50+ People Dead in Israeli Air Strike on Apartment House.

A previous poster made the statement that the US isn't trying to push a ceasefire in the region. Well, that's not true, since our Secretary of State is over there right now, trying to get just that. The problem with a ceasefire is getting BOTH sides to stop immediately, and come to the talking table. Then, and only then, can peace be discussed.

That said, I seriously doubt that Hezbollah or Lebanon would come to the tables, should Israel agree. It's something that neither side can do, for the sake of leaving themselves vulnerable to attack by the other side. This situation needs to run it's course, and no more peace talks need to happen. This exact situation has been going on for the past 60 years now, mostly because of the constant on-and-off fighting. This needs to stop, and the only way that's going to happen is if someone wins the fight.

No one complained when we went over to Afghanistan and bombed them into the Stone Age for attacking us. Why should we complain over what these two countries are doing? It's a natural part of the evolution of a country. They have to stabalize and enforce their borders to have a chance at long-lasting peace.

Personally, I think any American is kind of hypocritical for complaining about this situation, given the history of this country. Just my thoughts.

TheBorg

Edited to update post:

Secretary of State Condoleeza Rice has returned to the US after her attempt to establish a peace resolution with Israel/Lebanon. Too bad it didn't work... I guess.

[edit on 1-8-2006 by TheBorg]

Would not be surprised if hazbaluckmyself got civilians and put them in the building after the isrealis said they were going to attack. Someone earlier posted the def for genocide, cant believe some people still dont understand what terrorism is, and what an extremest will do.

You're right, you are imbalanced. The situition is bad enough as it is. From everything I have heard, the claim of stationary Hezbollah batteries is at best incorrect...they are quite mobil, roll into an are fire a few missiles and leave and the civilians left behind are the ones who get the crap bombed out of them. Hezbollah may not be the good guys, if there are any at all, but with each civilian death, Israel strengthens Hezbollah's support. Israel (with the Bushes help who is clueless) has become its own worst enemy. Condi Rice is the most inept sec. of state in memory, and hasn't done anything serious about this conflict except to shoot down a cease fire unless its on her/the U.S./Israels terms only. Can't they see that is unacceptable from Lebanon's viewpoint, considering they are being attacted.

What so many on here fail to understand is that not all Muslims hate Israel, many really don't care one way or the other...its the middle east...the majority of Muslims live in places like Indonesia, India and Africa and they have their own problems.

Originally posted by carnival_of_souls2047
Throughout history, the Jewish people have been the most attacked, persecuted, and demonized ethnic group in the world.

How do you work that out?

Can you yourself go back, make a tally chart of every ethnic group and how many times another ethnic group attacked them? However, do you go by what they say or some other group says?

The arguement, is flawed. Nobody can know how many of one ethnic group has been attacked throughout history. If you do go off of what the Jews said, how do we know they're not lying? Then again we could always take other Religious books. If you bother to read the Qu'ran, you'd see they claim they were attacked by Christians and Jews as being heretics in the early years. So then the Jews have done their own fair bit of murder and attempted genocide. Then again, we can always read the Old Testiment and look at the groups in their the Jews attacked.

They are just as guilty of crimes, admitted in their own religious text books as the next group. So trying to give them special treatment because others attacked them is stupid.

by Grover: "I beleive war is counter-productive and never solves anything,"

Ah.... that's your problem. Ever take a history class? We've discussed this before, and you 'nor anyone has ever told me where lasting peace has come, when dealing with tyrants and dictators, as the result of negotiations or appeasement; or cease-fires for that matter.

On topic: Now we find that it was almost 8 hours, after the bombing stopped, that the building collapsed; so why didn't they get the people out???? Why did they have to die

Calling for a cease fire now (because of the deaths of those in the building) would be similar to the allies, after the bombing of Dresden, calling Hitler and saying "We're sorry, boo hoo hoo."

Since when has conditions of war been decided by how many of both sides are dead? Posters here seem to have forgotten that Hezbubble has virtually all of their military facilities in civilian areas. They conveniently ignore photos in other related threads showing a destroyed mobile Katushka rocket launcher in the middle of a civilian neighborhood, yet ask why so many civilian casualties.

Why no outrage that Lebanon/Hezbubble has violated their UN sanctions? Very few news outlets have correctly stated that this is a defensive attack, NOT an offensive one.

4-28 of the Geneva Convention: "The presense of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operation."

Originally posted by imbalanced
Would not be surprised if hazbaluckmyself got civilians and put them in the building after the isrealis said they were going to attack.

Pretty close to the truth. Keep digging. I have my own ideas that I've been mulling over that are in line with your thinking. (Shameless thread link) It all boils down to a PR battle to keep Hezbollah in power.

Let us not forget who started this..... Hezbollah came into sovereign Israeli territory and killed and kidnapped their soldiers.. They expected to trade these soldiers for prisoners. Guess what? Israel is ALL DONE with this terrorizing and terrorism. If they end up killing 1 million civilians in "collateral damage," as sad as it is, oh well.. They have all been given proper warning and have all been told to get out. Secondly, if they are allowing Hezbollah to operate and fire rockets from within their neighborhoods, then they deserved to be bombed. These people have harbored these terrorists for far too long. The Lebanese Government cannot control them or put an end to thier terrorism, so Israel is doing it for them. Will there be collateral damage, yes. Is war fair, no. Is war nice, no. Is war sometimes necessary, YES...... For the long term peace that Israel so desperately desires, this war is necessary.

Originally posted by sendillegalshome
Let us not forget who started this..... ETC ETC ETC ETC..

Well done. you managed to get in ALL the key words..

ALLOWED
LET
HARBOURED..ETC

So you,ll forgive us for not mourning you when 5 heavily armed terrorists smash down your front door and hold you and your family and the SWAT team just decided to C4 your house with you inside because to ALLOWED.LET. HARBOURED..them inside..

..tch tch tch honestly

I have studied history deeply and broadly all my life that is how I came to the conclusion that war never solves anything, you obviously zappa have come to a different conclusion.

A deeper thinker than you or I ever will be said this:

"Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called the children of God....

...Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

Ya know I take that seriously, and I don't even call myself a Christian.

What part of that don't those of you who scream for blood not understand?

Originally posted by zappafan1
Ah.... that's your problem. Ever take a history class? We've discussed this before, and you 'nor anyone has ever told me where lasting peace has come, when dealing with tyrants and dictators, as the result of negotiations or appeasement; or cease-fires for that matter.

Problem with your logic, is Hez are not "dictators" or "tyrants" in the classical sense. They're members of a non-government armed militia. Due to this, I would like to see where war against such groups has worked?

grover: For one who has been so involved in history for so long, still you have yet to answer my question as posed, and you cannot, because it's never happened.

You can quote all you want (all of which is completely off-topic) yet you cannot refute what I wrote in my post, above.

I have certain Christian views, but still Yeshua (whom most mistakenly call "Jesus") says we must fight to rid the world of evil, of which Hezbubble, Al Queda, Hamas et-al, are.

Condi Rice is the most inept sec. of state in memory

REPLY: You've forgotten Colin Powell and MuddledandHalfbright?

[edit on 1-8-2006 by zappafan1]

Odium: My question was a result of a previous, off-topic conversation, which I tried to get back on topic in a previous post. However, since Hezbubble is a direct subsidiary of Iran, they would fall into the category(ies) you and I mentioned.

Originally posted by grover
You're right, you are imbalanced. The situition is bad enough as it is. From everything I have heard, the claim of stationary Hezbollah batteries is at best incorrect...they are quite mobil, roll into an are fire a few missiles and leave and the civilians left behind are the ones who get the crap bombed out of them. Hezbollah may not be the good guys, if there are any at all, but with each civilian death, Israel strengthens Hezbollah's support. Israel (with the Bushes help who is clueless) has become its own worst enemy. Condi Rice is the most inept sec. of state in memory, and hasn't done anything serious about this conflict except to shoot down a cease fire unless its on her/the U.S./Israels terms only. Can't they see that is unacceptable from Lebanon's viewpoint, considering they are being attacted.

What so many on here fail to understand is that not all Muslims hate Israel, many really don't care one way or the other...its the middle east...the majority of Muslims live in places like Indonesia, India and Africa and they have their own problems.

Who attacked who? Who kidnapped the soldiers and refused to return them? Who is continuing to bomb civilian targets in Israeli with hardly a murmur in the news, and then the hezbollah supporters try to say that whine whine Israel has guided missles and the poor Hezbollah/Lebanese ONLY have the equivalent of hot shrapnel to hurl, poor babies, so 'HOW can they possibly be held accountable when civilian targets are hit?' The logic is slightly short of insane but not much.

So who appointed you to decide what is on or off topic on this thread zappa? Certianly not me.

I don't give a damn what he was called Jesus, Emmanuel, Yeshua or Christ...all these people who profess to be good Christians, some damned fools of them, cheering for the end of the world, a handful only have ever attempted to live his teachings and to put them into action....of course he predicted that.

Religions are what happen to the teachings of a master after his deciples realize how hard it is to live them.

I could turn that right around and ask you can you actually prove an instance where war ever actually solved anything at all either and no you cannot....each war leads to other problems that lead to other wars...so please tell me what the hell is wrong with trying honest and open negotions for once. Yes they might fail, but at least they were tried.

I swear to God all you gungho lets bomb them back to the stone age buggers, of course from the safety of your computers far from the action. Big men every one of ya.

Attempting peace is never wrong.

Curiousity.... What part of they are ALL wrong don't you understand? I have not said a word of support for Hezbollah nor do I support Israel. I do not support war period and some people have the termity to criticism me for an essentially morality based stance.

Originally posted by zappafan1
Odium: My question was a result of a previous, off-topic conversation, which I tried to get back on topic in a previous post. However, since Hezbubble is a direct subsidiary of Iran, they would fall into the category(ies) you and I mentioned.

It's not though.

Yes, it has support from Iran and other Nation's but then the I.R.A. had funding from State [U.S.A.] and big business [McDonalds] for example.

However, it isn't anything more than a rag-tag-group who get the odd bit of funding from a Government. They're not by any means a military wing - in fact, they are just as much of a group of people with some minor military training. Again any militia with members of ex-military forces.

So where has complete force helped to destroy one of these? You're the history expert after all.

Sometimes I feel like I am talking to children before they have reached the age of reason. So I am going to put it in as simple terms as possible.

War has failed.
War has failed in the Middle East.
War has failed the Palestinians.
War has failed the Israelis.
Still they fight.
One definition of crazy is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
War has failed the civilians on both sides.
War has failed the militarizes, or else they would have stopped fighting long ago.
War has failed the militants or else they would have stopped fighting long ago.
War has failed the politicians.
War has definitely failed the victims.
War has failed.
For sixty years war has failed.
War has failed.
What part of that don't you understand?

The only thing that they have not seriously tried is negotiations.
Underline the word serious.
When negotiations were tried with Egypt, they worked.
When negotiations were tried with Jordan, they worked.
When it comes to negotiations with the Palestinians, neither side is willing to work from a blank slate.
The Palestinians have their non-negotiable demands.
The Israelis have their non-negotiable demands.
The Syrians have their non-negotiable demands.
Hezbollah has their non-negotiable demands.
You cannot negotiate with non-negotiable demands...they are non-negotiable and as such deal breakers.
The only thing that they, as in all sides,
as in Israel,
as in Syria,
as in the Palestinians,
as in Hezbollah,
as in all sides
have not tried is honest negotiations
without non-negotiable demands,
with everything,
the Golan heights
settlements
the wall
right of return
everything, it all, everything
on the table.
Anything less is less than good faith.
They have nothing left to lose except more blood.
And everything,
peace,
stability,
perhaps, in the long run
good will,
to gain.

And if honest negotiations fail,
well at least they tried
and they can go back to the bleeding
all sides
be damned.

Originally posted by grover
Curiousity.... What part of they are ALL wrong don't you understand? I have not said a word of support for Hezbollah nor do I support Israel. I do not support war period and some people have the termity to criticism me for an essentially morality based stance.

The biggest problem I see with this thinking is moral relativisim. No understanding of good vs evil.........only two sides fighting.

Let me help here.........Israel GOOD.........Terrorist BAD.

Evil never stands out in a desert alone where they can be removed safely. Evil by definition does not play "fair". War is not "confilct resolution" class so little johnny will play nice with others. Hezbollah want to kill all Jews...........terminate Israel as a country. Israel only want to breath and live and let their children live.

No words on a peace of paper will stop Hezbollah............only the complete extermination..........



[edit on 1-8-2006 by thermopolis]

The problem with that argument thermo is that it is crude and simplistic. Ask a peasant in the south of Lebanon who is being bombed out who is good and evil. You will I am sure get a different black and white.

Originally posted by grover
The problem with that argument thermo is that it is crude and simplistic. Ask a peasant in the south of Lebanon who is being bombed out who is good and evil. You will I am sure get a different black and white.

Again you decieve yourself. That "peasant" in southern Lebanon is supporting Hezbollah. Life is Black and White, you simply choose to make it Gray................

Stop trying to feed your own ego and sense of superemacy by making simple things complicated. This is a war of good vs evil. Good has gotten tired of evil and decided to fight back for a change.

Let me help you once more.............Israel GOOD.........terroist evil.

See..............Black and White.........simple..............no gray area..........