50+ People Dead in Israeli Air Strike on Apartment House.

This is what I'm talking about. The link shows exclusive photos of Hez in amongst buildings & apartment blocks dressed in civilian clothes so they can disperse amongst the civvies.

www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0%2C%2C19955774-5007220%2C00.html

The images include one of a group of men and youths preparing to fire an anti-aircraft gun metres from an apartment block with sheets hanging out on a balcony to dry.

Others show a militant with AK47 rifle guarding no-go zones after Israeli blitzes.

Another depicts the remnants of a Hezbollah Katyusha rocket in the middle of a residential block blown up in an Israeli air attack.

The Melbourne man who smuggled the shots out of Beirut and did not wish to be named said he was less than 400m from the block when it was obliterated.

"Hezbollah came in to launch their rockets, then within minutes the area was blasted by Israeli jets," he said.

There is a war there so civilians should evacuate then there would be no collateral damage.

To answer your question I am from Southwestern Virginia, born and bred. I don't know a lot about the middle east, I just don't get my world view from faux news or any of the other media outlet for that matter. I do my own reading and I read broadly and from a variety of different prespectives. I am a history buff and my personal library consists mainly of history and reference books. I could recommend several different books that would give a far larger picture of what has been going on than TV news, most notably Karen Armstrong's books "Holy War" and "The Battle for God: A History of Fundamentalism". Tariq Ali's book "A Clash of Fundamentalisms", which came out right after 9/11 give an excellent recent history of the area from the Arab prespective. He is a Pakistani intellectual, and atheist. Another compelling read is "How Did This Happen?" by the editors of Foreign Affairs magazine, also published right after 9/11, and attempts to examine the roots of terrorsm against the United States. There are also several excellent histories of the middle east out there as well.

Nothing is black and white except black and white, (and even they have their shades) especially not human interactions and it is not moral relativism, it is a statement of fact. To look at the world of man that way is simplistic and an example of the very same type of thinking that fuels much of the world's hatreds today.

The one thing I have noted from the news is that getting into the area is extremely dangerous and one would deduct from that if you really wanted to think about it, that so is getting out. Kinda works both ways don't ya think? It isn't like Israel is giving the people days to get out, from what I have heard, its hours, from when the bombing of a village starts, nor is there a cease fire while the inhabitants run for it but the shelling continues all around them. A terrifying situition I am sure. Also 95% of the infrastructure of Lebanon has been damaged making escape all that more difficult. And, since they are not shelling just roads or villages but the countryside.... going cross country to escape is also dangerous. I tend to think of these people as having the same type of attitude (and sometimes problems, age, lack of transportation, poverty etc) as the people who stayed in New Orleans (or any other natural disaster) after being warned to leave.

I do not support Hamas or Hezbollah and I understand Israel has the right to defend themselves, but they could have gone about it differently. A much more effective approach (I think, an a far more accurate one than missile barrages) would have been a ground offensive from the very beginning.

Also Israel has shown repeatedly that they do not respect international boundries. Hezbollah doesn't either but they are not a nation.

I tend to think that a better approach would have been to have invited Lebanon to join them in ridding their country of Hezbollah. It might not of worked...but I tend to think that given the chance the government of Lebanon would have jumped at the chance to have further rid their country of Syrian influnce. But Israel blew it, in their arrogance they just went ahead and attacked consequences be damned and have now alienated Lebanon, probably for good, if not for a very long time to come.

Without compassion we are no better than our prejudices.

Like I said on another similar thread, the city should be evacuated and Israel should do a Fallujah style approach.

REPLY: As has been posted earlier, Hezbubble had roadblocks which prevented many of them from leaving.

How are they meant to leave? You can sit there and pretend all you like they can, but there are a few slight problems:
Bridges blown up. Cars bembed for being on the road. They might not have any transport.

REPLY: .... and these people were born without legs?, which I'm fairly certain they used before the advent of roads, cars, etc.

No one has said that Israel is targeting civilians, they are just not being especially careful.

REPLY: Laser-guided bombs are not accurate enough for you? Basically: "Pick a building, then pick a window.... any window; BOOM!!!

by Odium: Just so you're aware, I know some Arabic. So if you do use one of the false Qu'ran translations that are out there or mis-quotations.....

REPLY: C'mon Odium.... knowing "some Arabic" does not imply correct interpretation without knowledge of nuances and dialects used when the Koran was written, and re-written.

I'm still waiting for you to show lists of the groups which have been beaten by the policy you use.

REPLY: Odium: Go back and read the question again. You keep wanting to go off-topic, but I'll say it once again. I asked: "Name me one time in the past 200 years where tolerance, negotiations and appeasement with tyrants and dictators has brought lasting peace." (That implies the burden falls upon you, or anyone, to supply information).

The premise was: Lasting peace has only come through Victory; usually through the use of overwhelming force. Hitler, Mussolini and Japan come to mind. Any questions?

On topic, here's what it comes down to:




[edit on 2-8-2006 by zappafan1]

This is rediculous. I have four words:

ISREAL MUST BE STOPPED

Not because they're jews, because they indescriminatly bomb civilians. How much flak did America get for it's efforts in Afghanistan and Iraq? Yet the US forces took every possible measure to keep civilian casualities to a minimum and to preserve infastructure.

You must be out of your mind to say that it's the civilian's fault they were killed because they should have left. I don't know how well off some of you are but I find it hard to believe that these people can just pack their bags, move to another country and make a new life for themselves. Not to mention that if they packed everything into their car it would probably be attacked by Isreali gunships.

This isn't a war of revenge or justice, it's simply ethinc cleansing. We're supposed to believe that this is all justified because of the kidnapping of two Isreali soldiers? If you want to blame anyone then blame Isreal for drafting the young men in the first place. This "war" is completely unbalanced and one sided, Isreal has no intention of bringing peace to that region unless that peace comes under the Isreali flag.

People need to open their eyes, be realistic and stop making assinine excuses for the criminal actions of this outlaw state. Yes, I know Hezbolah and other groups have been attacking Isreal for years but that's no excuse for the pictures of babies torn to shreds by precision guided Isreali bombs. Isreal would like nothing than to reduce to surrounding areas to smoldering ruins and finally be kings of the wasteland.

zappafan1, you really should put on a comedy show.

You honestly can't be saying that you think, Hez can be compared to Hitler, WW2 Japan and Mussolini? [P.S: Italian communist partisans killed Mussolini.]

However, I can think of many where force didn't work:
China.
U.S.S.R.
Afghanistan.
Iraq.
North Korea.
Cuba.
I.R.A.
Irgun/Levi.
India/Pakistan.

Do I need to go on? In fact, I have yet to see where terrorist groups [even those Government sponsored] were beaten by force. Can you show any? After all, if you are to defend Israels action you need to be able to show where these actions have worked before.

by Odium:

You honestly can't be saying that you think, Hez can be compared to Hitler, WW2 Japan and Mussolini?

REPLY: Nowhere did I say that. You're still off-topic, and you still haven't answered my basic question.

Shadowflux: You certainly have a right to your opinions, but ATS is supposed to be a place for rational discussion. If you still have the opinions as you presented in your last post, after reading everything else that has been posted which differs from your view, then you never will understand. The only thing Irael wants is peace within it's own borders; nothing more and nothing less.

If you've noticed, over 46 years the only time they've used military force is when they were attacked in one way or another. Three surrounding countries are fighting a religious war that only wants one thing..... Israel wiped off the face of the earth, and death to all Jews worldwide. They are the ones commiting genocide. Just what do you expect them to do? Sit by and watch/let it happen?

as I said before, who appointed zappafan to deternine of who is on or off topic?.

Originally posted by zappafan1

by Odium:

You honestly can't be saying that you think, Hez can be compared to Hitler, WW2 Japan and Mussolini?

REPLY: Nowhere did I say that. You're still off-topic, and you still haven't answered my basic question.

Which question was this? In your last post, you only used one question mark:

The premise was: Lasting peace has only come through Victory; usually through the use of overwhelming force. Hitler, Mussolini and Japan come to mind. Any questions?

.

I then myself, answered your question. By asking you one:

In fact, I have yet to see where terrorist groups [even those Government sponsored] were beaten by force. Can you show any?

However, I am fine to answer any question you do post. Would you bother to do the same for me and show when a terrorist group has been beaten by force?

Zappa, I form my opinions based on multiple sources over years and years of seeing what Isreal does, if I were to form my opinion based solely on this one thread that would be extremely ignorant of me.

The fact of the matter still remains, that Isreal's retaliation has always been of an unbalanced nature. Terrorists bomb a bus so Israel retaliates with gunship attacks and the demolition of buildings. Two Israeli soldiers are kidnapped so Israel bombs 75% of Lebanon. When you look at the numbers it's plain to see that Israel kills at least three times as many civilians and enemy combatants as the terrorists kill Israelis.

Regardless of your pro-Israel agenda I think that even you can agree that attacks and retaliation such as has been displayed by Israel in the past few weeks serve only to breed future terrorists. The goal of a war is meant to be peace ( I know, it sounds illogical) but this kind of blind destruction brings only more war.

This may be a strain on your cognitive abilities but try to consider this from a different point of view. No matter how crazed or sadistic these "terrorists" may seem it doesn't change the fact that they belive themselves to be freedom fighters. When you look at the history books it seems they have good reason to believe themselves as such. For hundreds of years there was no Israel, Palestinians are evicted, Israel is erected, and you expect all the surrounding Arab countries to just accept it?From their point of view Israel is an intruisive and oppressive force, responding to the terrorists by blowing up ambulances, children, and apartment buildings only makes them seem all that much more oppressive.

Israel asked for this war when they moved in.

If violence and death are the only solutions Israel has to this problem then there needs to be a third party mediator. Problem is, no one wants to touch that problem with a ten foot pole and I can't say I blame them. Israel has made a huge stinking mess of the entire Middle Eastern region.

Perhaps it's easy for you to say "Kill 'em all" but the death of children is a sad pitiful victory for Israel.


Edit: By the way Zap, you're wrong, Israel has attacked without provocation before. Ever hear of Osiraq?

Osirak, also spelled Osiraq, was a 40 MW light-water nuclear materials testing reactor (MTR) in Iraq. It was constructed by the Iraqi government at the Al Tuwaitha Nuclear Research Centre, 11 miles (18 km) south-east of Baghdad in 1977. It was crippled by Israeli aircraft in 1981 in a preemptive strike to prevent the regime of Saddam Hussein from using the reactor for the creation of nuclear weapons. The facility was completely destroyed by American aircraft during the 1991 Gulf War.

Osirak (Osiraq) on Wiki

[edit on 2-8-2006 by Shadowflux]

And of course , here is additinal footage of Hezbullah firing Katusha rockets from Kfar Cana and using civilian infrastructure to hide launchers after launching rockets.

Video from Israeli UAVs

The above link is both in Hebrew and English.

So its alright then to bomb the civilians then huh?

That old eye for an eye thing is just plain toxic and stupid to boot why can't you understand that?

Israel by their heavy handedness is simply making the next generation of hezbollah and you people are too bull headed to see it.

This is for Judah and the others trying to justify the killing of innocents:

Your argument that the terrorists were using civilian buildings and such for their operations holds no water. Of course they're using civilian buildings, they're not a military!!! They don't have the millions and billions of dollars in their military budget that Israel does!!

Why is it that when the U.S.A is fighting terrorists we don't indescriminatly bomb everything that might hold a terrorist? Why is it that America can preserve infrastructure and minimalize civilian casualties but Israel, who is using the same equipment, is unable to do so? Why is it that Americans make a distinction between terrorists and normal Arabs and I see Israelis on the news screaming "We must kill every last one!!"?

Grover,

I have never said that because it was OK to kill civilians because civilian infrastructure is in use by militants.

Why is it so difficult for those who sympathize with Arabs to understand.
Israel did NOT have military intelligence that the buildings were packed with civilians.
Another thing . . .SO LONG AS YOU USE CIVILIAN INFRASTRUCTURE FOR OFFENSIVE ACTIONS YOU ARE ENDANGERING CIVILIANS AND THEREFORE YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE.

If this was a sane world people would have been yelling murder as Hezbullah commiting a double sin - for using every civilian infrastructure on an offensive against the Israeli civilian population.

But in a corrupted world some misguided people have decided that Israel is in the wrong even before the facts are in and regardless of the circumstances you have an international outcry against the wrong side.

So with all the pain and suffering the Lebanese people will not be truely safe so long as Syria, Iran and Hezbullah call the shots in Lebanon.

A friend told me not too long ago that Syria is willing to fight Israel until the last drop of Lebanese blood. This is also true for Iran.

Think about it like this:
Mexico just fired some rockets at us and then kidnapped two border patrol guards.
What would we do in the us ?

I think bush would waste no time in bombing the missle sights even if they are civi sites .

Isnt that what we would expect ?

In case some of you did not understand this let me repeat myself.

Sometimes I feel like I am talking to children before they have reached the age of reason. So I am going to put it in as simple terms as possible.

War has failed.
War has failed in the Middle East.
War has failed the Palestinians.
War has failed the Israelis.
Still they fight.
One definition of crazy is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
War has failed the civilians on both sides.
War has failed the militarizes, or else they would have stopped fighting long ago.
War has failed the militants or else they would have stopped fighting long ago.
War has failed the politicians.
War has definitely failed the victims.
War has failed.
For sixty years war has failed.
War has failed.
What part of that don't you understand?

The only thing that they have not seriously tried is negotiations.
Underline the word serious.
When negotiations were tried with Egypt, they worked.
When negotiations were tried with Jordan, they worked.
When it comes to negotiations with the Palestinians, neither side is willing to work from a blank slate.
The Palestinians have their non-negotiable demands.
The Israelis have their non-negotiable demands.
The Syrians have their non-negotiable demands.
Hezbollah has their non-negotiable demands.
You cannot negotiate with non-negotiable demands...they are non-negotiable and as such deal breakers.
The only thing that they, as in all sides,
as in Israel,
as in Syria,
as in the Palestinians,
as in Hezbollah,
as in all sides
have not tried is honest negotiations
without non-negotiable demands,
with everything,
the Golan heights
settlements
the wall
right of return
everything, it all, everything
on the table.
Anything less, is less than good faith.
They have nothing left to lose except more blood.
And everything,
peace,
stability,
perhaps, in the long run
good will,
to gain.

And if honest negotiations fail,
well at least they tried.
They can go back to the bleeding
and both sides
be damned.

both sides be damned

Best thing I've heard the enitre thread

So let me get this straight war is bad ?
Thanks captain obvious !!!!



[edit on 2-8-2006 by imbalanced]

Imbalanced you continue to earn your name...not that war is bad, of course it is, but that refusing to negotiate is stupid.

This "war" is completely unbalanced and one sided,

Obviously Hezbubble don't think so. A war is won by the use of overwhelming force; haven't you noticed? This isn't "the 60's anymore!

grover.... if negotiations worked, the Middle East would be the most peaceful place on earth.

Of course they're using civilian buildings, they're not a military!!!

Check Google Earth...... there's so much empty land in Lebanon it's silly. Why aren't they there???

No rational discussion; facts don't matter. Bye you two......





[edit on 3-8-2006 by zappafan1]