On Patriotism - Why 11 Million Cubans Love Fidel

To Dgtempe and Parrhesia and Mauddib

Introduction. I assume without knowing that none of you have ever been to Cuba. Mauddib whose posts consume more space but offer less content and now another quarter is heard from by Parrhesia. Dgtempe writes her own materials and asks me important questions. Which I feel obliged to reply to, because it is apparent to me that she truly loves Cuba and wants everyone who reads her posts to love Cuba. Further, Dgtempe unlike my other two co-respondents, sticks to issues about which she should know whereas my other fellow writers recite what other people have said and in Mauddib’s case, said in regard to issues that no longer exist. It makes me think both Parrhesia and Mauddib are more anti-Castro than they are pro-Cuba. Which reminds me most of Iraq's Ahmand Chalabi.

Sugar was the curse of Cuba. Cuba was a colony of Spain from 1492 until 1898. Longer than 400 years. I suppose all the natives living on the island in Columbus’ time had died. Cubans revolted against Spain many times but the superior armaments of the Spanish had always defeated them. By the late 19th century, America’s opinion makers, like William Randolph Hearst of newspaper fame, wanted America to join the other European power in building an oversea’s empire.

Feeling genuine sympathy for the plight of native Cubans clearly imposed on them by force of arms by the Spanish, the US looked south. Using the explosion on the battleship Maine - later found to have been a coal dust explosion unrelated to the Spanish - the United States declared war on Spain. Sort of an earlier WMDs thing.

Cuban rebels thought they would at last be free! Mistake. Spanish sugar industry overlords were soon replaced by American sugar industry overlords. Sugar was too valuable to leave to the poor people of the world like Cubans and Haitians. America stayed in Cuba from 1898 to 1959, by using local surrogates to carry out our foreign policy.

When Fidel Castro managed to overthrow Fulgencio Batista who fled Cuba on December 31, 1958, the Cuban people were overjoyed! Fidel was welcomed to America and spoke to the United Nations. I am sure the United States had a “heart to heart” talk with Fidel. No doubt we explained to Fidel that “he could lead” Cuba provided he protected American capital investments, and would see to it that the sugar workers continued business as usual. That is, the workers would not be agitating for more pay and less work in safer conditions. This American dictation did not go down well with Fidel. That would basically mean all his labors to be rid of Batista would be in vain. That Cuba was trading one master for yet another, one more time.

Depending on your perspective, either fortunately or unfortunately, the USSR was casting about for someone in the Western Hemisphere to embarrass the United States. America had already overthrown the first democratically elected president of Guatemala, Jacabo Arbenz Guzman in 1954. Social democracies in the Western Hemisphere were not to be tolerated by the United States.

Make no mistake, Fidel has been in America’s gun sights since the ridiculous failed attempt at Playa Giron - Bay of Pigs - in 1961. Fidel has proved to America’s chagrin, not only to have lasted longer but also he was smarter than Salvador Allende of Chile who was murdered in 1973.

The United States of America is 99% responsible for all of the deplorable conditions you are describing in Cuba. I cannot hold sympathy for your point of view until you at least admit to yourselves, there is a lot of truth in what I say. I argue American foreign policy, and you respond by telling me how poor conditions on the ground are. We’re both right, but you are fighting the wrong enemy. Cubans in America are puppets on our string.

People like me, who want to see conditions for the common man get better, were excited in 1991, when Mikhail Gorbachev peacefully presided over the dismembering of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republic. An occasion that got for him the Nobel Peace Prize and well deserved. An occurrence almost unique in world history!

I saw America’s 1991 “defense” budget at $300 billion, ready to be cut in half. That would free up over $100 billion a year to use in bringing clean water to 1 billion people on earth who do not have clean water. Money to help build a better world. It would give us money to spend at home for education and maybe even that taboo, health care. I could see the reward for 45 years of national sacrifice realized!

But alas, that was not to be. Saddam Hussein took advantage of the new geopolitical conditions in the Middle East and invaded Kuwait. Peace-niks like me were disparaged by America’s war-mongers. We had an enemy to justify our large and getting larger “defense” budgets. Do any of you wonder why I keep putting “defense” in quotes? Truth is, war is more popular in America than peace.
And that’s a tragedy.


[edit on 10/31/2006 by donwhite]

Don.

I was born and raised in Havana. I was there long enough to understand. I was pulled out of the best private school because it became an indoctrination camp for Castros kids. The school was taken over, like everything else by Castro. My mother and father did not want me saluting Castros image, or dressing in a military uniform with a RED scarf.
We were upper class in Cuba, had a fabulous home and my father owned a lumber business. That was all taken away by Castro. Then came the lack of food, lack of everything. Russia started trading with Castro and sending bogus canned meat that my mother refused to cook.
We had money, but nothing to spend it on, and no food anywhere. Those who spoke ill of Castro were HUNG back then- my own couisin was hung for saying something untoward about Castro. All it took was him saying he didnt like the regime and a couple of people turned him in.
I have relatives WHO ARE STARVING and my family sends them whatever they can to get them by.
THIS IS A FIRST HAND ACCOUNT of what goes on there. There is no food, except for the "libreta" which you show at a market and they hand you what you are entittled to, and you better make it last all month. As i understand it, you may get 2 chickens a month, potatoes, rice and not much more. That's for a large family!!!

Its heaven alright. Until you have been in our shoes, there is absolutely no way you can conceive the oppression there, and to pretend you can because you read books, is just not fair.
We had to give our home to Castro as payment for leaving the island. All our clothes, everything in the house....everything you owned and worked hard for, also any business you have is no longer yours.

This is paradise? BTW, Muaddib is also Cuban and he will tell you the same thing.
We left at about the same time.

I have the feeling you dont read our posts. Try to understand where we come from. We want that tyrant dead. For all the suffering he has caused.
If he were to die today, there would be celebrations amongst the exiles. Those who remain in Cuba are BRAINWASHED and dont know better, except for the older people who knew the good life before Castro.

I don't think you are reading HIS posts, DG. Don has already said that 99% of the poor conditions you experienced are due to the US embargo. How can we even have this discussion when you fail to admit that it wasn't Castro stockpiling all your goods but rather Uncle Sam keeping a foot on your people's neck as some sick punishment that continues to this day?

I can completely agree that it is a bit sick to raise children in schools to be little communist revolutionaries. At the same time I can see why it would be necessary to the survival of communist Cuba. Its also unfortunate you were forced to give up your things. I can't even imagine the effect this would have on a child. We aren't saying that everything is okie-dokie in Cuba...it's not. We do need to be sure that we place blame where it is due, and not fall victim to age-old propaganda and smear campaigns.

Lets do our best to keep level-headed. Its an easy situation to escalate into an emotional slugfest. I think we could all learn some very valuable lessons from this discussion at both sides of the table.

I apologize for thinking your commentary was not based on personal experiences. I do not mean to denigrate sacrifices made by people in the past, but - yes, but - making revolutions is like making sausage, bloody. Converting a society from a capital oriented system to a social oriented system is not easy nor is it usually welcomed by those who are called upon to give up a way of life.

I personally cannot do anything about the tragedy in Cuba, nor in Darfur, nor in a dozen other places on-going around the world today as I write. To the extent the United States is involved in making or allowing the existence of, such tragedies, I do complain.

I wish you well.




[edit on 10/31/2006 by donwhite]

Observe:

Patrice Émery Lumumba (2 July 1925 – 17 January 1961) was an African anti-colonial leader and the first legally elected Prime Minister of the Democratic Republic of the Congo after he helped to win its independence from Belgium in June 1960. Only ten weeks later, Lumumba's government was deposed in a coup during the Congo Crisis. He was subsequently imprisoned and assassinated under controversial circumstances in January 1961. Patrice Lumumba continues to serve as a significant inspirational figure in the Congo as well as throughout Africa.

Your government at work. The Dulles brothers. Another CIA operation. Look at the DRC today. It had one good chance to become a good place to live, work and raise a family. That was taken away by the CIA. Say thank you, Ike. Reflect: Iran, Guatemala, Cuba and Congo. Under “I Like Ike” the CIA was batting 3 out of 4. [The Bay of Pigs was also a Dulles Brothers "I like Ike" plot.] [America was also implicated in the failed Hungarian Revolt of 1956.]

In early November, 1963, America now under JFK, the Diem brothers were assassinated in Vietnam. And then under Nixon the CIA “got” Salvador Allende of Chile in 1974. Assassinated. In Nicaragua, in 1979, the people voted into office the Sandinistas, over the American choice, Gen. Anistasio Somoza.

Then followed under Ronnie Reagan, the Iran Contra Scandal in which the White House ignored the legal prohibition to send arms the so-called Contras in Nicaragua. The anti-democrats forces beholden to American corporate interests. Only Fidel has managed to survive. For that alone, I’d recommend him for the Congressional Medal of Freedom.

www.gwu.edu...


[edit on 10/31/2006 by donwhite]

Originally posted by donwhite
Only Fidel has managed to survive. For that alone, I’d recommend him for the Congressional Medal of Freedom.

[edit on 10/31/2006 by donwhite]

Wow recommending Fidel for a Medal of Freedom. As dgtempe said her cousin was hanged for speaking out against Fidel. Seems like a winner to me. Hell lets give him a Nobel Peace Prize while were at it. Since he is the maker of "paradise".

I always love to hear what you have to say donwhite you are a very interesting person but really just because he hasn't fallen to the "evil capitalist empire" does not entitle him to an award. I could name a million more people more deserving than him.

Originally posted by donwhite

The United States of America is 99% responsible for all of the deplorable conditions you are describing in Cuba. I cannot hold sympathy for your point of view until you at least admit to yourselves, there is a lot of truth in what I say. I argue American foreign policy, and you respond by telling me how poor conditions on the ground are. We’re both right, but you are fighting the wrong enemy. Cubans in America are puppets on our string.


[edit on 10/31/2006 by donwhite]

I'm sorry but isn't it the goverments responsibility to feed their own people.

"Cubans in America are puppets on our string. " Why because they want a better life so they are puppets of evil capitalists.

You also said that if we cut our defense budget we could give thristy people water. Where do stand?? It seems you want an isolationalism foreign policy for America then you want us to go and give a billion people water. Shouldn't we stay out of their affairs like you were saying. We are the evil of the world aren't we that will eventually fall to the downtrodden workers who will then be starved under a repressive regime. Ah what a glorious future awaits us.

posted by spinstopshere

posted by donwhite
The US is 99% responsible for the deplorable conditions in Cuba. I argue American foreign policy, and you respond by telling me how poor conditions on the ground are. We’re both right, but you are fighting the wrong enemy. [Edited by Don W]

I'm sorry but isn't it the government responsibility to feed their own people. You said that if we cut our defense budget we could give thirsty people water. Where do you stand? It seems you want an isolationism foreign policy for America then you want us to go and give a billion people water.

OK, good Q. Let me explain. I’m not for military intervention. I believe the various poor countries would welcome us if we brought farm tractors instead of tanks or armored Humvees. Well drilling equipment instead of land mines. Local health clinics instead of regional strong-points. US foreign aid usually means F16s for the ruling elite.

Back home we get only the big numbers but do not realize our “aid” is not “aiding” the ordinary man on the street. Usually we are reinforcing the ability of the ruling (and cooperating) elite to stay in power to keep the ordinary citizens in submission to American foreign policy.

Shouldn't we stay out of their affairs like you were saying. We are the evil of the world aren't we that will eventually fall to the downtrodden workers who will then be starved under a repressive regime. Ah what a glorious future awaits us. [Edited by Don W]

We make our own beds. We know what needs to be done. We just don’t have the will to do it. We could not defeat the idea of a foreigner -free Vietnam. We are not defeating an idea of an occupier-out Iraq. Ideas are more powerful than M16s. When will we learn?


[edit on 10/31/2006 by donwhite]

Originally posted by donwhite

To Dgtempe and Parrhesia and Mauddib

Introduction. I assume without knowing that none of you have ever been to Cuba.

Don't even try to claim now that "you didn't know we are Cubans"...because you are obviously lying, or you did not read anything DG and I posted.

I wonder if you can even read what people post. I did say that "you" resorted to degrading "us", DG, other Cubans and myself... I was born in Cuba and saw what that system has done to the country, my family and the rest of the people. I was able to visit again in 2001 for 3 months and lived with my family there during that time. Only with dollars could we take my family to "tourist shops" which are stocked with everything you can find in walmart stores in the U.S., but those are reserved only for tourists. You can bring a couple of family members with you, but Cubans can't go alone to those stores.

The same story goes for hospitals, the hospitals that are for "tourists" are well equiped and have the latest of technologies which regular Cuban citizens do not enjoy.

Originally posted by donwhite

Mauddib whose posts consume more space but offer less content and now another quarter is heard from by Parrhesia.

Humm...really?... lets see, i was born in Cuba, i went to school in Cuba, was indoctrinated like any other children to believe the lies you adore so much, and found out the truth of Communism by seeing my two sisters being sent every summer to work camps where we could only visit on Sunday for a little while. My sisters were crying everytime we saw them on Sunday, begging my parents to take them with them, but if my parents tried to take my sisters home, the Communist system you adore so much would have completly taken my sisters away from us...

Pretty much everything I have said comes from personal experience, which you obviously do not have

My guess is that the only ignorant person who is not giving anything that is worth to read in this thread it is you.

[edit on 31-10-2006 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by DaFunk13
I don't think you are reading HIS posts, DG. Don has already said that 99% of the poor conditions you experienced are due to the US embargo. How can we even have this discussion when you fail to admit that it wasn't Castro stockpiling all your goods but rather Uncle Sam keeping a foot on your people's neck as some sick punishment that continues to this day?

and i don't think you understand that the problem in Cuba has always been castro's regime... castro and his thugs are rich people, tourists, politicians, and others who praise castro have the best treatment, all the food and entertainment that the modern world can offer and much more...but i guess it is alright for castro and his thugs to be rich and have everything while the people have nothing, and btw the United States is not the one responsible for this... pretty much since 59 things went from bad to worse every year as castro's grip tightened on Cuba.

This is what happens in every Communist country in the world, but some people are trying to blame "The United States" for the problems caused by the worse economic/political system the world has ever known.

But once in a while you get some people like donwhite who thinks that "Communism is the best thing in the world", but the fact is that it is not. Communism only opresses people and brings suffering to whole nations.

[edit on 31-10-2006 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by donwhite

To Dgtempe and Parrhesia and Mauddib

Introduction. I assume without knowing that none of you have ever been to Cuba. Mauddib whose posts consume more space but offer less content and now another quarter is heard from by Parrhesia. Dgtempe writes her own materials and asks me important questions. Which I feel obliged to reply to, because it is apparent to me that she truly loves Cuba and wants everyone who reads her posts to love Cuba. Further, Dgtempe unlike my other two co-respondents, sticks to issues about which she should know whereas my other fellow writers recite what other people have said and in Mauddib’s case, said in regard to issues that no longer exist. It makes me think both Parrhesia and Mauddib are more anti-Castro than they are pro-Cuba.

You make some pretty big assumptions, don and you're wrong on all them. I'm not saying anything other writers have written, at least to my knowledge. I'm sharing what I have experienced myself while in Cuba. Not what I've read or heard others say, but what I've seen with my own two eyes.

Mr Parrhesia

I apologize for not knowing you have lived in Cuba. It’s my fault. Sorry about that.

I have written critically about the pre-Castro regime in Cuba. Gangsters, poor working conditions, scant health care, low literacy rates, and so on. I have written favorably about Cuba’s current government. In America, the Cuban government is frequently linked to one man, Fidel Castro . The Castro regime. We use that form of address pejoratively. We don’t refer to the UK as the “Blair regime.” We reserve that for government we don’t like.

Several fellow posters have taken me to task for saying anything good about the Castro government. Most often I compare the heath care statistics to those of the United States. For example, Cuba has a lower infant death mortality rate than the US. That statistic implies the level of health care provided in pre-natal, birthing and post-natal environment. Iceland as you might expect, has a much lower IM rate, 3.29. India on the other hand, has a 54.63 IM rate The IM statistic means the number of children who die before age 1, per 1000 live births. The US spends either 14% or 18% of its GDP on health care, depending on who is speaking. It is often said we spend $5,500 a year, for every man woman and child, on health care. We do spend about 50% more than any other country no matter how you count it. Cuba OTOH has a GDP per person of only $3,500.

So my logical question is, “How come Cuba does better on the IM rate than the US, when we spend more on health care than Cubans make?” To which question none of my critics ever reply. I also have posted the life expectancy numbers (longevity) for the US and Cuba. The US beats Cuba there it is true, but only by 4 moths! 120 days. Iceland beats both, with 80.31 years and India loses to both, with 64.71 years. The US and Cuba are 77+ years. Those are the 2 statistics that are used to gain a rough overall impression of a country’s health care delivery system.

So, I ask, if life in Cuba is so bad, if the people are starving as my critics allege, how come they live so long? As in the infant mortality case, my critics remain silent. They remain silent because the numbers belie their claims. My critics have financial reasons and religious reasons for not liking Fidel Castro. But they have offered none to very few current facts to show me why I ought not to like Fidel Castro. I’m waiting.



[edit on 11/1/2006 by donwhite]

Originally posted by donwhite

posted by spinstopshere

posted by donwhite
The US is 99% responsible for the deplorable conditions in Cuba. I argue American foreign policy, and you respond by telling me how poor conditions on the ground are. We’re both right, but you are fighting the wrong enemy. [Edited by Don W]

I'm sorry but isn't it the government responsibility to feed their own people. You said that if we cut our defense budget we could give thirsty people water. Where do you stand? It seems you want an isolationism foreign policy for America then you want us to go and give a billion people water.

OK, good Q. Let me explain. I’m not for military intervention. I believe the various poor countries would welcome us if we brought farm tractors instead of tanks or armored Humvees. Well drilling equipment instead of land mines. Local health clinics instead of regional strong-points. US foreign aid usually means F16s for the ruling elite.

[edit on 10/31/2006 by donwhite]

A nice answer don. Yet it would probably not work. If we went and drilled wells in the middle east they would be thinking " oh those americans must act like we need help like we are incapable of doing these simple things without their help. " No nation wants to feel second class by having another country do the basic things the ruling goverment should be capable of. Same thing in Darfur. They refuse to allow peace keepers in because either for their distrust of the west and they do not to feel second class by having other countries help them or most likely both of those reasons. You can also apply the same thing to Iraq and Afghanistan. I'm pretty sure alot of them have some sort of gratitude but every one wants them gone. I do to. We should have put more men in to quickly crush the insurgents then put more in to quickly rebuild and leave. That would have by far been the right answer and we should do that now.

[edit on 1-11-2006 by spinstopshere]

This, i agree with. It has always been the case and its not due to Fidel feeding and caring for anyone.

Cubans, as Europeans do, have a more sedentary way of life. Period.

I never heard of anyone dying in Cuba in my youth because of heart decease, stroke, etc. It is either genetic, combined with as i said before, a more sedentary way of life. No stress.
You keep a job for life, for starters (at least it used to be that way)- no politics.
You may worry now about how to feed your children, but besides that, everything is always very laid back and easy. It is the Cuban way of life, and the life, i, myself will always long for.

Have you taken a look BEFORE Castro at the longevity of Cubans? You should.
It has always been this way- so read up on it.

Cubans come to the United States and start dropping off like flies, exactly as people do here. Why? Because the way of life here must be adopted.

Its not because the health care system is so superior in Cuba, Don. Trust me.

Spinstophere, he was talking about aid to allies, or countries that "play ball." He wasn't talking about giving these things instead of dropping bombs, he meant giving countries these things instead of giving them their own bombs...big difference.

posted by dgtempe

This, I agree with. It has always been the case and its not due to Fidel feeding and caring for anyone. Cubans, as Europeans do, have a more sedentary way of life. Period. Have you taken a look BEFORE Castro at the longevity of Cubans? You should. It has always been this way- so read up on it. Cubans come to the United States and start dropping off like flies, exactly as people do here. Why? Because the way of life here must be adopted. Its not because the health care system is so superior in Cuba, Don. Trust me.

1) No. I don't know where to find such numbers. I'm not sure the protocol we use today was in place and I don’t know where those numbers would have been stored.

2) I did not mean to say Cuba’s health care delivery system was better than the US. What I did mean to say was that whatever system they use it is producing results comparable to those in the US for about 1/15th the cost.

It is probably obvious why they have a longer life span. The reason is that they have no mc donalds in Cuba and they do not have the luxury of eating choclates or soda unless it is sent to them.

Though you probably don't want to put a hamburger in a box for a week and then eat it.

Originally posted by DaFunk13
Spinstophere, he was talking about aid to allies, or countries that "play ball." He wasn't talking about giving these things instead of dropping bombs, he meant giving countries these things instead of giving them their own bombs...big difference.

Why should we only help allies. I thought that many people learn that you should be as nice to your enemies as you are to you friends.

And when did i ever say anything about dropping bombs.

If you give them bombs or food both help a countries people stay alive so where is the "big difference". Bread can fead a person and a bomb can save a person from being killed. Both can save a life.

You can have all the food you could ever need and have no weapons. Then you are a ripe target for a country that has no food and tons of weapons NK for example. What is stopping them and what do you have to stop them. Send in men with tomatoes.

[edit on 1-11-2006 by spinstopshere]

Cuba had hamburger joints which we call "fritas" loaded with fat as well as churros (fried dough) and Chinese food all over the place.

It is not the food. Not to mention the fact that everything is cooked in grease and lots of it.