concepts or facts known to be true" (American Dialect Society, January 2006)
www.m-w.com...

edit to add link

edit to add: I noticed that you avoided the question jso... very sneaky of you. The question was: Why are you here? To shout your opinion? Or to try to solve some problems?


[edit on 1-2-2007 by HarlemHottie]

Originally posted by HarlemHottie

Originally posted by jsobecky
I'm your worst nightmare,

You're flattering yourself, really. I actually find BH to be more of a challenge because she manages to restrain herself and to talk about a sensitive topic without being offensive. She also produces sources, a huge component of properly defending any argument.

Can't say I blame you for sticking with the known, the expected, the secure. Much less dangerous, and much more comforting to think you're accomplishing something when all you're doing is looking for affirmation.

You gotta get out of Harlem and move to Suburbia. You'd fit right in.

Originally quoted by jsobecky

Semantic disconnect? Doubtful. I think that with their only panel representative being a lesbian they were probably scared s***less to say anything. They probably just sat there and smiled and nodded their heads, feeling outnumbered.

This is a perfect example of semantic disconnect. The author of the article described above was a white woman. She was able to write in her article why she felt no other whites talked. Jsobecky, as a white male, thought the white people posed in the article were "outnumbered".

Myself, being a Black female, agrees with the author. There is a repression that takes place with some groups when it comes to race. And the white people in this conference were probably there to observe, but felt rather uncomfortable discussing race. It's not so much about the fear; to me, it is all about not being able to find the language to articulate how they felt. I'm sure each white individual knew how they quietly felt; but the uneasiness creeps in until they probably meet at a forum like this and find a thread that is formed in a rant. Then, the comfortability factor comes back up. They let their feelings fly because their words would be accepted and even condoned in an atmosphere of like-minded individuals. In that atmosphere, they would be able to discuss how "colorblind" they are; how they don't "understand" other races; and reinforce the same type of thinking that always happens when other races aren't in the room.

But, on several occasions, I've been surprised. There are times there are people who actually get it and try to have a honest discussion. They are able to articulate themselves and their feelings concerning race. They'd feel sympathetic to how other races might feel. And then, they would be confronted by those who are not so secure about race. The unsecure would shout down the "secure". And the "unsecure" ones adopting a "race doesn't happen", "I don't see color" attitude wins.

But these are only my perceptions. And what to take from this exercise is that people can view different things in the same events. However, it takes a bit of humility to wonder and walk in another's shoes. But some people do not even try.

Instead, they are stuck with the same message of being cruel, especially when ridiculing the other's perception viciously.

Studies seem to set everyone on the same basis by providing ground rules. Once those rules have been established, then people can bring in their own deviations in whether the case has been proven true or not...that is if people could bring themselves to listen to the evidence and not openly discount it because they feel that "their way" is better.

You'd be amazed what a description of a panel meeting can really teach.

However, I realize that because I read the scene of the panel meeting differently, I expect to catch hell. It always happens, every thread without fail.



[edit on 1-2-2007 by ceci2006]

Jso, why are you following me from thread to thread, posting about my personality?

What a stalker!

OK, BH, I see what you're saying.

But, what are you supposed to do when all you have is basically NOTHING? (in the most extreme cases of poverty in the US)

But, I do agree with what you're saying about trying to make something of yourself. The problem is that you go through a lot of emotional trauma as you try to do your best, yet REPEATEDLY see institutional racism hindering your progress.

Let's face it, ALL American youth can have negative experiences in their lifes that are mostly their fault, but NOT ALL American youth can overcome this. Compare a white kid and a black kid who are doing drugs and hanging with the wrong people, which leads them to doing a criminal act.

The white kid is HIGHLY more likely to have the judge say, "you better straighten up, son, you're headed down the wrong path. Let's sweep this little incident under the rug." The black kid, on the other hand, is going to get an intro to the US penal system.

I know a number of people, of both races, who have had this happen. Guess who has SEVEN cases, four of which are dope cases. Guess who was caught with FIFTEEEN crack rocks and got probation? Now guess who is doing 5 years for the SAME OFFENSE, but with less crack coc aine.

I agree that the system won't change anytime soon, especially now that prisons are big business. However, I disagree that the average kid in the hood can just try hard and get out. And, for those who DO make it out, you are STILL in a racist system.

Originally posted by jsobecky
I've known that for a long time, HH. I'm your worst nightmare, because I don't pull punches or walk on eggs like BH does, bless her for her patience.

I'm going to drag it right out in the open, away from "scholarly research" and "antiseptic non-emotional talk". I'm going to push it into your face until you face it. Don't like it? Don't respond.

You, ceci, and others think I'm a racist because I say what I think, and you hear what you want. I don't atomatically don the yoke of white guilt that you want me to wear.Too bad for you. You want a nice white boy to stroke your ego? Go somewhere else. You want to talk about what's real? I'm ready.

Taurus feces.

I don't mean to speak for you, HH, but I don't think YOU are anything close to her worst nightmare. You don't even make sense in your posts, so how is she worried about you?

And, real talk? ROFLMMFAO! Strangely, your comments aren't as lame as they are far from real. But, feel free to hide behind your mask; just don't say you are about real talk.

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
Jso, why are you following me from thread to thread, ...

He found out that you are secretly Angelina Jolie, and considering how lovely you are Angelina, he just can't help himself. (man.. that's a gooooood chat room rumor to get going! )

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
Jso, why are you following me from thread to thread, ...

He found out that you are secretly Angelina Jolie, and considering how lovely you are Angelina, he just can't help himself.

(man.. that's a gooooood chat room rumor to get going!

)

Not really. That's a pretty weak rumor to get going. A stupid one, too.

Originally posted by truthseeka
Not really. That's a pretty weak rumor to get going. A stupid one, too.

HH understand what I'm talking about.

She and I had this conversation before, that's why I winked at her.
Someone on ATS was saying that something big was going to be uncovered soon about an ATS member. We were all joking around trying to figure out what it was going to be. We came up with a funny story that HH was really Angelina Jolie in disguise.

It turned out that the 'big' story was that someone who claimed to have UFO info was really not who they claimed to be. It was a major 'nothing'.

edited for spelling


[edit on 2/1/2007 by FlyersFan]

truthseeka, FF told you the truth. There was this guy in chat really amp'ing up some big secret, so we were all quiet, and shushing newcomers, but it took him so long to type, he had just gotten out 'someone is not who they seem,' and the whole 'HH is Angelina' thing started.

I think you're right, FF. Jso must have heard the rumor and took it to heart.

Ah, gotcha.

Well, my fault for that one, FF.

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
truthseeka, FF told you the truth. There was this guy in chat really amp'ing up some big secret, so we were all quiet, and shushing newcomers, but it took him so long to type, he had just gotten out 'someone is not who they seem,' and the whole 'HH is Angelina' thing started.

I think you're right, FF. Jso must have heard the rumor and took it to heart.

Yeah, go ahead and laugh, you..you.. you women! How were we guys supposed to know it was only a rumor?

I'm not stalking you, HH. Dot. Now you're offf my radar for reasons I mentioned before. But I loved you in Gia.

Originally posted by truthseeka
Taurus feces.

I don't mean to speak for you, HH, but I don't think YOU are anything close to her worst nightmare.

You don't even make sense in your posts, so how is she worried about you?

And, real talk? ROFLMMFAO! Strangely, your comments aren't as lame as they are far from real. But, feel free to hide behind your mask; just don't say you are about real talk.

Well, look who's back. What happened to "I will neither read your responses to my post nor comment on them." Was your eyebrow arched and your pinky extended when you said that?

Anyway, what do you want? To debate? Or are you just looking for some debating ammo to take to school where you play the angry young black man? I'm gonna have to start charging you for those good grades you get due to using my wisdom as a source.

Originally posted by truthseeka
But, what are you supposed to do when all you have is basically NOTHING? (in the most extreme cases of poverty in the US)

You're asking me how to solve the poverty problem in the US? What makes you think I have the answer? Do you think I know what to do about it? I feel terrible for the poor and homeless. I've been one! I know what I did to get off the streets, but I certainly don't have the education nor experience to tell poor people what to do.

The problem is that you go through a lot of emotional trauma as you try to do your best, yet REPEATEDLY see institutional racism hindering your progress.

Honey, I can only imagine. And I'm so sorry for you if that's what you experience. Sometimes life is an uphill battle for sure.

The white kid is HIGHLY more likely to have the judge say, "you better straighten up, son, you're headed down the wrong path. Let's sweep this little incident under the rug." The black kid, on the other hand, is going to get an intro to the US penal system.

So, you're saying that once a kid commits a crime, he gets treated better because he's white. What I'm saying is don't commit the crime in the first place. That's where the ball's in your court. That's what you DO have control over.

That's all I'm saying. Take control of what you DO have control over.

Now guess who is doing 5 years for the SAME OFFENSE, but with less crack coc aine.

You're not making a very good case to me by trying to get sympathy for some kid who's selling crack... You can compare white to black all your life (and I suspect you will) or you can separate the two and ask yourself what your friend's doing selling dope -- and hold him accountable to make the decision to do otherwise. He chose to do something illegal. He's going to pay a price. No, it's not the same as the white boy's price and that's not fair.

But this country isn't at a place yet where that's happening. You're acting like racism should be gone now and it isn't. I wish! This country is still in transition. I'm sorry about that but that's the reality in front of our faces NOW. It's the reality we have to deal with NOW. I'm not saying to accept it, not by any means. I don't. But there are things you (and your friend) can do. Like stay out of trouble. Finish school. Get an education so you CAN become someone. Maybe a politician or a philanthropist or a business owner so you can help out the people that YOU deem need and deserve your help.

Crying about inequality (which is a reality) and pointing the finger doesn't help the cause one bit.

I agree that the system won't change anytime soon..

It's not going to be a big change like one day you're going to wake up and *bam* racism will be a thing of the past. It's going to move like it has in the past 40 years. Slow and steady. Every year, new people are 'getting out' and lending a hand to their fellow man. The first black this and the first black that. We could be looking at the first black president (if you consider him black and if he happens to win) It's a slow process, but that's how change happens.

I know you're even more eager for that change to happen than I am. But I think the things you hold in your mind either contribute to change or maintain the status quo. Just something to think about.

However, I disagree that the average kid in the hood can just try hard and get out. And, for those who DO make it out, you are STILL in a racist system.

I don't know a damn thing about the average kid in the hood, sweetheart. So I know I didn't say that he can just try hard and make it out. And yes, even if he does, the system is still racist and will be for quite some time. You're living in the transition and what you do, how you conduct your life, will make a contribution to determine how much the generations coming after you have to deal with.

And that's what I'm saying. You can get an education and do the right thing to promote the end of racism, or you can follow the path your friend has chosen.

Now I don't mean to imply that you and your friend are the only 2 factors. Far from it. But you do have some power there. Use it! Use every bit you can grasp. I'll do my part, too, and I do. But I can't change the way the people in the system view the 'hood kids if they keep making choices to sell drugs.



[edit on 1-2-2007 by Benevolent Heretic]

Well, BH, I'm all ears. What is the right way to speak against racism (as you were mentioning to truthseeka)? I am curious. I would like to listen.

[edit on 1-2-2007 by ceci2006]

Originally quoted by Benevolent Heretic

Crying about inequality (which is really the case) and pointing the finger doesn't help the cause one bit.

This phrase also intrigued me. Why is discussing inequality always seen as "whining" and "crying"? I am curious about this. This is especially what I mean with different groups of people seeing different things in the same message.

It's not enough that inequality exists. It's about telling the story so it stays in the mind of the public. As long as the public considers it, then we have a continuing education. But I feel there is a movement at work to "deny" everything because it is less painful. With messages like Mr. Jackson's, these words only are meant to soothe the "uncomfortable" and the "frustrated" when it comes to talking about race.

To me, talking about inequality makes others aware of the injustices that are taking place. And with injustice, isn't it logical that someone is always to blame?

That is why I wonder whether speeches like Mr. Jackson's are perceived by white people (yes, I said it) as a way to assuage the guilt instead of discussing issues of justice. It's not so much the fact that his message appears good to some folk; it is the fact of the "acceptance" of others' opinions who feel that his message is condescending.

I believe that people practice "selective hearing" so they don't have to "accept" another's comments. If "acceptance" were to happen, then they would have to deal with something that is highly uncomfortable. Instead--according to my perception--it is best to "speak for" another group of people because that is the "accepted" form of discussing race in some circles.

I think that until people get over the "accepted form" of discussing race and allow themselves to engage on simply "listening", then perhaps the conversations might change.

But, people do not allow themselves to get hurt. By putting up a protective shield, they can deflect the messages that are uncomfortable to them.

Perhaps this is what the thread is all about: uncomfortability of the message and the perception that people see various things in the same message.



[edit on 1-2-2007 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by BH
So, you're saying that once a kid commits a crime, he gets treated better because he's white. What I'm saying is don't commit the crime in the first place. That's where the ball's in your court. That's what you DO have control over.

Can't argue with that, no way, no how.