On Patriotism - Why 11 Million Cubans Love Fidel

Originally posted by StellarX

Anyone who suggest that America has such is deluded in many more ways than one.

Really?... so there are no Communists in the U.S. and there are no professors teaching Communist ideals?......wow yep someone sure is deluded in more than one way....

Originally posted by StellarX
The only thing being spread in US colleges and Universities is more lies about the so called 'free market' ( free for the rich ; restricted for everyone else) and it's most certainly not being spread by liberals/socialist/communist as those were almost all worked out of the education system much earlier and finally during and shortly after the Vietnam war.

I smell another communist sympathyzer, amazing that after all the lies and deaths their beloved economic system has brought to the world, they still keep claiming "they are fighting for the people".... what a disgusting joke...

Originally posted by StellarX
Cuba is not a communist country and repeating the lie wont change that fact. It only turned for money and support to such sources because it had few other places to go that could protect it from US aggression and childish ( and less so) attempts at terror against Cuba.

Cuba is a Communist country, but proponents of Communism keep trying to claim it is not... i wonder why?.....maybe because they are ashamed their lie has not worked once again and it has brought nothing but death, suffering and destruction to entire nations?.....

Originally posted by StellarX
A 'good' person can do bad things ( especially when egged on by their local religious handler) just are surely as bad people can do great things. In my opinion Castro wanted to and would have done better by his people had he been presented with more opportunities but that's hard when the superpower next door hates your guts and wants to eradicate you, the people you lead, and everything you stand for from the face of the planet.

Riiight, keep blaming the U.S. for the crimes committed by the Cuban regime... These days people don't want to be accountable for anything they do and want to blame someone else, criminals do this also, blaming society for their crimes....

Originally posted by StellarX
Murderer he is but why bother talking about the terror considering the terrorist next door who has been trying to sabotage his every action? Are we sure you would get locked up for just admitting that you dislike the president if you do not actually engage in plots against him?

Ah again, trying to blame and claim the United States "is the worse terrorist regime"....

Am i sure that I would be harrassed by his thugs and go to jail for speaking against him in public?... yes i am, even if i am a naturalized U.S. citizen, in Cuba the regime considers me "a Cuban citizen", and Cuban citizens get harassed and are political prisoners for speaking against castro in public.

Originally posted by StellarX
Interesting question but last i checked the USA had more political prisoners per 1 million than Cuba did.

Provide a reliable link to back your claim please.....

Originally posted by StellarX
This truth you talk about has little to do with truth as far as i understand it. If you want to talk about communism that's good as you have much to learn.

Stellar

i learnt about Communism by living in a Communist regime, and that's no lie, you trying to claim it is not, so people will think Communism is great is the lie... If anyone has to learn about Communism it is you, not I.

[edit on 3-11-2006 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by DaFunk13
What were we just talking about? I feel like I am talking to myself here. Why is Cuba poor? Because Castro is stealing all your money? His #1 potential trading partner closed its doors. You can continue to ignore that fact, but your argument is pretty silly without that admission.

Why is it that there are people who have never been in Cuba yet they want to claim "they know why the Cuban regime is a dictatorship and it is all the fault of the United States"?....

Don't try to treat me as a child, because the only people acting like children around here are obviously those who think they can come here make claims, lie, and get away with these lies as they try to make the worse economic system the Earth has ever known "a victim of the United States"...which coincidentally is the same motto Communists have... Communist always blame the united States for everything, including the horrors they have inflicted upon the world.

Perhaps you are not Communist, but some people around here do seem to want to "defend the system to whatever cost, including lying about it".

Originally posted by DaFunk13
Source? Can you at least give specific details?

I actually gave a source in this thread about one of the things the Communist regime is doing by training terrorists. The Cuban regime gets paid for these services...

Here it is again.

National

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sahara issue
Sahrawi children inhumanely treated in Cuba, former Cuban official

Morocco TIMES 3/31/2006 | 12:45 am


“Sahrawi children, who are sent to Cuba, followed military training and courses on making explosives,” testified one of the Cuban former officials, who made documentaries on the inhumane conditions of the Sahrawi children in Cuba, reported MAP news agency.

Some former Cuban senior officials confessed that children, who were snatched from their parents in Tindouf camps and deported to Cuban “Youth Island”, endured ill-treatment.

“These children followed military training and courses on the making of explosives,” said former Cuban instructor, Dariel Alarcon.

Dariel Alarcon, known as “Benigno”, testified in a documentary entitled “Cuba and Polisario Front: crime partners” that he was in charge of making Sahrawi children, barely nine years old, undergo a military training.
......................
The documentary, which indicated that 2,000 to 3,000 young Sahrawis are still in Cuba and hundreds of children are still being sent each year, talked about other abuses exerted by the Polisario, including the embezzlement of the international aids and the inhumane treatment of the Moroccan detainees in Tindouf camps.
.......................
The Moroccan delegation, composed of Saadani Maa Oulainine, Boussoula Mohammed Ebeya, Bachir Edkhil, Ali Najab and Ali Jaouhar, delivered poignant testimonies on the torture they endured during their detention in Tindouf camps.

www.moroccotimes.com...

Again, i am sure the Communist sympathizers will claim these African men who testified about what was done to them when they were sent to Cuba as children to become terrorists, are some sort of "U.S. propaganda"....

Now lets see what sort of people has the Communist regime been dealing with from 1991 - 2001.

1991-2001

ETA, a Spanish terrorist organization seeking a separate Basque homeland, established the Cuartel General (General Headquarters) in Havana.

A high-level PLO military delegation including the head of Intelligence paid a visit to Cuba.

On February 24, 1996, Cuban Air Force Migs shot down, in international waters, two small unarmed civilian planes belonging to Brothers to the Rescue, a Miami based group. All occupants were killed, including three American citizens.

The election of Abdelaziz Bouteflika (April 1999) as President of Algeria, opened new opportunities for Cuba, given Bouteflika's close relationship with the Cuban government for more than three decades.

PLO leaders continue to have close relations with the Cuban leadership, having access to specialized military and intelligence training, either in Cuba or Palestinian territory, and in the sharing of intelligence.

A spokesman for the Basque government in Spain met in Havana with two high level ETA terrorist taking refuge in Cuba, José Angel Urtiaga Martinez and Jesús Lucio Abrisqueta Corte.

Cuba continued to provide safe haven to several terrorists fugitives from the U.S. They include: Black Liberation Army leader Joanne Chesimard aka Assata Shakur, one of New Jersey's most wanted fugitives for killing a New Jersey State trooper in 1973 and Charlie Hill a member of the Republic of New Afrika Movement wanted for the hijacking of TWA 727 and the murder of a New Mexico State trooper

A number of Basque ETA terrorists who gained sanctuary in Cuba some years ago continued to live on the island, as did several Puerto Ricans members of the Machetero Group.

Castro refused to join the other Ibero-American heads of state in condemning ETA terrorism at the 2000 Ibero-American Summit in Panamá and slammed Mexico for its support of the Summit's statement against terrorism.

Castro continues to maintain ties to several state sponsors of terrorism in Latin America. Colombia's two largest terrorist organizations, the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC) and the National Liberation Army (ELN), both maintain a permanent presence on the island.

Colombian officials arrested IRA members Niall Connelly, Martin McCauley and James Monaghan and accused then of training the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC). Connelly had been living in Cuba as the representative of the IRA for Latin America.

Former Defense Department counter-terrorism expert John More told UPI that Cubans, militant Palestinians, Hezbollah and even advisors from the leftist government of Venezuela are all active in Colombia.

During the trial of several Cuban spies in Miami, one of the accused Alejandro Alonso revealed on December 30, 2000 that he was instructed from Havana to locate areas in South Florida "where we can move persons as well as things, including arms and explosives."

Speaking at Tehran University in Iran on May 10, 2001 Fidel Castro vowed that "the imperialist king will finally fall".

www.netforcuba.org...

Do you really want to claim that Cuba is not making money by providing safe haven and helping these terrorist organizations?....

Originally posted by DaFunk13
Well, only a country who is capable of realizing that the embargo against Cuba is not hurting the country itself, but rather it's people. I don't understand how someone with your background could support another day of that policy.

Because most Cubans know that doing so will only help castro's regime, and not the people...

Originally posted by DaFunk13
Chripes that a long sentence. Don has already posted statistics to counter your claim that the medical care in Cuba stinks. It is known worldwide as being one of the best. The lack of supplies...hmmm...embargo anyone?

Repressive regime anyone?.... Apparently you still can't understand that the Cuban regime has control over "statistics that come from the country.....


[edit on 3-11-2006 by Muaddib]

A simple fact of reality in a totalitarian regime:

one half of the population is paid off to police the other half of the population. That is why half the people will support the leader and the other half will hate him.

Next problem.

Originally posted by denythestatusquo
A simple fact of reality in a totalitarian regime:

one half of the population is paid off to police the other half of the population. That is why half the people will support the leader and the other half will hate him.

Next problem.

Is actually less than half of the population that is being paid to supress the other half. Some families have been turned against each other, as some people will betray relatives for the survival of their immediate family, or themselves.

Yes there are simpathizers of the regime, and they are all over the world, including as spies in the U.S.

I wouldn't rule out some of them posting in forums like this one trying to spread their lies and propaganda.

[edit on 3-11-2006 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by Muaddib
We are not just saying that Cuba is a poor country....it is a dictatorship that does not allow basic human rights to the people.

No basic human rights? What about the right to a roof over your head, medical care and schooling? At the very least these are basic admitted human rights in Cuba and it's striking that while they may not live up to that there are no such rights for anyone in the US or much of Europe.

Do tell me in what Communist country have people been able to live as well off as the average American or European person?...

That depends on what you mean by communist ( everything the US national security state decides is really including anything related to freedom that they can attack) but as far as i am concerned most of western Europe has distinct socialist trends which are as always under attack by global capitalism as spread by the central bankers of the world. You might want to look up Yugoslavia in the 60's-80's or Cuba, Libya for some examples of what can be manage even under severe pressure from the west.

The regime of Cuba makes deals with other countries, and those deals are done just to help castro and his thugs get richer, it doesn't help the regular people.

Well since Cubans are so much better ( living standards and life expectancy-quality of life) off than most people in Africa or South east Asia, South America so i can't imagine that Castro does not spread at least some of the wealth generated around. To expect that Cubans have western living standards is quite odd considering just how few do....

You have to have lived there to see what was the reason for the decline in Cuba.

I don't believe in biased or blatantly false first hand accounts any more than you do.

The regime of castro is very agressive against the Capitalist western countries, most so with the United States.

Pure rubbish. Cuba has never been a threat to the US as nation state but their model of social justice and wealth distribution is obviously a terrible spectre for the elites of America who are not interested in sharing their ill gotten wealth.

The Cuban regime trains terrorists who fight against the United States Armed Forces, and their main goal is to "destroy Capitalism and mostly the United States"....

Cuba supports a few liberation movements around the globe but they only fight the US and west in so far as the west supports the brutal dictators ( that steals the wealth of their nations) in said countries. Cuba has no issue with the US and would in fact quite like normalized relations with one and all as Castro's primary goal is to keep the massive majority of the people happy; it's all you can do when you are blamed for everything that goes wrong. You can look at any number of dictators ( Hitler, Hussein, Tito as recent examples) and you will notice how they tend to first attempt pacifying people with bread and circus before resorting to other means....

So tell me, which country in their right mind would trade with a regime whose main goal is the elimination of that country in any way possible?....

Since the basic premise is a vapid lie...... Florida houses more terrorist than you will find in Cuba or on their pay role.

It does not matter whether or not the Cuban regime has enough power to accomplish this. The fact that it is trying to do this, and the fact that the Cuban regime trains known terrorists, harbors terrorists including terrorists who have had to flee the United States because in cases they have murdered someone, or partook in terrorist attacks in the U.S., is enough reasons for the United States not to have any deals with the Cuban government.

Simply not true. Tell me all about these 'known terrorist' as i certainly do not know about them. I can tell you all about how many terrorist the US sponsored to attack Cuba still resides in Florida thought...

The suffering, hunger, and injustices that are happening in Cuba are happening because castro and his regime only want to expand this regime to the world,

What you have read has little to do with reality thought. It's not that i like the Cuban model of social justice and wealth distribution but it beats what the US and the west has always had in mind for the third world. Look at the countries where people actually starve to death on a regular basis and you will find that is not communism or Cuba that is responsible but market or political forces from the west...

which means more people would be living in the same conditions as most Cubans,

The world would be a far far better place had everyone the luxury of living at least the Cuban way of life. I am not suggesting we drag anyone down from a higher level ( as you apparently think would happen for some very peculiar reason) but then that's not something Castro suggests either.

and to do this they use the money they should be spending on the Cuban people on training terrorists,

The west spends far more on global terrorism (it kills millions each year) than Cuba ever did or will so please drop this ignorant line of reasoning. The international bankers behind the western policy perpetuates all this terrorism not in the name of liberation but in the name of oppression so if Cuban backed liberation movements sometimes indulge in terrorism there might at least be reason for discussion where such is never worth the time with the investigation of western backed terror.

sending doctors to other countries when there are Cubans who do not have the proper medical attention because of a lack of medical supplies which go to other

Sometimes you can have more doctors than you need but still be unable to procure the medicine and equipment you desire... Do you know that Cuba offered to send 1500 doctors to help the US after Hurricane Katrina? Do you realise that many countries did and all the offers of help were declined while people died? Castro knows there is no reasoning with the criminal US leadership but that has not prevented him from trying to disprove the basis of their lies against Cuba and him...

"revolutionary countries", and the fact that "Communism" only supresses the human spirit and does not give the people under such a regime basic human rights.

I have no love for communism or socialism ( both expects too much of powerful institutions imo) but to suggest that capitalism and 'democracy', as we frequently observe it in the USA and elsewhere, lifts the human spirit is not true by any stretch of the imagination. What the people of the west have managed in terms of living standards they have managed despite the best efforts of their largely criminal governments.

That is the true reasons why the Cuban people are suffering, it is not because of the United States.

Another apologist for a openly imperial terrorist state. Cubans suffer largely because of what the US and allies have done, and are doing, to this world.

Stellar

Well since Cubans are so much better ( living standards and life expectancy-quality of life) off than most people in Africa or South east Asia, South America so i can't imagine that Castro does not spread at least some of the wealth generated around. "




Here we go again. Castro does not spread any of his wealth around. The people there have learned to cope by eating rice and beans. As i said before, it is genetics and a totally different way of life than we have here.
Sedentary (meaning people dont rush to work, eat on the go, take their children to daycare, race the clock, daycare, what daycare?)

It was a very sedentary way of life before and it still is. Problems with food and shelter aside, the Cuban people are like lots of Europeans. They enjoy a relaxed atmosphere. They keep their jobs FOR LIFE.
Before you make these comments, you should really study the old Cuba and the new Cuba and realize that no matter what you find to eat, it is shared, people help one another (just as they always did), the Cuban people stick together and help each other out. Lack of food and shelter, now, yes. Stress and our rushed way of life here is what kills Americans.
Cubans live a long life on that island and are healthy NOT BECAUSE OF CASTRO.
They have a sedentary way of life. Study up on that one. It is true.
People come to America to work like dogs and make tons of money, but in their homeland they live quite a different routine. Trust me. A routine which prolongs their lives.
As far as medical care, from what i understand, yeah, i guess they receive medical care.....once in awhile when needed. Big whoopie Ding. Castro actually invested some of his wealth on that one.
Too bad the population lacks of everything ELSE.

posted by dgtempe

Here we go again. Castro does not spread any of his wealth around. The people there have learned to cope by eating rice and beans. As I said before, it is genetics and a totally different way of life than we have here [in the US].

It was a sedentary way of life before [1959] and it still is. Cubans live a long life on that island and are healthy NOT BECAUSE OF CASTRO. People come to America to work like dogs and make tons of money, but in their homeland they live a different routine. Trust me. As far as medical care, from what I understand, yeah, I guess they receive medical care . . once in awhile when needed. Castro actually invested some of his wealth on that one. Too bad the population lacks of everything ELSE. [Edited by Don W]

How does Forbes Magazine “know” who are the rich and famous? Much of it is based on public information, as in Bill Gates case or Warren Buffett. Or the Walton boys. In Bill Gates case, the number of shares he owns is part of MicroSoft’s annual report. You can multiply the number of shares by the NYSE quote and you have his wealth! This is true of all publicly traded stocks.

Aside: the 3 top people in MS are multi-billionaires. That is based on the quoted value of MS stock. If those 3 people decided to sell their stock at one time, say tomorrow, the overall effect would be to dilute the value of each MS share as compared to the whole number of MS shares. So if MS is $65 before the sell decision, that would reduce the value of MS stock to adjust to the increased number of shares, but it would not raise the value of MS as a business entity. So Bill Gates would still be ultra-rich, but worth perhaps only 1/4th or 1/3rd the Forbes value. There is no reason for Gates or the Waltons to sell their stock. Under the new Bush43 flat tax on the rich - graduated tax on the poor - dividends are taxed at 15% while wages are taxed up to 34%. Thank you Republicans! You do so much love America! And you know exactly how to show it. Where it really counts. In the pocketbooks of the R&Fs.

Resume. When Forbes goes outside the US, it’s reliability is much more in question. At least in my mind. Some are asserting that Fidel Castro is a rich man. 100s of millions, and some say billions. Perhaps those same people would assert that Vladimir Putin is also a rich man? Or how about China’s Hu Jintao or Jiang Zemin? Or North Korea’s Kim Jong Il? I trust you can see it is impossible for ordinary mortals to know the wealth of any of those men. So what is it that Fidel owns that we or anyone can ascertain the value of? If it is just cash hidden under the mattress, how would we know if and how much there was? I'm sure Fidel did not complete a Forbes inquiry form. So where do the numbers come from? We say “out of whole cloth.” Meaning invented and in Castro’s case, it is not hard to guess who invents those numbers. Unfortunately, this kind of propaganda falls on many willing ears.

I don’t know how much money Castro has socked away in Switzerland. Or in the Cayman Islands. Assuming Fidel would keep that a closely guarded secret, I am highly skeptical of anyone who claims to know this very private material. It really does not matter except for propaganda purposes.


en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...



[edit on 11/4/2006 by donwhite]

Originally posted by Muaddib
Is that why they had to kill so many of their own people?.....

Had to kill? Where does the idea come from that the VC were the murderous thugs in Vietnam? Where is the evidence?

and the south and the united States were fighting for the people of the south....

Actually they were butchering the people of the South and generally carpet bombing anyone who suggested that they were unhappy with the American intervention or their choice of president for the South.

Were there attrocities performed by some U.S. soldiers, yes, just like there were uncountable atrocities comitted by the Communist regime's forces, which were supposed to "fight for the people"....

The US had absolutely no business intervening in a civil affair and without their support there would not have been a war ; civil or otherwise. It's just a complete fabrication that the US 'had to intervene' and that the casualties are thus somehow unavoidable. Every Vietnamese who died in that war died as a direct result of the conditions created by foreign intervention and i can tell you that there was no communist conspiracy to take over Vietnam or Korea or most any other place in the world. One would think the USSR would first take Yugoslavia or Afghanistan and yet that did not happen till decades later in the case of Afghanistan and then only as direct result of American sponsored terror. Your no student of real history and it shows.

Right, and the Vietnamese in the south who didn't want to accept communism would have been forced much faster to become Communists...

Ho Chi Minh was only a communist in the sense that he wanted Vietnam independent from foreign powers. There are always a part of the population who are living well enough that they do not like change as the rulers of South Vietnam showed quite clearly. Communism was not being imposed on Vietnam by a outside force at all and once again it's just a complete fabrication of historic reality.

He claimed that "all immigrant/dissidents" that come from such Communist regimes and speak the truth about those regimes are "lackeys of the U.S.", and do not have any credence according to him...... which is a lie and an

Well i would not go as far as to say 'all' but when your fleeing from another country there is good reason for you to make up horror stories as to gain entry by sympathy or by letting foreign powers use your presence for it's propaganda value. We know that the CIA's arms spread far and wide and we always hear horror stories about communist but so rarely about the far larger scale genocide instigated by the CIA at the command of their Wall street masters.

bvious racist bias.

Don't see his comments as racist and the massive majority of Cubans , Vietnamese after all chose to stay in their respective countries.

Oh i see...so my knowledge is lacking and yours is superior

Yours is lacking but it's about strange to assume that i thus consider my own knowledge on topic 'superior' ; it's not so much that i know much but that you don't know anything to do with reality on these issues.

because apparently you also think Communism is "great"...

Communism is not 'great' ( defending something or someone against vapid illogical unreasonable lies does not mean you like the person or the something) by any stretch of the imagination but anti-communism has killed far more people and done more general harm to the development of the human race. Anti-'communism' is far more dangerous to your well being if you live or lived in the third world than was Communism

Well, tell you what...the facts say otherwise buddy and you can't deny the facts...

Your 'facts' may say otherwise but that hardly matters if they have nothing to do with what the historic record in fact says.

We were talking about "specific" dictatorships...

You were but i honestly don't care to limit the discussion to what suits your particular bias. At least in theory Castro is not a dictator as he is being re-elected to office every five years by representatives chosen by the people....

Wow, i guess that's it...that is the proof that contradicts what i stated....

Don is far better informed than you are in relation to this matter and that is evident to see for everyone who knows something about history. The fact that there were enough desperately ignorant people to give you your WATS wont change the fact that your very badly informed and generally ignorant of what has been taking place on this planet the last six decades.

Stellar

Originally posted by Muaddib
Really?... so there are no Communists in the U.S. and there are no professors teaching Communist ideals?

Well if you mean professors teaching people to fight for social justice,equality and a better deal in terms of economic power i guess there are communist in US schools. Anything contrary to Capitalism ( the legal rape of the defenseless poor by the well armed rich) is called communism and thus everything progressive and good for the average person becomes something you can not talk about. Name me a a few of these people and lets see just how radical they are compared to the radicals in power in the US.

yep someone sure is deluded in more than one way....

I agree.

I smell another communist sympathyzer,

I have sympathy with anyone who suffers undue aggression by those with all the power and the guns and that has been the bane of everyone called 'communist' ( the definition is quite interesting; if you want to be free start arming yourself and digging trenches) whatever their real motives were.

amazing that after all the lies and deaths their beloved economic system has brought to the world,

It's brought death and destruction to those trying to chance the world for the better based on a false association to the USSR which were in fact sponsored into being ( and kept alive) by wall street. The fact that so many people had to die on the false pretense that they were somehow communist is a damn shame and would not mind being able to wish into existence a hell just for everyone involve in this crime against humanity.

they still keep claiming "they are fighting for the people".... what a disgusting joke...

The fight to free humanity from the current rulers of the world will go on for a long time still and will be branded with far worse names than 'communism' in the future.

Cuba is a Communist country, but proponents of Communism keep trying to claim it is not... i wonder why?....

Cuba is a socialist republic. What does a proponent of 'Communism' do or propose? Find me a definition that is not hopelessly vague and we can talk some.

.maybe because they are ashamed their lie has not worked once again and it has brought nothing but death, suffering and destruction to entire nations?....

Death and destruction came from the skies or at the behest of normally Western agents so i am unsure what communism has to do with suffering and death beside provoking those who hate it from trying to destroy it by any and all means. Obviously once again everything contrary to accepted western models were called 'communist' whatever they called themselves...

Riiight, keep blaming the U.S. for the crimes committed by the Cuban regime...

I don't care much about Castro's crimes as he was not the one visiting destruction on the world at every turn like his neighbour was. As long as terror or oppression stays within borders we can build a peaceful planet but that is not possible when countries such as the USA is used as a instrument of terror to form other countries in the image of those who currently rule the world. Remember that without Batista and his madmen there probably would not be a Castro so the USA is obviously responsible no matter how you look at the issue.

These days people don't want to be accountable for anything they do and want to blame someone else, criminals do this also, blaming society for their crimes....

Which is a result of social conditioning and thus no accident. If a person has no personal responsibility they are ever easier to manipulate and that is why humanities problems will probably not get easier as the media propaganda onslaught increases.

Ah again, trying to blame and claim the United States "is the worse terrorist regime"....

It happens to be the truth and is obvious when one takes a good look at recent history.

Am i sure that I would be harrassed by his thugs and go to jail for speaking against him in public?... yes i am, even if i am a naturalized U.S. citizen, in Cuba the regime considers me "a Cuban citizen",

I am all for free speech but when the main proponents of it uses it to spread obvious lies about you and your country how much would you like it? Mud sticks and considering what we hear from so called Cuban dissidents i think speech there is just about as free as you can make it without selling your airwaves to a enemy that has sworn to destroy you.

and Cuban citizens get harassed and are political prisoners for speaking against castro in public.

As far as i know the majority of those in Cuban prisoners are either paid agents of the west or actually want to overthrow the government; last i checked most countries lock people up for these things. In America people actually get locked up for selling or using drugs and you people have the gull to point fingers when others lock people up for something of significance
What absolute hypocrisy i say.

Provide a reliable link to back your claim please.....

Well please explain what you consider 'reliable' as so far you apparently don't consider any part of the known historic record to be accurate....
More interestingly will be all the assassinations of political activists in the USA; also something few know anything about.

i learnt about Communism by living in a Communist regime, and that's no lie, you trying to claim it is not,

I am claiming that you have no understanding of history and thus no perspective of what has been happening the last few decades or how to compare it to what might have happened.

so people will think Communism is great is the lie... If anyone has to learn about Communism it is you, not I.]

I don't want to learn about communism first hand as i am not interested in becoming the subject of such a regime. That all aside i can see how someone like you would simply not fit into a society where reality is actually understood by many citizens. Do you know what the conditions are in other Caribbean nations? Probably not as that just would not fit into your hopelessly biased and ignorant POV on this issue.

Stellar

[edit on 4-11-2006 by StellarX]

Originally posted by StellarX

Originally posted by Muaddib
Is that why they had to kill so many of their own people?.....

Had to kill? Where does the idea come from that the VC were the murderous thugs in Vietnam? Where is the evidence?

I'm going to interject something at this point, Stellar. The Viet Cong recruited by terrorizing entire villages and murdering innocent women and children. I know this is true because I was there. The NVA and Viet Cong murdered thousands of innocent civilians during the Battle of Hue in 1968. You can choose to live in your own little world of fantasy, if you so choose, but you need to get a grip on reality, relative to the topic at hand.

You can start your research here.

ngothelinh.tripod.com...


[edit on 2006/11/4 by GradyPhilpott]

Originally posted by StellarX
Had to kill? Where does the idea come from that the VC were the murderous thugs in Vietnam? Where is the evidence?

Where is the evidence?... You have got to be kidding, there are accounts of Vietnamese people telling the world how the Vietcong/Communists murdered civilian Vietnamese.... But i am sure you will try to deny this....

HUE, MASS MURDER, MASS BURIAL
By TITO V. CARBALLO
HUE - The heady scent of incense filled the air. A group of Buddhist monks began to chant an elegy to the slow and muted beat of a drum. Beside them, a Roman Catholic priest almost inaudibly said a prayer for the dead.

The religious rites by representatives of two faiths last October 14 at the foot of a barren hill was held so that the souls of unknown victims of the Communist Tet offensive in 1968 could know peace snd tranquility.

Under a scorching sun, the mortal remains enclosed in simple, hurriedly made coffins were arranged in neat rows for the mass burial.

Beside each coffin, two black clad members of the Popular Force of Thua Thien province where this northernmost city of South Viet Nam is located, stood at attention, awaiting for the funeral to start.

Grief was common.

Some 15,000 mourners in white nourning clothes milled around the sun- drenched area. Some wept in silence, others hysterically - occasionally looking at each other as if in search of assurance that this was not stark reality but merely a bad dream.

Over 2,000 victims of the red massacre have been found, many of them unidentified. It is estimated that more than 3,000 residents of Hue perished at the hands of the Communists during their occupation of this former imperial city.

www.saigon.com...

That link tells of what happened in one city in South Vietnam, the city of Hue.

Here is another link to what happened in that battle.

WARNING THE FOLLOWING LINK HAS PHOTOS OF DEAD VIETNAMESE KILLED BY THE VIETCONG!!!!
ngothelinh.tripod.com...

The Communist fighting for the people?... what a joke... If anyone has to learn from history and from the people who have suffered under such regimes it is obviously you, alongside some others who seem to adore Communism...

Originally posted by StellarX
Actually they were butchering the people of the South and generally carpet bombing anyone who suggested that they were unhappy with the American intervention or their choice of president for the South.

There were some Americans who did commit atrocities against Vietnamese civilians, but the Vietcong killed Vietnamese as a general rule, it was not the exception....

Originally posted by StellarX
The US had absolutely no business intervening in a civil affair and without their support there would not have been a war ; civil or otherwise. It's just a complete fabrication that the US 'had to intervene' and that the casualties are thus somehow unavoidable. Every Vietnamese who died in that war died as a direct result of the conditions created by foreign intervention and i can tell you that there was no communist conspiracy to take over Vietnam or Korea or most any other place in the world.

You are wrong...and I can't believe some people claiming such obvious lies....

If the U.S. hadn't intervened there would have been a genocide on the South Vietnamese, which did happen at the hands of the Vietcong to a lesser extend..

First of all, we do have accounts of South Vietnamese people telling of what the Vietcong did to them and their families.... Are you going to claim like donwhite that "the statements from dissidents of such countries don't have any credence"?....


[edit on 4-11-2006 by Muaddib]

I gave a couple of links on some of the "warfronts" that castro has supported violent rebellions in other parts of the world, but you keep claiming it is not true without providing any evidence to support your false claims...

We can all see that if anyone is biased here it is you, I gave links with the account of south African people who were kidnapped as children to be trained as terrorists/revolutionary fighters in Cuba....

Stellar, do yourself a favor and do some research before you put your foot in your mouth again.

[edit on 4-11-2006 by Muaddib]

BTW Stellar....are you claiming the U.S. intervened in Vietnam for 43 years?....

There have been 6 wars fought in 43 years in Vietnam, and in all those wars the Vietnamese have fought each other and other nations. The United States was just in one of those wars...

Keep showing your ignorance of the facts Stellar...

[edit on 4-11-2006 by Muaddib]

castro is a very wealthy man, he has several mansions on the island including Cuban state enterprises like Cimex retail conglomerate, Cubatabaco, Artex, Cubacatricos, Cubatecnica, Gaviota, Acemex, Cubatur, Antex, Caribat, the Havana Convention Center and Medicuba, and I could be missing more.

Oh and BTW, castro does own Cuba...Forbes only counted 10% of the Cuban GDP as part of castro's wealth, his wealth is well beyond that 10%.

BTW, you want to know what castro does to business partners from Europe and other parts of the world who are "socialist/capitalists"?....

Investors shown door after Cuban crackdown
Financial Times
June 07, 2005

By Marc Frank

It has been more than a decade since Cuba, suffering from a post-Soviet economic collapse and jitters about the US, opened its door to foreign businesses.

Now many investors - mainly European - who took the plunge are being asked to leave. Only half the homes rented to expatriates by the state's real estate monopoly are now occupied and at the Havana International School matriculation is down about a third from two years ago and falling.
.......................
European investors whose joint ventures are liquidating complain of endless haggling with state companies and ministry officials over how and when their share of investments will be paid, and the often millions of dollars they are owed for financing operating costs.

If they want me to leave, OK, I'm a guest in their house. But what I can't accept is simply being booted out of here with no solid guarantee I will ever get my money back," says a Spanish businessman operating in Cuba since the early 1990s who is negotiating what he calls "the best possible bad bargain".
Another company representative in a similar situation terms his Cuban partner's behaviour "outrageous".
I have gone through endless meetings for more than a year with no result in terms of recovering our investment. They are trying to wear me down," he says, like others asking to remain anonymous for fear of making matters worse.

European diplomats say the Cubans are usually within their rights in ending business relationships, but often do so with little explanation and with only the dubious promise that they will some day pay money owed foreign partners.
................
One joint venture established a decade ago is being liquidated in spite of a 20-year contract.
It has always operated at a loss, though the foreign investor made a profit by selling materials to the company from abroad and Cuba, he claims, saved 45 per cent on imports and made money by charging high prices for labour, utilities and other services.

"I do not understand their problem. The Cubans seem not to fathom win-win situations. For them it is a zero-sum game. They think anything you make should be theirs," the investor said.
The companies have little choice but to take a loss in equipment, warehoused products, personnel training and other costs built up over the years.

Cuban law states they must sell what they have back to the government, which pays little, or to other foreigners, of whom there are fewer and fewer, or take what they have with them on their way out of town.

www.cubacenter.org...

That serves them for dealing with the devil...

Those millions the Cuban regime took from these "mostly European" investors will never see the hands of the Cuban people...


[edit on 4-11-2006 by Muaddib]

And among his mansions is Ernest Hemengway's- his priced possetion. Ironic,

isnt it? I'm just throwing this in for the irony of it all. He was a HUGE fan of Hemingway and kept it for himself.

BTW you should all know that "most of the rest of the world does business with Cuba"...yet the people are starving, and it is not because of a lack of "business"...it is because the regime pockets most of the money.

posted by Muaddib

BTW you should all know that "most of the rest of the world does business with Cuba" . . yet the people are starving, and it is not because of a lack of business it is because the regime pockets most of the money.
[Edited by Don W]

I knew that, Mr M, but it is ok to remind. OTOH, Cuba’s “natural” trading partner would be the US. How much wrath and retaliation those nations are willing to endure by “slapping” the US in the face is problematical. I suspect the real reason for Cuba's poverty is the legacy of 400 years of cruel Spanish rule, followed by 50 years of US economic exploitation. I'm thinking Cuba was a "basket case" in 1959.

One poster here says Fidel stole Ernest Hemingway’s “mansion.” Owning any old house is a liability, not an asset. Why steal anything if you can’t sell it? For all I know, Hemingway may have had a 2 room shack on the beach. He also had a house in Key West, and another in Montana where he killed himself. One poster said Cubans on the island are “laid back” and are “sedentary” and don’t want to work hard enough to raise a sweat. They want to have an unending festival.

The world price of sugar is one of many keys to the Cuban economy. Sugar may be the most labor intensive of all agricultural products. The US government sets the price of sugar and the amount of imports allowed. Americans pay about 50% more for sugar because of that policy, but Cuban sugar like Cuban cigars are a no no for Americans. I expect the price of sugar on the world market has more to do with poverty in Cuba than any other single factor.


[edit on 11/5/2006 by donwhite]

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
I'm going to interject something at this point, Stellar.

That's the point yes...

The Viet Cong recruited by terrorizing entire villages and murdering innocent women and children.

So did the Germans and the Poles and the French and everyone who has ever been the aim of Propaganda. What about the Iraqi's throwing babies out of Incubators in Kuwait? Just a blatant lie but it still made it to the press circus that is global media.

I am not here to defend the crimes of the VC or North but simply to that these crimes would not have happened at all but for the completely illegal American intervention in the South. I do not personally believe in the typical anti-communist horror stories and no amount of rehashed propaganda is going to sway my mind considering what i have already read and seen.

I know this is true because I was there.

In all honest taking active part in an illegal war would make you a war criminal ( and i hate being so blunt but that's what that would make you according to international law ) so are you altogether sure that you want to talk about any of your personal experiences there? If you did don't worry much as that's about true for much of American armed forces and a quite a few other including Russia and Britain. Good company some would say.

Is it baiting when you throw the truth in someone's face where most would not?

The NVA and Viet Cong murdered thousands of innocent civilians during the Battle of Hue in 1968.

What about the million or more of Innocent men women and children carpet bombed into oblivion for simple trying to survive a war they had no real interest in fighting?

You can choose to live in your own little world of fantasy,

The fantasy world is the one i used to believe in where America tried to save the world from itself despite the best efforts of communist criminals everywhere...

if you so choose, but you need to get a grip on reality, relative to the topic at hand.

You can start your research here.

ngothelinh.tripod.com...

I am glad i did not see as much reality as you did ( Vietnam) as my words to you would likely be quite less civil. What you know about reality i have unlearned long ago as i discovered that it had nothing to do with reality.

Stellar

[edit on 5-11-2006 by StellarX]

[edit on 5-11-2006 by StellarX]

Muaddib, who or what is Cubacenter.org?

European diplomats say the Cubans are usually within their rights in ending business relationships, but often do so with little explanation and with only the dubious promise that they will some day pay money owed foreign partners.

Cuban law states they [foreign investors] must sell what they have back to the government, which pays little, or to other foreigners, of whom there are fewer and fewer, or take what they have with them on their way out of town. [Old, used or worn out equipment has little value.]

One joint venture established a decade ago is being liquidated in spite of a 20-year contract. It has always operated at a loss, though the foreign investor made a profit by selling materials to the company from abroad and Cuba, he claims, saved 45 per cent on imports and made money by charging high prices for labor, utilities and other services. [Sounds like some sharp dealings in the case.] [My comments are in brackets. DW]

Business relations are not like courting your favorite girl. If this is the best you can muster to support our anti-Fidel campaign, then I’m saying you are in a weak position, Mr M. Very weak.



[edit on 11/5/2006 by donwhite]

Originally posted by StellarX

I am not here to defend the crimes of the VC or North but simply to that these crimes would not have happened at all but for the completely illegal American intervention in the South.

In all honest taking active part in an illegal war would make you a war criminal ( and i hate being so blunt but that's what that would make you according to international law ) so are you altogether sure that you want to talk about any of your personal experiences there?

You're wrong, again, Stellar and this time you are making a personal attack.

American intervention in Vietnam came as a result of the Southeast Asia Treaty Organization which bound member states to hold any invasion of a member nation as an invasion of their own country. New Zealand, Australia, and North Korea all had troops in South Vietnam.

And I don't appreciate your calling me a war criminal and in fact I'm just a little tired of your baseless tirades here. If you can't post the truth, then find a forum that has lower standards.