HUD Secretary Speaks Against Black Victimhood

First of all, let me thank you, HH, for the WATS. I appreciate the show of support and the generosity you have extended toward my message. It is sad that the serious disconnect exists. And instead of some posters trying to understand what the three of us are saying, they would much rather belittle our attempts of hard work in the expression of the subject matter.

I also extend a thank you to truthseeka. Truthseeka, you have spoken the truth about this matter and it is highly appreciated. It is sad that instead of a cordial reception that one would expect on this board, there are some posters who would rather descend into the baser aspects of human behavior. Unfortunately, manners and civility cannot be taught to everyone. And of course, class cannot be taught as well. Either one has class or one doesn't. And you and HH definitely showed class in this debate.

BH, I have not ignored your post. I would like to think about it and answer you thoughtfully because you expressed some very good points. I also thank you for extending a show of no animosity in your message. That means a lot to me.



[edit on 31-1-2007 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by jsobecky
Too bad, pal. This is a public forum, and yes, I will respond to you. That's the way it works in a discussion forum. You can't just tell the females to protect you. Come out and debate like a man.

Oh, I get it now. You have some trouble reading, eh? What a shame.

Or maybe you just like talking to people who don't like you. I guess.

So I'm asking HH and ceci to protect me?



I guess, due to your reading problem, you can't see that it is ME who comes in and sticks up for THEM when posters like YOU start attacking them. But hate on, cuz that's all a hater knows.

Debate like a man?

ROFLMMFAO!!!

Why don't YOU debate like you have some sense? Matter of fact, why don't you debate period; all you do is squawk asinine comments.

OK, now for an actual discussion.

BH, something came to me last night about this whole thing in this thread. I was thinking about what you said along the lines of "we have to agree to disagree." You were talking about how both sides make futile attempts to change the other side's mind.

What do I mean? It seems to me that the difference you and me have in this thread concern who's more at fault for the situation that the average black American is in. I'm going to pretend like I know what you think on this (assumptions, I know ); you place the blame more on black Americans than the system white Americans created and perpetuate.

Of course, it's the other way around for me. Even though I DO place some responsibility on black Americans, I didn't say that in this thread initially because everyone was sucking Alphonso Jackson's wang. BUT, let it be known that I do blame the blacks who stay ignorant of how corrupt the system really is and play into the system.

But, most of the responsibility clearly falls on white America. From a sociological standpoint, a minority is defined as not having as much control over their OWN LIVES than the majority. But, you don't need sociology to see that you cannot blame black America for all its problems.

I noticed that whenever I brought up discrimination, you glossed over it. You like to say that though discrimination did and continues to exist in the system, the average black American can overcome it. That is clearly not the case. The average black American is kept from learning about the corrupt white system in America, save through personal experience.

And, education is the key. Most blacks are not taught about the glorious past in their home continent. After whites stripped Egypt from the rest of Africa, it was easy to subject Africans and their descendants to barbaric treatment. The Eurocentric education we receive in America did the rest.

Most black youths today don't know that there were a number of kingdoms and civilizations in Africa besides Egypt. I can say that is 100% FACT, because I didn't know this myself until I took a civil rights class in college. The Eurocentric education basically ignores what Africans were doing before the Trans-Atlantic slave trade.

The perception the youths get is that all Africans were doing was throwing spears around until the Europeans came, and that they were all good with slavery until it was abolished. There is NEVER any mention that the slaves revolted FROM THE JUMP; I wondered why the slaves didn't revolt until I learned the truth. From breaking tools to killing their masters, slaves clearly showed they were not OK with slavery.

Once you get to the end of slavery, you have the beloved Jim Crow laws. From there, you get "separate but equal." And then you have the CRM. The kids are taught that once the CRM happened, everything was ok for blacks. But, I digress.

Oh, yeah, discrimination. You mistakely believe that everything is all good now. ALL of my older relatives can remember segregation. This is why they always spoke about "them white folks" in a strange, almost fearful way. They spoke about the whites as if much of their destiny was controlled by "them white folks." It took me a long time to figure out why they did this.

Discrimination is EVERYWHERE in American society. Blacks, on average, still make less than whites (women still make less than men, but that's a different discussion...). Whites get better health care, better housing, better treatment by law enforcement, basically a better life in America. And, what's the BIGGEST reason for this?

DISCRIMINATION.

When integration began to give blacks a chance at an equal educational opportunity with whites, whites started closing schools altogether in some areas. When blacks who worked hard to purchase a house tried to get one, banks wouldn't give them loans. On top of that, white neighborhoods formed coalitions to keep blacks out.

Blacks have ALWAYS been paid less than whites for the same jobs (but hey, at least we get paid to work now ). And, this is a new one for me, toxic waste dumps and trash dumps are more likely to be located in black or other minority neighborhoods (the real Americans, the Native People, are even more likely to have toxic waste dumps near their homes, and that's on the slice of their ancestral lands they have left ).

Those are just a few examples. You just can't ignore the impact of discrimination on the black community, BH. I don't care if you don't like to see this picture, but you have to look at it. Just because some blacks are affluent now doesn't mean the less fortunate are to blame for their plight. In case you didn't know, there is a LONG history of black affluents in America. By your logic, the blacks who were victims of slavery were to blame because there were blacks who had accumulated wealth and status while slavery was going on. Make sense to you?

Originally posted by truthseeka
Of course, it's the other way around for me. Even though I DO place some responsibility on black Americans, I didn't say that in this thread initially because everyone was sucking Alphonso Jackson's wang. BUT, let it be known that I do blame the blacks who stay ignorant of how corrupt the system really is and play into the system.

Nice talk. Nice categorization of the people in this thread.:shk: Do you kiss your mama with that same mouth?

And, education is the key. Most blacks are not taught about the glorious past in their home continent. After whites stripped Egypt from the rest of Africa, it was easy to subject Africans and their descendants to barbaric treatment. The Eurocentric education we receive in America did the rest.

Most black youths today don't know that there were a number of kingdoms and civilizations in Africa besides Egypt. I can say that is 100% FACT, because I didn't know this myself until I took a civil rights class in college. The Eurocentric education basically ignores what Africans were doing before the Trans-Atlantic slave trade.

Yeah, we've all heard the tales of how you were all sculptured kings and beautiful queens. Did your black studies class also teach you that your own kings sold you to the slave traders?

Did they also tell you that slavery was commonplace in Africa long before the Europeans came around?

Slavery existed in Africa before the arrival of Europeans--as did a slave trade that exported a small number of sub-Saharan Africans to North Africa, the Middle East, and the Persian Gulf.
www.digitalhistory.uh.edu...

Once you get to the end of slavery, you have the beloved Jim Crow laws. From there, you get "separate but equal." And then you have the CRM. The kids are taught that once the CRM happened, everything was ok for blacks. But, I digress.

Mininmum 40 years ago. That's two generations.

When integration began to give blacks a chance at an equal educational opportunity with whites, whites started closing schools altogether in some areas. When blacks who worked hard to purchase a house tried to get one, banks wouldn't give them loans. On top of that, white neighborhoods formed coalitions to keep blacks out.

All of that has been solved by passing laws for years gone by now.


So after all your whining and moaning, what is it exactly that you want? I have a pretty good idea, but I want to hear you say it.

Now you're confused, huh?

I asked BENEVOLENT HERETIC to enter a discussion on the points I made, NOT YOU. But, I guess you won't let that stop you from running your mouth.

Whatever. I will neither read your responses to my post nor comment on them; I'm sure it's trash anyway.

Originally posted by truthseeka
I didn't say that in this thread initially because everyone was sucking Alphonso Jackson's wang.

NASTY!

Originally posted by truthseeka
The Eurocentric education basically ignores what Africans were doing before the Trans-Atlantic slave trade.

.. all the inner-tribal wars, slavery and war between tribes, fighting with the Muslim Barbary pirates (who enslaved Africans AND Europeans by the millions) ...

Public education in America centers on ... AMERICA. There are overviews in world history of major civilizations that had effects on the world and America. History is dull enough to most students, but to subject them to having to learn which African tribes enslaved other African tribes .. when it doesn't effect them at all ... major dull. That's something for people who want to major in that sort of thing .. in college.

If you have information on what things people in Africa were doing before the slave trade, and why we should be interested, start a thread and educate us.



[edit on 1/31/2007 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by truthseeka
I'm going to pretend like I know what you think on this (assumptions, I know

); you place the blame more on black Americans than the system white Americans created and perpetuate.

No, I don't. Your assumption is (happily) incorrect.

I place the blame on the people (regardless of race) who created and perpetuate the system that keeps other people (regardless of race) down.

What I'm saying is that I hold ALL Americans (regardless of race) responsible for taking positive steps over which they have control; to do what they can in their lives to make them better and make themselves more successful, so as not to have to depend on the government and other agencies.

I hold Americans (regardless of race) responsible to use birth control if they cannot afford children. I hold them responsible to find other means of entertainment than becoming addicted to drugs while depending on the system. I hold high-school students responsible to stay in school and graduate. I hold the parents of these kids responsible for making rules, disciplining and taking care of their children.

But, you don't need sociology to see that you cannot blame black America for all its problems.

And I don't. The problems in "black America" have been a long time in the making -- and being born black doesn't make a person responsible for everything that has happened before. (Just as being born white doesn't make a person responsible for everything that has happened before.)

What I'm saying is that once born I hold a person (regardless of race) accountable as to what he does with what he has. And dropping out of high school, joining a gang, having 6 kids that one cannot afford and being on welfare is NOT doing the best with what a person is given (regardless of race).

You like to say that though discrimination did and continues to exist in the system, the average black American can overcome it.

Please show me where I said this.

I do think we all have trials in our lives. For most black people, discrimination is something they deal with every day. And 99% of other people also have something negative that they have to deal with every day. You want discrimination gone? So do I! But that's not likely to happen in my lifetime. I can only hope it gets a lot better in yours.

I've experienced discrimination. Not anything close to what black people face, but I know what it is, how ugly it is and how terrible it feels and the anger it can evoke.

What I'm saying is that if you had to deal with some of the problems that other people deal with on a day to day basis, you might gain a bit of perspective on just how bad the discrimination you experience is. I'm not trying to trivialize it. I don't even know how much you have to deal with but there are other terrible things in life too, that Thank God, you don't know what it's like to experience.

(I'm doing a little assuming of my own here. I'm assuming you weren't (for example) repeatedly molested as a child and raped as a young woman, or that you experience chronic and severe pain every day of your life? Or that the only child you'll ever be able to have died. I'm just saying yes, discrimination is bad. And there are other things in life that are bad.

You were born black. Discrimination against blacks is a reality in today's world. I'm not saying it's right, I'm not telling you to get over it, I'm not saying don't fight it. What I am saying is that it's what has been handed you and how you deal with it shows what kind of person you are.

The average black American is kept from learning about the corrupt white system in America, save through personal experience.

So is the average white American, honey. We don't have secret meetings where they give us the low-down on what's going on. We have to learn it for ourselves, too.

Most blacks are not taught about the glorious past in their home continent.

You know what? If blacks never learned about slavery, I think we'd all be a lot better off and get along a LOT better. WHat good does it do you to know about the history of people you never even knew, but happened to share a skin color with you?

I know, it's none of my business.

From breaking tools to killing their masters, slaves clearly showed they were not OK with slavery.

I'm not ok with it either. I don't know ANYONE who is ok with it.

You mistakely believe that everything is all good now.

No I don't. You're making assumptions about me based on the color of my skin.

ALL of my older relatives can remember segregation. This is why they always spoke about "them white folks" in a strange, almost fearful way. They spoke about the whites as if much of their destiny was controlled by "them white folks." It took me a long time to figure out why they did this.

Wow. You're not saying that your parents taught you to resent whites and blame them for your condition, are you? I didn't think so. We all know black people don't teach their kids that way these days. Not for 30 years have black people said such things to their children...

You just can't ignore the impact of discrimination on the black community, BH.

I don't hon. You don't know me well enough to be making these kind of assumptions about me.

Originally posted by truthseeka
Now you're confused, huh?

Nope.

I asked BENEVOLENT HERETIC to enter a discussion on the points I made, NOT YOU. But, I guess you won't let that stop you from running your mouth.

No it won't.

Whatever. I will neither read your responses to my post nor comment on them; I'm sure it's trash anyway.

Yeah you will. You'll read them, and you've already responded to them.

I want to know why you insulted people on this thread with the childish remark about AJ's genitals?

[edit on 31-1-2007 by jsobecky]

lol sorry people... i miss a few days and (WOW) this thread went beserk. I'm at work right now so I'll sift thru it later...

benevolent heretic-

Stop giving them the old, outdated message that white people are keeping them down.

I see your point and agree. I just don't see a reason to debate the fact that white people are partially to blame. Maybe not today's white people, but white people who lived 50 or 100 years ago, and set things into motion that would really put black people at a fundamental disadvantage while the nation's capitalistic wheels really started to turn.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

I'm pretty sure you're right. I'm not sure which are the "latest issues" but I do agree there's a giant disconnect going on here. And I suspect both "sides" are guilty of either not expressing ourselves clearly or coming at this with preconceived assumptions, emotions and agendas or both.

I respectfully disagree. HH, myself and truthseeka were very clear about how we felt about Mr. Jackson.

I know you think it should, but, Your black-ness doesn't give you any more credibility that A. Jackson's blackness gives him... So, saying that there are 3 blacks saying the same thing means we should believe it doesn't quite cut it. I can find 10 blacks who agree with me. That doesn't make my opinion any more right. And blackness does not equal credibility.

Neither does whiteness. That makes me wonder why whiteness is held up as the gold standard especially in issues that have to do with any other race.

Like any other subject, there are 2 sides, neither of which believe the other, no matter how much information is presented on either side. (See my previous post) Why should we believe you just because you're black?

Why should we believe you because you are white?

A. Let me be clear. Mr. Jackson has absolutely NOTHING to do with what I believe. I'm not taking his word at all. I had my OWN thoughts about this issue years before I ever heard of Mr. Jackson or his parroted opinion. So, regardless his message or his reasons for putting it forth, I already thought along these lines. I didn't get my opinion from him or Bill Cosby or Morgan Freeman or any of their 'ilk'. I got it from my life experiences. Not from a book or an article or scholarly source except for my own experiences listening to black people talk. I hope that's clear.

That's very clear. I laud you for listening to Black folk. However, to present the issues in a more constructive fashion, an article and scholarly source needs to be brought in. That is why I stress research on the matter.

I hope that is equally clear.

B. I know there are a million sources out there that support your way of thinking, Ceci. You could quote scholars all day and find people who support your position. I get that. (And I actually think you have a really strong argument) But remember, when 9/11 fans are discussing the subject, the proponents of the "official story" can quote scholarly articles all day long that "PROVE" that 9/11 was done by Osama Bin Laden and his band of Al Qeada soldiers and that the US Government was completely innocent in any complicity.

Their position is at least as supported as yours is here.

Thank you for saying that. I would hope that my sources are highly detailed and direct.

My point is that unfortunately, I don't think your sources do ANYTHING to convince us that you position is true. I don't think there's any amount of proof that you can provide that will convince the "other side" (us) that what you, HH and truthseeka say is true as long as we're hearing something different from 98% of the black people we encounter in RL or documentary-type television.

That is why you have to open your mind to what the sources say in order to rewrite the stereotypes built up in your thinking. Otherwise, your mind is closed to different sources that try to put the entire thing into perspective. I don't think you want to be closed-minded, do you?

With my reasoning, logical mind, I cannot understand how -- a pre-school black girl, given 2 dolls, one white and one black, and asked to pick the "nice" doll, she picks the white one "because it's white" -- she has not been given some message from her MOTHER that black isn't as good as white.

Because she has been socialized by "the system", a "system" that sponsors institutional racism. I think that it is hard for those not subject to "the system" to understand what people of color go through on a daily basis. It is not fun to acknowledge the types of struggles people of color have to go through. But, in the words of a lady who gave a talk about her experiences in a Japanese internment camp, we mention those experiences to keep them in the public eye so that this behavior is stopped.

Scholarly research and articles help our case. Or else, people will continue to say that they see "nothing".

I cannot further reason that black people don't resent or hate white people because of this systemic message given to black children at such a young age. I cannot conclude that black people don't perceive white people as keeping them down or holding them back from being successful.

You'd get an inkling that was the case if you were black. Since you aren't, the best you can do is to listen to our stories, read articles which systematically study these experiences and to work on repairing the system so that there is the "equality" you crave.

And it's a parent's responsibility (regardless of color) to make SURE their children are getting the right messages to get them through life; to grow into adulthood with good self-esteem and pride about who they are.

Not all parents are that altruistic. There are also parents out there who teach their children to hate. And what are you going to say to those parents who do?

As for accepting ourselves, I think for the most part a lot of us do. The problem comes when we assert ourselves and white people do not listen to us, ridicule our comments and ignore what we say.

I'm all for education. I think the responsibility of you and people like you is to educate people, not to try to force or prove your position.

By posting sources and talking about these matters, I am educating people. I don't see it any other way. I don't see myself as pushing the matter. Perhaps you see it as pushing the matter because you are constantly overwhelmed by the new information being handed to you.

I just learned in the last year about hair straightening and skin lightening by black women. From YOU! Black women kept it such a good secret that I didn't even know about it! But you and HH educated me. That's one of the most valuable pieces of knowledge that has ever come from our pages of debate. And there's not a damn thing I can do about it. But you can.

There is something that you can do about it. Continue to listen and talk to us. Don't ridicule our comments. Do not practice "selective hearing". Be open to everything that we say. Do not be bitter. One of the things I've learned from talking with you all is simply that. I understand that there are those who might not understand what I am saying. But I hold out hope that one person will get it finally.

As in all of my talks about race, I'll repeat it again: I love all people. I love the fact that we can come together to talk about this.

The good thing is that you haven't ignored us. That is why I still, after all this time, hold you up in high esteem. Despite our problems, you continue to try. That is all we can ask for.

I admit, SOME of what has formed my decision over the years happened years ago, but you should especially understand that racist behavior takes a long time to forget. What I've heard black people say about white people (to my face and behind my back [they thought]) sticks with me stronger than any source you could provide from a black successful author who does "studies" and writes about them. I believe your sources have their own agendas, just as A. Jackson's does.

So they do. However, they are there to provide a different perspective than the usual comments provided on ATS. If I didn't do that, the same old side would be reinforced.

Work on rewriting those messages. That is the most important thing. We are all here trying to learn something new. And it takes a while for some of the ideas to take hold. But, what is important is that we are working on them in order to change these relations.



[edit on 31-1-2007 by ceci2006]

How easy would it be for me to convince you that white people aren't racist anymore? Because of your experience with white people, I could give you a zillion sources saying so, but would you believe it? No. Because your personal experiences tell you otherwise.

That's not entirely true. You could give me a zillion sources. I'd find other sources to critique those sources. That is what an intellectual debate is all about.

It simply isn't just experiences. I've worn those high heels too many times. I've discussed my experiences and had them thrown back into my face. Scholarly research on this matter is quite better.

Ceci, I believe you when you say that A. Jackson's motives aren't pure. I don't trust anyone in the current administration. I thought you knew that about me. But, like I said, this dude I've never heard of is NOT what formed my opinion on this matter. You're wasting your own time trying to prove (to me, at least) that high-ranking Republicans have an agenda to make the poor poorer and make the rich richer. And I seriously doubt your sources are going to convince strong Replubican-leaning members of anything either. They are pretty strong in their opinions.

Would you have believed me if I simply said it? That is why the sources are there to back up my opinions about this issue. There is still a belief out there that when people of color simply say things, their word is not to be taken for granted.

That is part of the institutional racism that exists not only in the real world, but in the academic one as well.

And you also don't have to convince anyone that systemic racism exists. I KNOW it does.

I'm glad you acknowledge it. A lot of people wouldn't have.

I've seen it too. And if others don't believe it, I seriously doubt that anything you could say would convince them. People who care, people like you and I, who care about racism and unequal treatment of all people, just need to keep plugging away, bit by bit to educate people and make things better.

I believe that too. That is why, despite some of the treatment I receive, I continue these talks. I want to learn something new about other people. In the same hopes, I would like someone to learn from me.

I appreciate all the research you do and the effort and time it takes, but I'm not sure that's the angle that's going to convince anyone. I'm actually not sure that anything you could do could change people's minds right now. But I appreciate your efforts. Really.

Thank you for saying that. However, I will continue to post sources for people to read. Although some might not like to read them, there are plenty of others who will.

For someone who is so predicated on choice, I think you would understand that this is the way I do debate. I don't just jump in there and discuss an issue without a show of proof. I display the proof.

Imagine how court cases would be if there weren't any evidence. Would you go up to each of the lawyers and say that they shouldn't provide any evidence to prove their case?

I have to go make oatmeal now.

I have more to say (believe it or not) but will make another post.

I look forward to it. I thank you for your thoughts. I am grateful that we were able to have this talk, especially after all we've been through. I still read what you have to say regardless of the past. And I continue to look forward to reading your thoughts on matters like these.

[edit on 31-1-2007 by ceci2006]

Originally quoted by ScramJet76

Hello, I think we're on the same team... just maybe you misinterrpreted (from pg 2 on this thread) my writing. I agree with you... "suck it up" is not the way to go.

I looked back at that post and discovered I did misread you. I apologize. That is what typing at late night does to you.

I know that we're on the same team. Again, thank you very much for your comments.


[edit on 31-1-2007 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by ceci2006
I respectfully disagree. HH, myself and truthseeka were very clear about how we felt about Mr. Jackson.

I didn't say you weren't.

Why should we believe you because you are white?

I don't know why I'm surprised that you deflected every issue I brought to you in good faith.

However, to present the issues in a more constructive fashion, an article and scholarly source needs to be brought in. That is why I stress research on the matter.

This isn't school. You aren't the teacher. I'll post with or without scholarly sources. I have done plenty of research. I don't care if you believe me or not. I have nothing to prove to you or anyone.

That is why you have to open your mind to what the sources say in order to rewrite the stereotypes built up in your thinking.

What?? I have to open my mind? I have to rewrite stereotypes in my thinking? That's the most condescending thing I've ever heard. Never mind.

I don't think you want to be closed-minded, do you?

Yes, Ceci, I want to be close minded. Who do you think you're talking to?

Because she has been socialized by "the system",

At 3 years old??? Did you even read what I wrote? You couldn't possibly have because a 3 year old isn't "socialized by the system". She's barely off her mother's teat!

Keep on working on rewriting those messages.

Rewriting messages? No thanks. I'll keep the messages I have. I certainly don't want the ones you would like rolling around in my head.

Herein lies the rub. I get stabbed in the back after showing good intentions.

I agree with HH in saying that in every other thread on ATS, research is expected from the members. When it comes to race, why isn't this the case?

I came to you in good faith, BH. I am very sorry that you feel the way you do. I tried to answer you honestly. And for my answers, you returned nothing but ridicule.

Because I know that you are not close-minded, I will continue to try. That's all I can do, despite the circumstances.

But, it does cross my mind that your behavior conveys why some Black people do not trust the words some of their white counterparts speak. Is it simply because some whites use the words of blacks against them while minimizing the impact of the message belonging to the said African-American?

Simply, that is why the scholarly work and research is important. It de-personalizes the issue so much so people can talk about these things civilly.




[edit on 1-2-2007 by ceci2006]

Some people are more comfortable posting sources and links as proof of their stance. While there is a place for these sources, in debates where scientific data is important (such as stem cell research), they fail in a discussion such as this because of several factors:

1. A member will never knowingly post scholarly articles that refute his/her position, even though they are aware that such articles exist.

2. Opposing points of view can easily offer articles of their own, so it ends up a zero sum game.

3. Very few people have the patience or the desire to wade through tomes, and conclusions reached often differ after all the effort.

4. Why should the opinion of someone be taken as gospel, simply because they have a few letters behind their name? Often, their research merely reflects their own personal bias.

5. Sociology is a very "soft" science, and is politically slanted towards the liberal POV.

Otoh, we can't completely discount research articles. There are times when it is useful, but not in every post a member makes. But sometimes, there is a pearl in the field of oysters.

What we should be doing, as adults, is putting the books away, and sitting down and talking face-to-face like two adults, and saying what me mean and why we are saying it, in our own words, not someone else's. Put aside the sniping and personal comments. What happens when those are not checked at the door, is that we have another 75 page thread with 70 pages of pure bs and personal attacks.

Face it: we can't "de-personalize" these type of discussions, since the topics are so very personal. To try to artificially do so results in some type of anal retention sickness ( and I need some help from the psych majors to describe what I mean).

So there.

As I was doing some late night reading, I came across this column from Eugene Kane about how Whites, Latinos and Blacks view race. I think it is quite interesting. And it might shed some light about the semantic disconnect that is happening here. The study was done by the Public Policy Institute. The respondents were in the Milwaukee area:

Study should get us talking about race

It's not a new story that black and white people often see the world through different lenses, for whatever reasons. But it remains an important story to tell and understand.

[...]

The questions on the telephone survey were designed to get people thinking deeply about their racial opinions. One question asked whether it was "common sense" or "prejudice" for police officers to pay more attention to blacks because of their race. Most whites agreed it was common sense, while most blacks and Hispanics saw it as prejudice.

Another asked whites and blacks if - based on their personal experiences - they could ever trust someone of another race.

Most whites said they could trust someone of another race; blacks were split 50-50.

Browne thinks the survey results speak to myriad problems facing Milwaukee that never get solved because sensitive social issues are seldom addressed, particularly in areas like transportation and economic development.

Here is another study about White/Black relations from Science Blog. This is another fascinating study about the notion of being "colorblind". This might also help figure out the serious disconnect that is happening in discussions like these:

Efforts for whites to appear colorblind may backfire

New research shows that whites often avoid using race to describe other people, particularly in interactions with blacks. However further research reveals that such efforts to appear colorblind and unprejudiced are associated with less-friendly nonverbal behaviors.

"Many whites seem to think that appearing colorblind – avoiding race during social interaction – is a good way to appear unbiased," said Samuel R. Sommers, Ph.D., assistant professor of psychology in the School of Arts and Sciences at Tufts University. "Despite that perception that colorblindness may make a positive impression on others, our data suggests that it often backfires."

In one study, researchers examined whites' reluctance to admit to their ability to categorize others on the basis of race. This study tested how fast whites categorized people in photos using different characteristics, including race, and compared that data with whites' estimates of how quickly they would be able to make those categorizations. A second study examined the consequences of whites' reluctance to identify other people according to their race.

[...]
"Whites sometimes deny the ease with which they can categorize others by race," Sommers said. "And they'll even avoid using race as a simple descriptor of someone else."

What do people think about these studies? Might these shed light on why the same message appears different to people of different races? It might give some clues why the message conveyed by Mr. Jackson might be perceived in various forms by the respondents in this thread.


[edit on 1-2-2007 by ceci2006]

Ok, so I'm a black guy. You ask me "Is it prejudice or common sense for the police to pay more attention to blacks because of your race"?

Now, what the hell response do you expect? It's a downright stupid, loaded question.

Originally posted by jsobecky
5. Sociology is a very "soft" science, and is politically slanted towards the liberal POV.

...which is why, in the thread about successful black people, I quote economists. I'm experiencing the same problem.

Face it: we can't "de-personalize" these type of discussions

I manage to do it, most of the time. I don't think I'm any better, or smarter, than anyone here. I think people choose to be offensive, on purpose.

I also came up with an article from Mary Mitchell from the Suntimes Blog group. I think that her reasons why the semantic disconnect happens is much more direct:

Why I Talk About Race

So why don't we talk about race?

O.K. I'll re-phrase that question. Why don't white people talk about race? Why don't Asians talk about race? Why don't Latinos talk about race? Black people talk about race all the time.

We talk about it when we bemoan the state of public education. We talk about it when we complain about police brutality. We talk about it when we shop at neighborhood stores that sell loose cigarettes and single sticks of margarine.

Last month, I participated in a panel discussion of the movie "Crash" that was held at DePaul University. I was surprised that so many people turned out for the event. Other members of the panel included a black poet, black public defender, Puerto Rican lawyer, a black judge, a Latino lawyer, and a white lesbian/feminist/politician.

The audience included about a dozen white people.Everyone seemed passionate about the racial themes depicted in the movie. But at the end of 1-1/2 hours of talking, we didn't hear from one white person.

Not one white person asked a question. Or made a comment. Or shared a story about race relations. For all practical purposes, we were a roomful of black and Latinos talking to ourselves.

What does everyone think about this? Do you think that this vignette might point to the semantic disconnect that is happening?

There might be three reasons why the semantic disconnect is occurring when receiving the same message from Mr. Jackson. However, these reasons can evolve or change depending on the point of view involved.

1)There are various different ways to think about the same event afforded to race.

2)A message that might not appear comfortable to one race, might be comfortable to another race.

3)Depending on the subject matter, various subjectivities depend on which group is in the majority.

Perhaps, this might be the case when Mr. Jackson's message is being received by the members of different groups of people.

-----------------

After 75 pages, I've learned to depersonalize it because scholarly material cuts to the chase in terms of discussing an issue. I second HH's sentiments in saying that people choose to be rude because they can. Experiences are ridiculed. Results can be debated. And no one's feelings get hurt when depersonalization takes place.

Furthermore, with research, no one's "lack of communication skills" get questioned.



[edit on 1-2-2007 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by HarlemHottie

Originally posted by jsobecky
5. Sociology is a very "soft" science, and is politically slanted towards the liberal POV.

...which is why, in the thread about successful black people, I quote economists. I'm experiencing the same problem.

Face it: we can't "de-personalize" these type of discussions

I manage to do it, most of the time. I don't think I'm any better, or smarter, than anyone here. I think people choose to be offensive, on purpose.

Some people are offensive because they haven't learned any other ways to communicate. It takes time. But we're human beings, and our emotions are going to surface one way or another. And that's healthy.