On Patriotism - Why 11 Million Cubans Love Fidel

Originally posted by donwhite
.........................
So, I ask, if life in Cuba is so bad, if the people are starving as my critics allege, how come they live so long? As in the infant mortality case, my critics remain silent. They remain silent because the numbers belie their claims. My critics have financial reasons and religious reasons for not liking Fidel Castro. But they have offered none to very few current facts to show me why I ought not to like Fidel Castro. I’m waiting.

And you have been told time and time again, with very detailed descriptions that it is a repressive regime, people are not free to express their opinions against the government, and if they do they get punished for it....

The Cuban government controls everything, from the news, to statistics and every report released to the world by the Cuban government...There are no "civilian agencies" that can track what is happening in Cuba and freely post their results.

Anything published has to speak highly of the government, and any documents or publications which are found to have been written against the government in any way gets it's lid closed, the people involved in it arrested for being traitors against the revolution, and people lose any jobs they might have had, most of which are government jobs.

In Cuba when the the government claims in the news that only 10 people died when a hurricane passed over the island, most people know this is not true, the living conditions in Cuba are very bad, many people live in shacks and houses that have not been repaired for years because people can't pay to repair them, and the government doesn't move a finger to fix them, only those which are close to any tourist areas.

BTW...your critics do not have "finantial and religious reasons" for what we have stated...the regime is repressive and denies basic human rights to it's people, but you seem very willing to continously try to defend it for whatever reasons you might have.

[edit on 1-11-2006 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by dgtempe
Cuba had hamburger joints which we call "fritas" loaded with fat as well as churros (fried dough) and Chinese food all over the place.

It is not the food. Not to mention the fact that everything is cooked in grease and lots of it.

DG, you might be partially right, but i think it has a lot more to do with the fact that the Cuban government is the one making those claims, even the reports given by human right groups say the regime is opressive. I am not sure how they get the information, it is possible they get some of their people in Cuba "as tourists" and don't report what their intentions really are, because i am sure you know what would happen to any "real" human right activist that reports to the Cuban government they are going to make a report on human rights on the island...

[edit on 1-11-2006 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by Muaddib

In Cuba when the the government claims in the news that only 10 people died when a hurricane passed over the island, most people know this is not true, the living conditions in Cuba are very bad, many people live in shacks and houses that have not been repaired for years because people can't pay to repair them, and the government doesn't move a finger to fix them, only those which are close to any tourist areas.

Actually, not even so much anymore. Just, as a general rule, the homes are falling apart, even close to the tourist areas.



The conditions inside these buildings in particular were apalling. Little to no maintenance, repair, etc. These were outside the tourist area of Guardalavaca.









Most of these were outside Holguin city, Banes, or around Gibara.

No illusions here, and with each hurricane, each year, the conditions get worse.

Originally posted by Muaddib
I am not sure how they get the information, it is possible they get some of their people in Cuba "as tourists" and don't report what their intentions really are, because i am sure you know what would happen to any "real" human right activist that reports to the Cuban government they are going to make a report on human rights on the island...

That's normally what happens.
If you try and file the real papers to go in as a working journalist, etc., then they normally get people to harass and threaten you. It's easier to get in on a tourist card because if they know you're there for anything else they'll give you a thorough going over before letting you leave, and you may not leave with all your stuff.

Thank you for the pictures parrhesia, and trust me, some of those houses are a lot better than the ones other Cubans are living in. The situation in the island is getting from bad to worse, if there ever was such a thing.

BTW, two cousins of mine made it to the U.S., one in a homemade boat some months ago, he never told anyone what he was going to do, and his sister married an American and came to the States less than a month ago.

People are trying to do anything and everything to leave, they can't express their opinion on politics and speak their minds about the regime, they are constantly watched by the neighborhood spies and everytime "el commandante" wants to make a 4 hour speech they have to leave everything to listen to him and show their faked support.

There are times when there is nothing to eat and not much of a future in the Island. People don't have a say on the education of their children. If you become a professional, the government takes every precaution for you not to leave the island, or seek assylum in other countries if they send any profesionals to "help the revolution in other countries", but i guess the Cuban people must love fidel and his regime.

[edit on 1-11-2006 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by dgtempe
Cuba had hamburger joints which we call "fritas" loaded with fat as well as churros (fried dough) and Chinese food all over the place.

It is not the food. Not to mention the fact that everything is cooked in grease and lots of it.

That sounds good where can i get one.

Really though do they have in foreign companies??? Even China has KFC.

[edit on 1-11-2006 by spinstopshere]

Originally posted by spinstopshere
That sounds good where can i get one.

Really though do they have in foreign companies??? Even China has KFC.

There's Pizza Nova in some areas.

Originally posted by parrhesia

Originally posted by spinstopshere
That sounds good where can i get one.

Really though do they have in foreign companies??? Even China has KFC.

There's Pizza Nova in some areas.

Is that really all they have?? What do they have la revolution hut instead of pizza hut??? Not trying to sound like a sarcastic jerk.

Originally posted by spinstopshere
\

Is that really all they have?? What do they have la revolution hut instead of pizza hut??? Not trying to sound like a sarcastic jerk.

Well, Pizza Nova is largely inaccesible to the average Cuban. It''s very expensive and really there for the Canadian tourists (it's a Canadian company).

Parrhesia,

thank you for those pictures sad as they are!!! Its good to see my land, eventhough i'm an American i will always be a Cuban at heart.

Muaddib is right, havana Vieja looks like a bomb fell there, the old traditional part of Havana. My relatives homes are all crumbling and its nothing but a mess.

Once again you guys are arguing that Cuba is poor. You have no opposition to that argument. You continue to dance around the reasons for the poverty though. Is it all spent on Castro? Cuba is poor because the worlds sole superpower refuses to trade with them. If you don't think that has any bearing on the conditions there then this argument is pretty much pointless. We cannot have a worthwhile discussion on the conditions in Cuba until you can admit that Uncle Sam plays a very big part in that.

Anyone ever tell you guy's that you cannot squeeze blood out of a rock?

Originally posted by Muaddib

Originally posted by dgtempe
Cuba had hamburger joints which we call "fritas" loaded with fat as well as churros (fried dough) and Chinese food all over the place.

It is not the food. Not to mention the fact that everything is cooked in grease and lots of it.

DG, you might be partially right, but i think it has a lot more to do with the fact that the Cuban government is the one making those claims, even the reports given by human right groups say the regime is opressive. I am not sure how they get the information, it is possible they get some of their people in Cuba "as tourists" and don't report what their intentions really are, because i am sure you know what would happen to any "real" human right activist that reports to the Cuban government they are going to make a report on human rights on the island...

[edit on 1-11-2006 by Muaddib]

No, Muaddib, not now, of course. I was referring to the past.

DaFunk:

Castro is a multimillonaire. Ask him where he got his money.

Do some research he is worth BILLIONS he pocketed instead of taking care of his people.

Originally posted by dgtempe
DaFunk:

Castro is a multimillonaire. Ask him where he got his money.

Do some research he is worth BILLIONS he pocketed instead of taking care of his people.

Erm..."The weekly financial magazine said the estimates were “more art than science.”

“In the past, we have relied on a percentage of Cuba’s gross domestic product to estimate Fidel Castro’s fortune,” Forbes explained.

“This year, we have used more traditional valuation methods, comparing state-owned assets Castro is assumed to control with comparable publicly traded companies,” it said."

Quoted from MSNBC's report on the Forbes "propaganda." Of course they will find his net worth to be huge when they figure the comparison between "state-owned assets and publicly traded companies." If you don't understand why this is not an accurate portrayal of his actual cash holdings (in a communist economy) than I don't think I can do this any longer. I suggest you do some research instead of just regurgitating....please.

Edit to say: Its also rated at 550 mil this year, 150 last year...far short of the "billions" you assert. Is Cuba's economy really doing well enough for his profits to increase so drastically?

[edit on 2-11-2006 by DaFunk13]

Originally posted by Muaddib
Humm, right his regime spoke for the greatest number of Vietnamese..

They spoke for him really and he would have won a election by a landslide hence the partitioning of the country to keep the west in.,..

which i guess was the reason why many Vietnamese people were killed by The People's Liberation Armed Forces...better known as the Vietcong...

People of all sides die in wars and the VC did kill South Vietnamese even if they never came close to the murderous efficiency of the USA and it's allies in the South..
At the very least the VC could explain these deaths as part of the struggle for freedom while the South and the USA had no such excuses considering their undemocratic intent so clearly on display..

and of course you would claim that every Vietnamese killed was done by the United States Armed Forces... again you are trying to twist facts....

Well they did not kill every Vietnamese but the war would have been impossible to continue without their intervention so most of the deaths ( whoever pulled the trigger) can be blamed at least partly on the US backed intervention.

If anyone is a "lackey" in here it is obviously you...you claim to speak for the people, yet you speak in favor and in defense of regimes which have only oppressed the people....

His no one's lackey imo and has very strong opinions which you should take note of in my opinion. He speaks in defense of democracy; the US intervened in Vietnam to prevent democracy from taking it's course and i am unsure if there is a crime in international affairs that has more dire results for humanity.

The people that have been able to leave such regimes have 1000 times more credence, and better knowledge about those regimes than you will ever have..

First hand experience can be very illuminating or it can reinforce bias beyond belief; we after all see reality how we are and not how it is... Your knowledge of these particular wars and leaders are lacking and apparently based entirely on Imperialist propaganda.

and my guess is that you are so fond of "dictatorships" because obviously you have some twisted dellusion of being a dictator some day,

Well if one goes back in history it's clear that democracy was a pretty rare thing yet there were VERY progressive dictators who chose to win support by actually helping the people; what one should investigate is why they tended to die in office and who were behind the assassinations. Look at early Rome and you will notice how progressives got killed off.

i mean c'mon...trying to claim that "you are for the people" when you favor dictatorships,

You can be "for the people' and be a dictator and actually do more for them than they would have managed by democracy decided based on who has most money. I am no supporter of autocratic rule but your reasoning is patently illogical.

and you chose a username which means being above the common people and having power over the common people?....

Well if it comes to intellectual prowess i hardly need look at his name to discover where he stands in relation to those who have attacked him on this topic.

Stellar

[edit on 2-11-2006 by StellarX]

Originally posted by Muaddib
Actually what you should try instead of believing the lies and exagerations which many "liberal/socialist/leftist/communist professors"

Anyone who suggest that America has such is deluded in many more ways than one.

are spreading in U.S. Colleges and Universities, and instead of reinforcing those exagerations with more "propaganda" from other

The only thing being spread in US colleges and Universities is more lies about the so called 'free market' ( free for the rich ; restricted for everyone else) and it's most certainly not being spread by liberals/socialist/communist as those were almost all worked out of the education system much earlier and finally during and shortly after the Vietnam war.

"liberal/socialist/leftist/communist professors" through programs on tv, you should be visiting Communist countries like Cuba,

Cuba is not a communist country and repeating the lie wont change that fact. It only turned for money and support to such sources because it had few other places to go that could protect it from US aggression and childish ( and less so) attempts at terror against Cuba.

and instead of "proclaiming immediately that you are a "leftist/liberal/socialist/communist" or whatever you are, or that you think castro is a good man, you should see with your own eyes what is happening in the country....

A 'good' person can do bad things ( especially when egged on by their local religious handler) just are surely as bad people can do great things. In my opinion Castro wanted to and would have done better by his people had he been presented with more opportunities but that's hard when the superpower next door hates your guts and wants to eradicate you, the people you lead, and everything you stand for from the face of the planet. Considering what Castro and so many of his reformer ilk are up against i will always give them the benefit of the doubt as their task in this world are not easy and normally warped badly by circumstance very much outside their control.

Better yet, get a t-shirt that has castro's picture on it saying "terrorist and murderer" and walk around in Cuba with such a t-shirt on and see how the people react, and how the regime reacts....

Murderer he is but why bother talking about the terror considering the terrorist next door who has been trying to sabotage his every action? Are we sure you would get locked up for just admitting that you dislike the president if you do not actually engage in plots against him? Interesting question but last i checked the USA had more political prisoners per 1 million than Cuba did.

After doing that maybe you will see the truth about the regime of Cuba and Communism in general...

This truth you talk about has little to do with truth as far as i understand it. If you want to talk about communism that's good as you have much to learn.

Stellar

Originally posted by DaFunk13
Once again you guys are arguing that Cuba is poor. You have no opposition to that argument. You continue to dance around the reasons for the poverty though. Is it all spent on Castro? Cuba is poor because the worlds sole superpower refuses to trade with them. If you don't think that has any bearing on the conditions there then this argument is pretty much pointless. We cannot have a worthwhile discussion on the conditions in Cuba until you can admit that Uncle Sam plays a very big part in that.

Anyone ever tell you guy's that you cannot squeeze blood out of a rock?

We are not just saying that Cuba is a poor country....it is a dictatorship that does not allow basic human rights to the people.

Do tell me in what Communist country have people been able to live as well off as the average American or European person?...

The regime of Cuba makes deals with other countries, and those deals are done just to help castro and his thugs get richer, it doesn't help the regular people.

You have to have lived there to see what was the reason for the decline in Cuba.

The regime of castro is very agressive against the Capitalist western countries, most so with the United States. The Cuban regime trains terrorists who fight against the United States Armed Forces, and their main goal is to "destroy Capitalism and mostly the United States"....

So tell me, which country in their right mind would trade with a regime whose main goal is the elimination of that country in any way possible?....

It does not matter whether or not the Cuban regime has enough power to accomplish this. The fact that it is trying to do this, and the fact that the Cuban regime trains known terrorists, harbors terrorists including terrorists who have had to flee the United States because in cases they have murdered someone, or partook in terrorist attacks in the U.S., is enough reasons for the United States not to have any deals with the Cuban government.

The suffering, hunger, and injustices that are happening in Cuba are happening because castro and his regime only want to expand this regime to the world, which means more people would be living in the same conditions as most Cubans, and to do this they use the money they should be spending on the Cuban people on training terrorists, sending doctors to other countries when there are Cubans who do not have the proper medical attention because of a lack of medical supplies which go to other "revolutionary countries", and the fact that "Communism" only supresses the human spirit and does not give the people under such a regime basic human rights.

That is the true reasons why the Cuban people are suffering, it is not because of the United States.

[edit on 3-11-2006 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by StellarX

They spoke for him really and he would have won a election by a landslide hence the partitioning of the country to keep the west in.,..

Is that why they had to kill so many of their own people?.....

Originally posted by StellarX
People of all sides die in wars and the VC did kill South Vietnamese even if they never came close to the murderous efficiency of the USA and it's allies in the South..

At the very least the VC could explain these deaths as part of the struggle for freedom while the South and the USA had no such excuses considering their undemocratic intent so clearly on display..

and the south and the united States were fighting for the people of the south....

Were there attrocities performed by some U.S. soldiers, yes, just like there were uncountable atrocities comitted by the Communist regime's forces, which were supposed to "fight for the people"....

Originally posted by StellarX
Well they did not kill every Vietnamese but the war would have been impossible to continue without their intervention so most of the deaths ( whoever pulled the trigger) can be blamed at least partly on the US backed intervention.

Right, and the Vietnamese in the south who didn't want to accept communism would have been forced much faster to become Communists...

Originally posted by StellarX
His no one's lackey imo and has very strong opinions which you should take note of in my opinion. He speaks in defense of democracy; the US intervened in Vietnam to prevent democracy from taking it's course and i am unsure if there is a crime in international affairs that has more dire results for humanity.

He did claim that "all immigrant/dissidents" that come from such Communist regimes and speak the truth about those regimes are "lackeys of the U.S.", and do not have any credence according to him...... which is a lie and an obvious racist bias.

Originally posted by StellarX
First hand experience can be very illuminating or it can reinforce bias beyond belief; we after all see reality how we are and not how it is... Your knowledge of these particular wars and leaders are lacking and apparently based entirely on Imperialist propaganda.

Oh i see...so my knowledge is lacking and yours is superior because apparently you also think Communism is "great"... Well, tell you what...the facts say otherwise buddy and you can't deny the facts...

Originally posted by StellarX
You can be "for the people' and be a dictator and actually do more for them than they would have managed by democracy decided based on who has most money. I am no supporter of autocratic rule but your reasoning is patently illogical.

We were talking about "specific" dictatorships...

Originally posted by StellarX
Well if it comes to intellectual prowess i hardly need look at his name to discover where he stands in relation to those who have attacked him on this topic.

Stellar

Wow, i guess that's it...that is the proof that contradicts what i stated....

[edit on 3-11-2006 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by Muaddib[i/]

Do tell me in what Communist country have people been able to live as well off as the average American or European person?...

What were we just talking about? I feel like I am talking to myself here. Why is Cuba poor? Because Castro is stealing all your money? His #1 potential trading partner closed its doors. You can continue to ignore that fact, but your argument is pretty silly without that admission.

The regime of Cuba makes deals with other countries, and those deals are done just to help castro and his thugs get richer, it doesn't help the regular people.

Source? Can you at least give specific details?

You have to have lived there to see what was the reason for the decline in Cuba.

Or we can read, watch, listen, and observe everything possible to formulate our own opinion. I know plenty of Cuban Americans who feel differently than you do. Your view point does not hold sole rights of exclusivity. Its an opinion, and I happen to disagree with it.

The regime of castro is very agressive against the Capitalist western countries, most so with the United States. The Cuban regime trains terrorists who fight against the United States Armed Forces, and their main goal is to "destroy Capitalism and mostly the United States"....

And after even a brief view of Cuban history I can understand why. I wouldn't call him aggressive, but he is definitely defiant and outspoken.

So tell me, which country in their right mind would trade with a regime whose main goal is the elimination of that country in any way possible?....

Well, only a country who is capable of realizing that the embargo against Cuba is not hurting the country itself, but rather it's people. I don't understand how someone with your background could support another day of that policy.

It does not matter whether or not the Cuban regime has enough power to accomplish this. The fact that it is trying to do this, and the fact that the Cuban regime trains known terrorists, harbors terrorists including terrorists who have had to flee the United States because in cases they have murdered someone, or partook in terrorist attacks in the U.S., is enough reasons for the United States not to have any deals with the Cuban government.

Throwing the "T" word around will not tilt this debate in your favor my friend.

The suffering, hunger, and injustices that are happening in Cuba are happening because castro and his regime only want to expand this regime to the world, which means more people would be living in the same conditions as most Cubans, and to do this they use the money they should be spending on the Cuban people on training terrorists, sending doctors to other countries when there are Cubans who do not have the proper medical attention because of a lack of medical supplies which go to other "revolutionary countries", and the fact that "Communism" only supresses the human spirit and does not give the people under such a regime basic human rights.

Chripes that a long sentence. Don has already posted statistics to counter your claim that the medical care in Cuba stinks. It is known worldwide as being one of the best. The lack of supplies...hmmm...embargo anyone?

That is the true reasons why the Cuban people are suffering, it is not because of the United States.

They play a huge role whether you will admit it or not. Putting your head in the sand will not make things go away. The embargo on Cuba needs to end. When it has I will be a little more inclined to buy how evil the gov't is. For now, everything I have read and everyone I have met blames economic hardship for 99% of the average Cuban's strife. Why is Cuba poor again? Because Castro has a stockpile of your money in his basement? He spent it all on cigars? I already posted an article stating that the rumors of his wealth were all derived from figures which counted the state owned businesses against those owned by the people. Do you understand why these numbers would be a misrepresentation of actual cash held by Castro in a communist system?



[edit on 3-11-2006 by DaFunk13]

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