On Patriotism - Why 11 Million Cubans Love Fidel

posted by dgtempe

DonWhite
You ignore my comments on purpose because you know I’m Cuban. You also will not address Muaddib. Is there a reason? You only address Americans or non-Cubans? Why?

I favor revolutions of the proletariat. I like to see the rich capitalists overthrown. People power. Suffering should be shared. Egalitarianism. I am not a praying person but if I were, I’d pray that Fidel lives at least past January 20, 2009. Fidel will have outlasted Ike, JFK, LBJ, RMN, GF, JC, RWR, B41, Clinton, and B43. Not bad for a commie? I aver Fidel knows more about American presidents than 99.44% of Americans!



[edit on 10/23/2006 by donwhite]

Thank you for addressing me.

To each their own. Your ideology is not mine, but you're entitled. That is what makes the world go 'round.

Evidently Cubans who left, about 2 million so far, do not agree with you. But to each his own.

This is not to say Cubans who left are dumb. You have radical points of view and i can deal with that.

No problem. Thank you.

posted by dgtempe

Thank you for addressing me. Your ideology is not mine, but you're entitled. Evidently Cubans who left, about 2 million so far, do not agree with you. This is not to say Cubans who left are dumb. You have radical points of view and I can deal with that. No problem. Thank you. [Edited by Don W]

I did not know as many as 2 million Cubans have come to America since 1959. I don’t doubt there are not 2 million people in America who give Cuba as their home of record, or who are descendants of people who left Cuba post 1959. I’m thinking the original out-flow was about 150-200,000. Over the years there have been another equal number, making a total of 300-400,000 who actually came here because of the Communist takeover. Popularly called “refugees” here mainly for domestic political purposes.

I have never said any refugees, whether Hungarian, Cuban, Vietnamese or Haitians, are “dumb.” Our government receives them or excludes them according to our own political objectives. And not their degree of need. I suppose every nation does that but we are hypocrites about it, claiming to have some overriding concern in the humane treatment of people. If it is our mission to export American style democracy, I want to see it in Darfur and quick.

I served in the Air Force during the Korean War and I believe it was fought for the right reason and in the correct manner. I opposed the Vietnam War from the first, because I knew enough of the area’s history to know we were backing the wrong side. I supported the First Gulf War for the same reasons I supported the Korean War, but I opposed this Second Punitive Expedition to Iraq (3/18/03) for the same reasons I opposed the Vietnam War. I opposed the War on Terrorism from the first day. I saw Bush43 co-opt the WTC tragedy to his own and the GOPs political gain. It saved his failing presidency. Without the WOT, Bush43 would have followed his father as a one termer.

Socialism is an economic system. Totalitarianism is a political system. Most of the successful socialist countries have been democratic. I suppose those include all of Europe and some others, too. All the totalitarian socialist systems have collapsed not because of the socialist part but because of the totalitarian part. Cuba is in between. China defies my definitions.

Socialism no longer means state ownership of the means of production as it did up to say, about 1955. Today it means assuring a level playing field in all economic realms and adequate social programs to make the safety net real and not theoretical or political double-speak. The good life, shared. And I thank you, Dgtempe.


[edit on 10/23/2006 by donwhite]

Originally posted by donwhite

Socialism is an economic system. Totalitarianism is a political system. Most of the successful socialist countries have been democratic. I suppose those include all of Europe and some others, too. All the totalitarian socialist systems have collapsed not because of the socialist part but because of the totalitarian part. Cuba is in between. China defies my definitions.

Socialism no longer means state ownership of the means of production as it did up to say, about 1955. Today it means assuring a level playing field in all economic realms and adequate social programs to make the safety net real and not theoretical or political double-speak. The good life, shared. And I thank you, Dgtempe.

You have voted donwhite for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

Bravo my man...bravo.

donwhite. All I am asking is that you quote me completely. Whether or not we agree is really not the issue (not this one anyway.) given our views I doubt well agree on much aside from agreeing to disagree.

I got a little miffed...and I do apologize. When you edited me the first time, it seemed to me that you changed the entire meaning of the first part of the post, and insulted my freinds who mean a very great deal to me. I overreacted, and again I apologize. Still buds?

posted by seagull

donwhite. All I am asking is that you quote me completely. Whether or not we agree is really not the issue (not this one anyway

.) given our views I doubt well agree on much aside from agreeing to disagree.

I got a little miffed...and I do apologize. When you edited me the first time, it seemed to me that you changed the entire meaning of the first part of the post, and insulted my freinds who mean a very great deal to me. I overreacted, and again I apologize. Still buds?

Positively!

You and Snafu are the only 2 who have questioned my practice to cut out material I do not want to respond to or which seems to me to be extraneous to my POV. Dgtempe said I was using too much bandwidth. I will try to reform.

Now, if you had not said anything, here is what I would have done to your post: “I am asking that you quote me completely . . it seemed to me you changed the meaning of the first part of the post . . I overreacted . . “

To which I reply, I’m sorry.
FINI


[edit on 10/24/2006 by donwhite]

Good Enough. I think we'll just agree to disagree on this particular topic. That prevents hard feelings from occuring.

So, Don, answer me this.

Are you a Communist? Please dont dance around the question. Its straightforward.

Thank you.

Originally posted by donwhite

Actually S/G, they can return to Cuba anytime they want, provided they do not act against the July 26 Revolution. The Cuban expatriates up here are for the most part the rich and famous and managers of the American and other foreign owned corporations that exploited the ordinary Cuban. The same kind of people who fled Hanoi to Saigon in Vietnam when the French were pushed out. Capitalist lackeys I call them.

They can only return with not a lot of fear for repraisal if they are legal residents or citizens of another country, just because being so they earn more money outside of Cuba and can bring more money into Cuba when these people visit or send money to their families, and even then the Cuban government can do whatever they want if they see fit. I became a naturalized American in 1997, yet if i go to Cuba, i am considered a "Cuban citizen" nomatter what. If I go to Cuba and speak, just speak my mind, no violence and no threatening comments against castro, in public I will find my way in jail really fast.

Second of all, as it has already been explained to you, most Cubans who have left the island are not and were not rich people keep your lies and propaganda for someone else who doesn't know the truth...

Originally posted by donwhite
I can think of 2 things Fidel did that Barista did not do. 1) ran the Mafia out of Havana. 2) Provided universal access to health care for all Cubans. Look in the CIA Factbook for statistics on health and compare to the US.

The CIA statistics comes from what the Cuban government claims....you actually think that there are CIA agents working in the Cuban government?....

and second...there is a lot more corruption now in Cuba, simply because people need to eat, and a lot of people will use children and women for slavery in poor countries than in Capitalist countries...

Originally posted by donwhite
The US fears this desire to run your own country will bring about July 26 movements all across the Western Hemisphere. As in Venezuela, Bolivia, Chile, Nicaragua and etc. The United States Marine Corps has always been the “enforcers” for the American capitalist in the Western Hemisphere.

My guess is that the U.S. does not want to see more aid coming out of Cuba to other communist/revolutionary countries which have a common goal of trying to destroy capitalism, and everything that the western world means, from every country....

What is it exactly some people claim the U.S. is trying to do to Cuba?.... I find it interesting that when non-western governments try to change the economic/democratic system in the west, some people claim "it is for the people", but when western countries use propaganda to change the minds of people in "communist/revolutionary countries" the same people call it "Imperialists trying to control the world"...

In Communist countries "the people" do not run those countries, it is only a few people who make it to the top and make sure they stay there always, or as long as they can live...

[edit on 24-10-2006 by Muaddib]

Thank you both DG and seagull. I kind of like leaving the facts known, instead of allowing any propagandas and lies to flourish.

donwhite is entitled to his "opinion" nomatter how wrong they might be, and I find it strange that someone who "believes in giving power to the people" will choose a name that means "being above the proletariat", but again that's just me. "Don" is a Spanish word which is given as a title only to people with lands and priviledges above the common people.

Noun 1. Don - a Spanish title of respect for a gentleman or nobleman

www.thefreedictionary.com...

Again, i could be wrong...

[edit on 24-10-2006 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by Muaddib
If I go to Cuba and speak, just speak my mind, no violence and no threatening comments against castro, in public I will find my way in jail really fast.

.

You may also find yourself dead really fast.

Don hasnt answered my question. Is he a Communist? I believe he is. Anyone who admires Castro the way he does, has to be.

Also, Don, where do you get your information from?

Originally posted by donwhite
..............
Socialism is an economic system. Totalitarianism is a political system. Most of the successful socialist countries have been democratic. I suppose those include all of Europe and some others, too. All the totalitarian socialist systems have collapsed not because of the socialist part but because of the totalitarian part. Cuba is in between. China defies my definitions.

Socialism no longer means state ownership of the means of production as it did up to say, about 1955. Today it means assuring a level playing field in all economic realms and adequate social programs to make the safety net real and not theoretical or political double-speak. The good life, shared. And I thank you, Dgtempe.

Really?...if Socialist/democratic countries have been so successful, could you tell us why there have been more "violent oposition and violent demonstrations from immigrants, and second/third generation immigrants in socialist/democratic countries such as those in Europe, than in say the "U.S"?....

Are you trying to change the facts about what has been happening, even as we speak/write?...



[edit on 24-10-2006 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by donwhite


I did not know as many as 2 million Cubans have come to America since 1959. I don’t doubt there are not 2 million people in America who give Cuba as their home of record, or who are descendants of people who left Cuba post 1959. I’m thinking the original out-flow was about 150-200,000. Over the years there have been another equal number, making a total of 300-400,000 who actually came here because of the Communist takeover. Popularly called “refugees” here mainly for domestic political purposes.

Not even close, officially there are about 800,000 Cubans in the U.S., and those are the ones who are legal residents, there are many Cubans who came mostly in the 80s and are still "not officially residents of the U.S."

i know this because one of my uncles came to the U.S. in the 80's and there are many like him who have finally gotten their residency not too long ago, because of a law of ajustment for those who came in the 80's which does not longer exist and people who came at that time could ask for residency for the last time some months ago or so. There is probably quite a few that still have not become "official residents".

[edit on 24-10-2006 by Muaddib]

posted by dgtempe

So, Don, answer me this. Are you a Communist? Please don’t dance around the question. Its straightforward. Thank you.

I've always been a Democrat, but I'm also a socially conscious person who believes the poor are exploited by the rich and that the rich control the government and use that control to their own advantage. Look at tax cuts every year, but no rise in the Minimum wage since 1997. Look at our health care system. America is the richest country in the world and we spend by far the most money on health care, but 46 million poor people do not have health care. Do you know that means? It means you die!

America has seen the top 1% own 50% of all the things of value. That is not good and it is not democracy in action. Some people say its fascist.


[edit on 10/24/2006 by donwhite]

I suppose I can chime in here...

One does not have to be communist to recognize the growing divide between the haves and the have-nots. When is the line drawn? The economic distribution is skewed way too far and is showing no signs of change...or at least change for the better. From what I can tell it is getting worse. Chomsky didn't have to tell me. Fanon doesn't have to motivate me to action. All I need to do is look around my own neighborhoods.

On topic though, I have nothing to add. Don obviously has a soft spot for the have-nots, as do I. It doesn't make us communist...it just means we care. He defends this position better than I can.

The question still stands... Why is it that "donwhite" is trying to "show the good things of Communism", where there are none, and why is it that he is not addressing the fact that "socialist/democratic" countries are having a lot more problems with poor immigrants making violent demonstrations, and in the overall using violence to protest what they see as a system which is not working in Europe more so than in countries like the U.S.?....

Yet "donwhite" wants to downplay these facts and wants to claim that "Communism is good and people in Cuba love castro" when this is not even close to the truth and it is known that the Cuban regime is one of the most repressive governments in the world against it's own population?....

posted by Muaddib

The question still stands . . Why is it that "donwhite" is trying to "show the good things of Communism" where there are none . . “ [Edited by Don W]

To respond to your first question, Muaddib, because I am neither an ideologue nor a sycophant. And I was born with a healthy supply of skepticism. Unlike the savages that are rampant in Africa, all too often with aid or of the blessing of the American government - as in Darfur where we are trading lives for stale information on OBL - many communist dictators of the second half of the 20th century tried to improve conditions in their countries. Yugoslavia's Tito is the best example. Ho Chi Minh is another. As did also Mr. Castro. The United States is 95% responsible for the deplorable conditions in Cuba.

“ . . and why is it that he is not addressing the fact that "socialist democratic" countries are having a lot more problems with poor immigrants making violent demonstrations, and in the overall using violence to protest what they see as a system which is not working in Europe more so than in countries like the U.S.?

First, Muaddib, because it is not directly relevant to a discussion of Cuba post 1959. Despite our weaknesses which are plentiful, the US has assimilated immigrants from every country on the planet, over the years since it was first colonized. 1607 or 1583. We are struggling today with Latinos from Mexico and Central America. We have earlier granted an amnesty, which we will do again. We have no choice. But we’ll do it. And in a generation or two, those people will be incorporated into our culture, we gaining from them, they gaining from us. European countries in contrast, are largely homogeneous whereas we are largely heterogenous. That fact along with the really large cultural differences are the root causes of the problems faced in Europe. But I believe those too, will be overcome. We do, after all, live in one world.

Yet "donwhite" wants to downplay these facts and wants to claim that "Communism is good and people in Cuba love Castro" when this is not even close to the truth and it is known that the Cuban regime is one of the most repressive governments in the world against it's own population?

Like it or not, Muaddib, the CIA World Factbook is the best source of information available to Americans. Despite my own complaints about the activities of the CIA, I am willing to accept these numbers as being “rather accurate.”

The Cuban’s average age is 35.9 yrs. Contrast that with Malawi, of recent Madonna adoption notoriety, at 16.5 years. The US is 36.5 years. Spain is even deeper into demographic problems at 39.9 years. (Iraq is 19.7.) The Cuban population is slow growing, too, its estimated rate being 0.31% per year. Barely adding 35,000 people a year. Iraq is at 2.66% (adding 665,000 a year) and the US is at 0.91%, much higher than the UK, at 0.28%. What’s it all mean? High growth rate means lots of cheap labor, low growth rate puts the emphasis on education, technology and capital.

I mentioned earlier the overall success of the Cuba’s socialized medicine by reciting the two accepted indicators, 1) infant mortality, Cuba 6.22, US, 6.43 and 2) longevity or life expectancy, Cuba at 77.41, US at 77.85 years. And we spend more on health care in the US than the Cubans spend on everything! Literacy is given at 97%. National GDP in 2005 per CIA, $39 billion. GDP per capita, $3,500, unemployment is 1.9% again, 2005 est by CIA, but the US was given at 5.9%. Three times the rate of Cuba.

Cuba’s 4 largest trading partners are Holland, Canada, China and Spain in that order. Surprisingly the US is Cuba’s 4th largest source of imports, at 8.5% of the total. The size or number of men and women in Cuba’s armed forces is not given, but it is given that the annual military expenditure is $690 million or 1.8% of GDP. I estimate that would support an army of about 45,000 men and women. Made sizeable expense necessary by the constant harassment of Cuba by the CIA, despite the US agreeing not to do this as part of the settlement with the USSR in the 1962 missile crisis. And Cuba's vivid memory of the CIA’s 1961 Bay of Pigs fiasco. Stupid efforts at poisoned cigars and etc. to assassinate Fidel. The CIA is not a good word in the Western Hemisphere south of the Rio Grande.

I will not do your work for you, Mr Muaddib, but if you care to compare Cuba to other impoverished countries around the world and especially the Central American republics, you can do it at this link:
www.cia.gov...

Finally, if you have time you may watch a number of good scholarly discussions of world affairs on CSpan2 this weekend. You can find the schedule at booktv.org, and may I recommend the following to you:
Saturday, 4 PM, “How Bush43 Rules;” 6 PM, “Mt. Rushmore;” 8 PM, “Temptation of Power;” Sunday, 1 AM, “Unconventional War;” 9 AM, “Bush43 Hubris & the Iraq War;” 10 AM, “America to Rule the World;” 11:30 AM, “Target Iran;” 1 PM, “War Powers in the War on Terror;” and 7 PM, “Thomas Paine.” Try it, Muaddib, you’ll like it.


[edit on 10/26/2006 by donwhite]

Muaddib, say what?

Statement. I’m watching the World Series on WGN, the super station on my local cable provider. The Christian Children’s Fund advertises a lot. They say 27,000 children around the world die every day, from starvation or diseases exacerbated by malnutrition. That number is equal to a re-inforced American Army Division. Every day. I have posted this at least 20 times on ATS, but I have never received even a passing acknowledgment nor any commentary whether that is a good thing - population control - or a bad thing - to deny any human being the opportunity to be fully participatory in the goings-on around the world. That sounds so callous. And definitely un-Christlike.

Q. Why is that?



[edit on 10/26/2006 by donwhite]

No question remains?... Are you implying then that what we all know has been happening in many wonderfull socialist/democratic governments in Europe as of late with all the immigrants and 2nd/3rd generation immigrants living in those European societies has never really happened?

Originally posted by donwhite

To respond to your first question, Muaddib, because I am neither an ideologue nor a sycophant. And I was born with a healthy supply of skepticism. Unlike the savages that are rampant in Africa, all too often with aid or of the blessing of the American government - as in Darfur where we are trading lives for stale information on OBL -

Really? so you are not an ideoloque who was posting obvious lies and exagerations about "Communism", and trying to advocate that system as something wonderful and good for the common folk. A system which actually has caused the most death, suffering and destruction than all other economic systems on Earth "combined"?...

Humm, i must have been mistaken.

Originally posted by donwhite
many communist dictators of the second half of the 20th century tried to improve conditions in their countries. Yugoslavia's Tito is the best example. Ho Chi Minh is another. As did also Mr. Castro.

Oohh...so now you are trying to hide the facts behind these "communist dictators".... again?....

They must have been the most wonderful people in the world... i mean the Communist regimes combined murdered over...humm, lets see, over 1 million people, that we know of, murdered by Tito's forces in conjunction with the red Army, which murdered anyone who disagreed with Tito and oposed him, including ethnic Germans, other Communists, and Yugoslavs who disagreed with Tito, many of which were executed just for disagreeing with him....... and not to mention the people who were deported to Yugoslav and Soviet labor camps....

Let's see, almost 62 million people murdered in the Soviet Gulag State...
Over 35 million murdered by the Communist Chinese Ant Hill...

Only those three Communist regimes murdered almost 100 million people, and i am not mentioning the people murdered by other Communist regimes, nor the millions that have been imprisoned, and have suffered because of the wonderful Communists...

Yes, i guess you are right....they were wonderful people...and please don't even start with castro....

Originally posted by donwhite

The United States is 95% responsible for the deplorable conditions in Cuba.

False...castro is 99% responsible for "the deplorable conditions in Cuba".... but I guess you think so wonderfully of castro because he was a nobel prize nominee of Norway's Socialist Left Party...

Oh, but lets not forget the other past "nobel prize nominees" which have also included Adolf Hitler, Josef Stalin, and Benito Mussolini...

Who knew...they must really have been the most wonderful people in the world...

[edit on 26-10-2006 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by donwhite

I've always been a Democrat, but I'm also a socially conscious person who believes the poor are exploited by the rich and that the rich control the government and use that control to their own advantage.

Right... and advocating lies and propaganda about the most horrible economic system in the world is going to help the "poor people" how exactly?.....

Originally posted by donwhite
Look at tax cuts every year, but no rise in the Minimum wage since 1997. Look at our health care system.

and Communist countries, like Cuba, have an average income of less than $3,000 a year...and that is according to the information released by the Cuban government...unless you want to claim now that U.S. agencies are working very closely with Cuban authorities, and they are allowed to roam freely and take surveys on the streets of Cuba....

Originally posted by donwhite
America is the richest country in the world and we spend by far the most money on health care, but 46 million poor people do not have health care. Do you know that means? It means you die!

All nations in the world have poor people, all of them, and as a matter of fact Communist nations have most of the population as "the poorest people on Earth"....

and again, even though you tried to paint "socialist/democracies" as also wonderful nations which stand beside the poor and the poor are very well represented and taken care of.... you still want to avoid the fact that many "socialist/democracies" in Europe have been having lots of problems in the past years and even recently with immigrants and 2nd/3rd generation immigrants resorting to violence because they say they are being opressed, they can't find jobs, etc, etc..... something which has not happened in the U.S. in that scale for some reason...

Originally posted by donwhite
America has seen the top 1% own 50% of all the things of value. That is not good and it is not democracy in action. Some people say its fascist.

Could you present us with links to back your claims please?....

Oh and lets not forget, you and most people in these forums have a lot more than most people in Communist countries, you would be considered as a "rich person".... so you should be selling your computer and all your possesions to help the poor....why are you spending money on an internet connection and a computer?...

[edit on 26-10-2006 by Muaddib]