HUD Secretary Speaks Against Black Victimhood

Originally posted by ceci2006
This is one census report about out of wed-lock births to white women and highlights the behaviors of white people in general: No wonder some are so responsive to Alphonso Jackson's message.

I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about or why you posted that.

ON TOPIC -

The HUD Secretary gave good advice. We ALL should be following it. We all should take personal responsibility for the decisions we make.

www.childtrendsdatabank.org...

~ %70 percent of black children are born out of wedlock.
~ %25 percent of white children are born out of wedlock.

When people make bad personal decisions that result in our tax money having to go to support their mistakes, it effects all of us tax payers.

It's a very simple message to help us not to exasperate difficult situations and to help us not create new difficult situations.

No blah blah blah needed - very simple.
Don't blame others when you make bad personal choices.

ONE spelling edit


[edit on 2/3/2007 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
I have to wonder how you can dismiss its effects and repercussions.

Sorry. You're going to have to go into more detail here. I'm not sure where I've dismissed discrimination's effects and repercussions.

The problem is the unequal enforcement of the laws that I think you acknowledge.

This is my opinion: I at least acknowledge unequal treatment. I'm not sure where it comes down. In enforcement or just treatment after the arrest. I don't know that cops are letting white kids walk away from crimes while arresting black kids for the same thing. And if a black person fights arrest, I believe that they're more likely to become a victim of police brutality. I also do acknowledge that black kids are (generally) probably punished harder.

I want it to be clear that this is my opinion, because I haven't looked at any sources on these statistics.

... the fault belongs to the public defense system (not sure what it's called, but, you know: legal aid).

I suppose you could be right. I have no experience in that area and have never considered it to be the source of the problem. But it certainly could be.

Instead of defending their clients, they tend to railroad poor minorities into 'pleading out,' basically taking for granted that their guilty. (I have examples, with sources, if you want them.)

I'm sure that you can show that minorities plead to lesser charges. Whether they do it more than white kids or not is another issue. And it's THE issue really. Because showing that black kids plead X percentage of the time, even if it's high, doesnt really prove the case.

After all, in many cases and in general terms, AND depending on the judge, a white kid can be cleaned up and sat in front of a judge and fool the judge into thinking he's really sorry and won't do it again. A black kid, no matter how nice the suit cannot hide the fact that he's black. And if the judge is a racist the kid's race will definitely affect his opinion.

But this is a case of individual racism. It depends on the views of the judge. And it's not lost on me that most of us probably pictured a white judge.

I can't say if they treat their poor white clients the same.

Then we can't really know, can we? Why don't you post your sources after all (at least links) and I'll see what I can find. Because I can also picture the legal defense telling the white juvenile to plead. It's less work for them and you never know which way the judge is going to lean. In fact, it might be a black judge.

That's why it's important for black people to get into these positions, in my opinion. That's why it's important for them to stay in school and be successful. That's the whole impetus behind my agreeing with the Cosby message. It's certainly not for me. And it's certaily not because I get off on telling the black community how to behave...

This is from a report published in the New York Times in 1998 talking about out of wedlock births trends for Black women:

Birth Rate Falls to 40-Year Low Among Unwed Black Women

The birth rate for unmarried black women, long a focal point in the debate over the causes of poverty among African-Americans, has reached its lowest point in 40 years, Federal health officials said today.

According to figures compiled by the National Center for Health Statistics, there were 74.4 births per 1,000 unmarried black women in 1996 -- the last year for which complete data are available. That rate is significantly below the peak of 90.7 per 1,000 unmarried black women reached in 1989.

Today's report showed that the out-of-wedlock birth rate has been dropping for all age groups of black women. Demographers and health officials said that some of the possible reasons -- an increase in contraceptive use, sex education and efforts by some community groups to encourage abstention -- should allow the trend to continue.

''There's just been no letup, and it's not been slowing down,'' said Stephanie J. Ventura, a demographer with the National Center for Health Statistics who wrote the report. ''And it's not just for teen-agers. For all black women under 30, the declines have been really big.''

This is reported by the Center of Disease Control in 2002:

Teen Birth Rate Continues to Decline; African-American Teens Show Sharpest Drop

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) today released the annual detailed report on birth statistics for the Nation, which shows a continued decline in the teenage birth rate with the sharpest drop in births for African-American teens.

"Births: Final Data for 2002," from CDC�s National Center for Health Statistics shows that the teen birth rate declined by 30 percent over the past decade to a historic low and that the rate for black teens was down by more than 40 percent. For young black teens (15 to 17 years) the results were even more striking�the rate was cut in half since 1991.

This is from the CDC in 2005:

New Report Shows Teen Births Drop To Lowest Level Ever

The decline was especially pronounced for non-Hispanic black teenagers 15-17 � the birth rate for this group fell 6 percent in 2005 compared with 2004 and 59 percent since 1991. In total, there were 421,123 births to females under age 20 in 2005.

The decline in teenage childbearing has been documented across all race and ethnic populations, but most impressive has been the decline in these rates for non-Hispanic black teenagers,said Brady Hamilton, a researcher at CDC�s National Center for Health Statistics and lead author of the report.

Just for everyone's information.

Declines in out-of-wedlock births are great. These stats still remain -

~ %70 percent of black children are born out of wedlock.
~ %25 percent of white children are born out of wedlock.

The point is ..

How is it the fault of any black American that the personal decisions used by some whites mean a 25% out of wedlock birth rate? It's not the fault of any black person for the personal decisions of those white people.

How is it the fault of any white American that the personal decisions used by some blacks mean a 70% of ouf wedlock birth rate? It's not the fault of any white person for the personal decisions of those black people.

Personal responsibility. It's NO ONE ELSE's fault that those people, no matter their skin color, made bad decisions and abandoned children. The fault is with those people alone.

Ceci and HH aren't to blame when white youths make the bad decision to do drugs and trash a school.

BH and JSO aren't to blame when black youths make the bad decision to make a baby and abandon it.

Personal responsibility. No one is to blame except the person making the bad decision.

As regards white drug use vs. black drug use and white out-of-wedlock births vs. black out-of-wedlock births, I'd like to say this.

I have no moral judgment against either drug use or out-of-wedlock births. I consider them an individual choice.

However, we have the black community struggling to "get out from under" and claiming that they don't have the power to do that themselves. We basically have the black community fighting against the message of "personal responsibility" given by Cosby et al. and calling out the white community as the ones who are keeping them down.

There are no such claims by the white community made toward the black community.

Every individual should make their own choice when it comes to their lives, whether it be drug use, having children, graduating from high school or stealing a car. And each individual is responsible for the choices they make. But if you (regardless of race) make a choice that results in what you consider a "bad" outcome in these or other life decisions (like pregnancy or jail), own up to it. And don't blame someone else for the outcome of your choice.

If white students are using more drugs and having more out-of-wedlock births (I couldn't find the raw date they used for their claims), they're NOT blaming the black community for it. They're NOT even blaming "the system". They're not saying "If only the black people would be different, we wouldn't be having these problems."

That's the difference.

Edit: I just saw FF's post. How very succinct compared to my babbling!

[edit on 3-2-2007 by Benevolent Heretic]

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I just saw FF's post.

How very succinct compared to my babbling!

You don't babble. Actually, I just saw how many points you have and I was wondering how on earth someone could possibly spend more than half a million points! I have spent perhaps 7 or 8 thousand, but what could you do with half a million!?!

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

If white students are using more drugs and having more out-of-wedlock births (I couldn't find the raw date they used for their claims), they're NOT blaming the black community for it. They're NOT even blaming "the system". They're not saying "If only the black people would be different, we wouldn't be having these problems."

No, they are refuting the age old claim that only Black people are the sole persons who have these behaviors. In fact, the claims made against Black women--in the capacity of "having babies" are often inflated to induce a panic in dominant culture.

I wonder if you really understand the vitriol behind such statements as "Black people should stop blaming the white man", or "Black people should take responsiblity", or "They keep on having babies.". Even "I don't want my tax dollars going to those welfare queens."

Lest, one should forget the Willie Horton ads, publicizing black crime as a menace on the American nation at large.

If that wasn't blame against the black community, I don't know what is.


Furthermore, one tends to forget (especially on here) the repeated claims from some whites that all blacks do is to "whine" and "complain". Not to mention, how white folks blame blacks over affirmative action. That is also a indicative of the blame.

I have read on this board many times posts from some white members who complain that they can't "get into college" or "get a job" because of affirmative action. I've also read of white people asking "why can't they have the Caucasian College Fund". With precise precision there is a thread every week complaining about these issues with the same old tired rhetoric. Although white women are the highest beneficiaries of Affirmative Action, white posters tend to blame Black people for "taking advantage of the system".

I don't know how you could be so blind to miss these things.

That's what I mean about two different races seeing two different things. Semantic disconnect is not something that is taken out of the air. My source, "It's Racism, Stupid.", shows that Whites have a different view about race relations and often ignore the things their Black counterparts try to tell them.

That's why I posted the sources about white "bad behaviors" and black "bad behaviors".

It's certainly not for me. And it's certaily not because I get off on telling the black community how to behave...

Really?

Could have fooled me.


[edit on 3-2-2007 by ceci2006]

I keep seeing people bring up this "out-of-wedlock" birth thing, and now I'll respond.

IMO, the big deal about "out-of-wedlock" is manufactured, seeing as how HALF of all marriages in America now end in divorce. But, that's not my point.

My point is this; the single-parent issue in black America is ultimately the fault of white America! There, I said it. And it's true.

I'm sure the white posters will have a field day with this, but do y'all actually consider the true ramifications and legacy of slavery in America? Probably not.

Here it is. When Europeans brought Africans to America as slaves, they had an interesting system of control. They would take the biggest, strongest, smartest African of the group (as this would be the obvious leader), gather all the women and children around, and beat the holy spit out of him.

Then, they would tell the women something like this: "Your men are out of control. If you don't want us beating them all the time, you better control your boys and make sure they stay in line." (Of course, everyone still got beatings...)

Now, this did two things. One, it subjugated the only members of the new slave community who posed a threat to the slavers, the men. Two, it helped build the image of "Mammie;" you know, the big black woman beating up the boys with a rolling pin when they got in trouble. (this was probably quite funny to white people in the early 20th century, when the media was full of caricatures of us as barely human buffoons with a penchant for watermelon ).

And, unfortunately, it also contributed to the present image of the strong black woman (but don't forget that many African societies were matriarchal, so the strong black woman is not solely a product of slavery). The black man was only a sperm donor to the black family.

This is NOT what was happening in West African society at the time of the Trans-Atlantic slave trade. Family is very important in African society; Akon, a recording artist from Africa, commented on the difference in family values in Africa and America. So, basically, the white slavers did indeed destroy the black family.

Marriages between slaves were not honored by the slavers. Africans from different ethnic groups and countries were mixed and matched to reduce the chances of revolt. The children of slaves were more the property of the slavers than the progeny of the slaves. All familial customs were destroyed.

But yeah, it is easier to point a finger at the single mothers of today while ignoring the orchestrated destruction of the families of their ancestors centuries ago.

Originally posted by truthseeka
the big deal about "out-of-wedlock" is manufactured, seeing as how HALF of all marriages in America now end in divorce.

Yes, but divorced parents usually continue to take care of their children. There are dead-beat dads who don't pay child support, but for the most part both parents in a divorce continue to physically, emotionally, and financially take care of the children. If the child lives with mom then dad helps financially and still has visitations and involvement in the child's life.

That isn't the case in abandonment.

It is also a fact that children in single parent homes are at greater risk emotionally and physically as well as at greater risk for not doing well in school.

the single-parent issue in black America is ultimately the fault of white America!

Oh goodness. :shk: (you knew you'd get that response, didn't ya? )

I'm not responsible for the personal choice of any man who decides to have sex, create a baby, then abandon that child (and perpetuate the difficult situation of his race). I'm not responsible for the choices made by black people to abandon children. You are not responsible for choices made by white children to smoke drugs.

When Europeans brought Africans to America as slaves ... basically, the white slavers did indeed destroy the black family.

White slavers, Mediteranean slavers (Portugal), Muslim Barbary slavers (enslaved millions of both black and white people), and black African slavers all contributed to death and misery and difficult (almost non-existant) family situations duirng the transportation process. Absolutely.

All familial customs were destroyed.

I don't think so. It was definately much harder because sometimes families were sold separately, etc. But when the slaves were bought and placed on the plantations, the customs were there and even some new ones were born (jumping the broomstick .. etc). Families did arise in slavery.

centuries ago.

... and there you said it. CENTURIES ago.

A man who gets his 'sex kicks' in today, and then abandons his child, can't blame his actions on 'centuries ago'. It was his choice, in this moment. And he is fully aware of what he's doing and the effects it has on others.

Are you saying that black people are incapable of modernizing and of learning the difference between right and wrong because of what happened to their ancestors 'centuries ago'?? They are a lost cause, eh?

Thank you, truthseeka, for once again keeping it real. It is about time we had some context here.

I appreciate the information in regards to history and society. But as a friend told me, ideology is rather hard to erase. Unfortunately, there are those that keep on repeating the same old tired rhetoric over and over as a way to defame Blacks and their progress in society. And they will keep on repeating it because it represents a sense of "superiority" and a continued reinforcement of privilege in a society of institutional racism.

[edit on 5-2-2007 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by ceci2006
Thank you, truthseeka, for once again keeping it real.

Ceci, do you agree with truthseeka's statement here?

Originally posted by truthseeka
the single-parent issue in black America is ultimately the fault of white America!

Originally posted by FlyersFan
I'm not responsible for the personal choice of any man who decides to have sex, create a baby, then abandon that child (and perpetuate the difficult situation of his race). I'm not responsible for the choices made by black people to abandon children. You are not responsible for choices made by white children to smoke drugs.

Who said you're responsible? Your COUNTRY is responsible.

White slavers, Mediteranean slavers (Portugal), Muslim Barbary slavers (enslaved millions of both black and white people), and black African slavers all contributed to death and misery and difficult (almost non-existant) family situations duirng the transportation process. Absolutely.

Nice try with the deflection. Slavery has a long history in humans (the Moors enslaved the Spanish, so you even have black slavers and white slaves ), but the US is the ONLY example where slaves were dehumanized and their descendants subject to inhuman discrimination, racism, etc. But again, nice try.

I don't think so. It was definately much harder because sometimes families were sold separately, etc. But when the slaves were bought and placed on the plantations, the customs were there and even some new ones were born (jumping the broomstick .. etc). Families did arise in slavery.

Taurus feces. The old religions, customs, and other cultural traits were destroyed to the fullest extent of the slavers. The slaves did indeed retain some of their old ways, but these were in a veiled form. You still cannot argue against the fact that slaves weren't allowed to marry and that their children were not theirs, but the property of their masters.

... and there you said it. CENTURIES ago.

A man who gets his 'sex kicks' in today, and then abandons his child, can't blame his actions on 'centuries ago'. It was his choice, in this moment. And he is fully aware of what he's doing and the effects it has on others.

Are you saying that black people are incapable of modernizing and of learning the difference between right and wrong because of what happened to their ancestors 'centuries ago'?? They are a lost cause, eh?

Lost cause, WTF is that?

It seems you are ignorant of the power of slavery's legacy (don't worry, I'm not surprised). I said centuries ago when I should have said FOR CENTURIES. You honestly believe that the treatment we received in this country for CENTURIES won't manifest itself in our current generation? If black men were turned into sperm donors only under the slavers, is it a surprise that a number are now still sperm donors when it comes to the family?

Originally posted by truthseeka
Your COUNTRY is responsible.

If the USA is MY country, where were you born?

[edit on 5-2-2007 by Benevolent Heretic]

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by truthseeka
Your COUNTRY is responsible.

If the USA is MY country, where were you born?

[edit on 5-2-2007 by Benevolent Heretic]

I may be American by birth, but I don't consider this "my country" when:

Police harass me because I'm black.
Campus police have harassed me because I'm black.
I won't be paid as much as a white man once I finish college because I'm black.
I am harassed by stooges in the mall because I'm black (tip for black shoppers, avoid Dillard's).
I get "separate but unequal" treatment from cashiers because I'm black.

The list goes on and on...


[edit on 5-2-2007 by truthseeka]

Originally posted by truthseeka
Who said you're responsible? Your COUNTRY is responsible.

You said it was the fault of 'white America'. That's me. I'm white (mostly) and I'm American.

Nice try with the deflection.

Not deflection. Truth

the US is the ONLY example where slaves were dehumanized and their descendants subject to inhuman discrimination, racism, etc.

Read up on the Barbary Pirates and get back to me (African boys made into eunichs among other things .. their survival rates and their lives afterwards ... that makes for interesting reading). Read up on what England did to the Irish and get back to me. Read up on what Rome did to just about everyone and get back to me. Greece too.

Lost cause, WTF is that?

You keep saying basically that black people are a lost cause. Because black people lived in slavery centuries ago you are giving the black man a free pass NOW to act irresponsibly. You obviously don't think they are capable of modern civilized behavior or you wouldn't be using centuries past slavery as an excuse for their personal bad choices now. You are saying that they aren't capable of thinking clearly and that they can't possibly think progressively because of what might have happened to great-great-great-great grandpappy.

If black men were turned into sperm donors only under the slavers,

... centuries ago. That has nothing to do with decisions he makes now. It's a cop out. Ya' wanna' have fun and not have to take resopnsibilty.

Originally posted by truthseeka
I may be American by birth, but I don't consider this "my country"

Well, you can consider it whatever you want, but we were both born here with ancestors from elsewhere. So it's as much your country as it is mine.

I don't like everything that happens to me here either (or to you). But since I partake in living in what still is the best country in the world, and take advantage of the rights my citizenship provides, despite its problems, it's still my country.

And yours, as long as you were born here and decide to stay.



[edit on 5-2-2007 by Benevolent Heretic]

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Ceci, do you agree with truthseeka's statement here?

Originally posted by truthseeka
the single-parent issue in black America is ultimately the fault of white America!

I simply said that he "kept it real", which in fact means that he spoke truthfully about the "out of wedlock" situation. That's my clarification. Nothing more.

[edit on 5-2-2007 by ceci2006]

Ceci - I didn't ask for a clarification of your "keep it real" comment. I asked if you agreed with him.

Of course if you want to gloss over my question, you're free to do so. I am also aware that you didn't address the issue I had in this post, either, even though you specifically said you would:

Originally posted by ceci2006
I read your comments, BH. I'll answer you a little later in the day. I'd like to think about what you said so I can answer appropriately.

It's your absolute right not to answer at all. But I hardly think it puts you in the position of claiming that the issues and questions put forth by people of color get glossed over by the "dominant group".

Why are you having a fit? You asked. I answered.

I'm sorry that wasn't the answer you wanted.

However, if you look on page 11, you'll get my answer to this question.


[edit on 5-2-2007 by ceci2006]

I'm not having a fit at all. I asked a question and you did not answer it. For the second time now. The question I asked was whether or not you agreed with truthseeka's statement that the single-parent issue in black America is ultimately the fault of white America.

A "yes" or "no" would have sufficed.

But I see you would prefer to gloss over or deflect it, which is well within your right.

I don't find your response on page 11. To either of my questions. That's ok, though, I can see you're not really willing to answer them.