50+ People Dead in Israeli Air Strike on Apartment House.

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
DE, it's my understanding that Israel has never returned the full package, only bits of it at a time. The 2002 accord backed by Egypt calls for the immediate return of ALL land captured during the 6 day beatdown, in exchange for a cease-fire, does it not? The Arab nations have agreed to those conditions, right?

What's the alternative? Pitch, to me, an alternative besides peace. Help me understand why you think Israel should keep blowing up buildings full of children. How does it help them in the least?

I'm refering to the pullout in 2005, which resulted in Gaza and the West Bank being granted a degree of autonomy, as well as a puulout of Israelis, civillians and soldiers alike. This, of course, resulted in the resumption of attack on Israeli civllians, the election of a terrorist government, and a lowscale exchange of artillery for seven months.

Wyrde, you're not so much pitching peace as terrorist appeasement. Hezbollah initiated a war with the IDF, hid among civillians. I don't like civillian casualties, hell I hate them. It's just sloppy as far as I'm concerned. As far as persecuting a war againt a terrorist group supplied by Iran and tolerated -if not aided and abbetted- by the Lebanese government... well, all the best of luck to them in that endevor, and hopefully civillian casualties will remain to a minimum.

You want the IDF not to defend its people, in order to preserve a fictional peace. Hezbollah initiated the hostilities, were the aggressor. Strange how people aren't screaming for THEIR blood.

DE

Originally posted by DeusEx This, of course, resulted in the resumption of attack on Israeli civllians, the election of a terrorist government, and a lowscale exchange of artillery for seven months.

A democratically elected government. The people spoke, that's the end of it.

You want the IDF not to defend its people, in order to preserve a fictional peace. Hezbollah initiated the hostilities, were the aggressor. Strange how people aren't screaming for THEIR blood.

But now they're both being the aggressor, and escalating events more and more, man! Personally, I am not screaming for anyone's blood, nor should anyone else, imo.

Just my piddly $0.02

Originally posted by grover
In response to Shots a survivor was interviewed and his response was telling..."Yes we were told to leave but they were also heavily bombing the only road out of here so what do we do?"

Well now that is a very easy cop out just so they can blame IDF forces for propaganda purposes. One would think they could have had other ways around the road per se that would have eventually allowed them to escape. That is what I would have done by that I mean looked for an alternate route, but wait that just makes to much sense doesn't it?

Oh come on now Shots...they just pull a man from the rubble, head bleeding and all he can think about is propaganda against Israel. Give me a break.

Originally posted by grover
Oh come on now Shots...they just pull a man from the rubble, head bleeding and all he can think about is propaganda against Israel. Give me a break.

You did not say that at first that puts a whole new light on the matter, however one would think there are alternate routes even if they had to go over mountains. Just use some common sense here.

Bombs do not rain down constantly they let up from time to time so they still could have used the main road even if they had to walk.



check the area that is what I did and while I am not positive I pin pointed the exact location, I can see at least two roads from what I believe is the area we are talking about. Unfortunately google earth does not show qana by name on the map if it did I would have a picture up right now just to show you there are.

[edit on 7/30/2006 by shots]

Generally I might agree with you but there is the old deer caught in the headlights syndrome. bombs are falling all around you, every way out is risky, staying is risky, so what do ya do, hunker down. Not an unusual response.

Originally posted by grover
Generally I might agree with you but there is the old deer caught in the headlights syndrome. bombs are falling all around you, every way out is risky, staying is risky, so what do ya do, hunker down.

That is no excuse. IDF gave them notice so they could have left even knowing dangers existed either way. The best thing to do in my mind would have been to get out while there were no bombs dropping.

Wyrde, you're not so much pitching peace as terrorist appeasement.

I don't support giving in to terrorists for the sake of the terrorists. I do, however, support doing anything necessary to reduce the misery visited upon people who, for the most part, have no love for either side.

It's quite obvious that militant Islam is a serious threat, and we certainly can't make the threat go away by ignoring it. However, I think it should be clear at this point that we also can't make the threat go away by bombing civilians. That strengthens the case presented by militants, and shifts more and more moderates into extremist views.

I'm 100% sure that the root problem cannot be solved with bombs and guns. The root of the problem is a culture that is indoctrinating the youth to hate people solely on the basis of their nationality/religion. Tell me how this problem is solved with offensives into S. Lebanon?

You want the IDF not to defend its people, in order to preserve a fictional peace. Hezbollah initiated the hostilities, were the aggressor.

I do want the IDF to defend its people. I'm also positive that blowing up refugee shelters is not defending Israel.

If the IDF wants to defend Israel, what the Hell are they doing in Lebanon? I defend my home from inside my home, I'm sure you do the same. I don't go around whacking all my sketchy neighbors, claiming self-defense.

I think Hezbollah, Hamas, all jihadists, are insane. Have I ever said anything to make you think otherwise? My point stands though, the way to defeat them is not to send scores of children to the morgue.

Explore the causes of extremism, and you'll see common threads. Poverty, ignorance, indoctrination in religious environments, embracing death and forsaking life - these are not problems solved by bombs, these are problems exacerbated by bombs.

Am I gettin' through to you at all?

Hey Grover I just watched CNN and saw three accounts of where offers were made to remove the people from the area and they refused the offers. That makes my point they did have a way out which is contrary to what you claimed.

Originally posted by shots

Originally posted by grover
Generally I might agree with you but there is the old deer caught in the headlights syndrome. bombs are falling all around you, every way out is risky, staying is risky, so what do ya do, hunker down.

That is no excuse. IDF gave them notice so they could have left even knowing dangers existed either way. The best thing to do in my mind would have been to get out while there were no bombs dropping.

It is easy for you and me to say what the right thing is from the safety of our homes far from any danger but if either of us were put in the exact same situition can we really say what we would do in a pinch? No we cannot. Besides that fact, ambulances had been bombed by Israel as had a UN outpost....the fear factor (pardon the referral to a horrid little show) can and often does out weigh reason.

Well I have not seen that so I cannot comment except to refer to what I said in my posting which is peasants rarely leave what they have no matter the danger because that is all that they have...it is a world wide phenoman.

It still does not justify what happened either way.

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but I just read that Israel has agreed to a 48 hour air cease-fire.

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
I'm 100% sure that the root problem cannot be solved with bombs and guns. The root of the problem is a culture that is indoctrinating the youth to hate people solely on the basis of their nationality/religion. Tell me how this problem is solved with offensives into S. Lebanon?

I am not so sure. The thing is... you leave the states which harbor and foster terrorism alone, and it just seeps in deeper and deeper. South Lebananon is a perfect example- leaving Hezbollah alone just let them build bunkers and rocket factories in densely-packed residential areas. It's clear the government of Lebanon wasn't doing anything about it, until Israel started bombing the bejesus out of everything, and it was only a matter of time before Hezbollah did somethign to cause that.

Again, Lebanon. Leaving Hezbollah and the PLO and the myriad of Palestinian terrorists groups that use it as a base for terrorism didn't help. They continued to spread their hate there. Doing nothing didn't help.

Sending children to the morgue won't help, of course. Uprooting these groups helps solve the problem...much more so than just letting the wound fester. Then again, this is not a wound, and no one has a scalpel. Even if they did, the removal of this infection would hardly be painless, considering that Israel needs it too. But then again, my concern is more than a conventional war- it's of another Six Day War, in which the Arab states decide they can solve the Israeli problem via military means. And the situation going nuclear.

DE

Originally posted by grover
It still does not justify what happened either way.

Now that would depend on how one looks at it.

Lets say you were the head of a nation (any nation) and your airborne intel craft showed missiles were being launched from a spot to attack your country, what would you do? Just sit and wait for another attack from the very same vehicle or would you try and eliminate it.

Too me that is a no brain-er you would take it out of course, but then I am just using common sense and responding as any human would. If a man attacks me with a knife I know darn well I am not going to just stand there and let him get away with it unlike you who apparently would :shk:


Edit to add: And let us not forget that lebonon agreed in a UN resolution to disband all milita units over two years ago but hezbollah still exists, yet you and others want to lay all the blame on IDF forces Sad Sad :shk:



[edit on 7/30/2006 by shots]

To proclaim Isreal as the oppresser in this situation is not right. the history of these two groups goes far further back than just the recent conflicts in southern lebanon. Let us not forget what happened when the jews first started their movement to Isreal. Palestine would not share and drew first blood. what the situation truly is, is merely a blood feud between who controls essentially...a desert. besides as an American I believe who ever attacks a terrorist run state like hezbollah is our ally. "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" or however the saying goes. given my igonorance, the loss of 750 Lebanese is horrible and the 51 Isrealis is tragic as well. but this 15/1 ratio still does not justify anymore blood shed that will undoubtubly happen.

Originally posted by Muaddib
Innocent people die in conflicts, that is a fact, but claiming that a country which is being attacked should just stop their military responses and continue taking the attacks directed at them shows 1. total disregard for the lives of Israeli civilians, 2. shows hatred towards one group of people, Jewish people.

Wow...just wow! You understand that your logic works both ways, don't you? If you would like me to point out how, there here it is:

Innocent people die in conflicts, that is a fact, but claiming that a country which is being attacked should just stop their military responses and continue taking the attacks directed at them shows 1. total disregard for the lives of Lebanese civilians, 2. shows hatred towards one group of people, Muslim people.

Do you still agree with your logic? I would like to ask you what makes you think that it's hatred towards the Jewish group rather than the Israeli government that's provoking the backlash?

Yes I can. But Souljah has the side that wishes to commit it confused.

Just like Hitler fought the Jews, we are a great Islamic nation of jihad, and we too should fight the Jews and burn them."

— Hisham Shamas, political science student, at a symposium hosted by Hezbollah's Al-Manar TV at Lebanon's largest and only government-run university, Université Libanaise, November 29, 2005

Iran's President Calls For Israel's Destruction



[edit on 7/30/2006 by eaglewingz]

The thing is... you leave the states which harbor and foster terrorism alone, and it just seeps in deeper and deeper.

To a point, yes, I agree. It will get much worse before it gets better. But here's the thing, the people who are upset, chanting in the streets and burning flags and firing weapons, their needs aren't being met by their governments. Wealthy and influential Arab leaders are using the West as a focal point, a distraction to keep order. The quality of life is so poor, and the unemployment is so rampant, that without the convenient distraction provided by Israel and the West, these nations would implode and their fundamentalism would leak out like so much spent waste.

Their people won't notice how crappy life is, as long as they remain focused on an external enemy. To an extent, the same thing happens in the US. If you refuse to play the role of the bad guy for them, I think that, before too long, the common people will turn their anger on their leaders, and tear down their ineffective governments.

Am I way off-base here?

Why are these radical preachers so successful? It's because the people they are preaching to are predominantly poor, out of work, hungry, illiterate (for the most part), and starving for social acceptance and the protection a community provides. These extreme interpretations of the Koran are so fatalistic, they can't achieve any measurable degree of popularity in countries with even a halfway decent standard of living.

We can't take all these people into our own communities without experiencing all the same problems here that they have there, so I think the only thing to do is isolate them, and allow the inherent instability of the system to bring it down.

South Lebananon is a perfect example- leaving Hezbollah alone just let them build bunkers and rocket factories in densely-packed residential areas. It's clear the government of Lebanon wasn't doing anything about it, until Israel started bombing the bejesus out of everything, and it was only a matter of time before Hezbollah did somethign to cause that.

From a purely practical standpoint, examine the efforts of both sides. The guerilla war machine is sustained with cheap chemicals, scrap metal, and plastic walkie-talkies. The IDF war machine is sustained by expensive fuel, high-tech munitions, specialized electronic components, space-based intelligence-gathering assetts, and the list goes on.

It's simply not practical to try to sustain such a conflict.

When the IDF blows up a building full of kids, it validates the opposition in the minds of many Arab moderates! It validates all the ridiculous, nauseating propaganda put out by Arab media - and that's the really important battleground, I think.

But then again, my concern is more than a conventional war- it's of another Six Day War, in which the Arab states decide they can solve the Israeli problem via military means. And the situation going nuclear.

That's a valid concern, but the way Israel is going seems to be making it even more likely, not less likely.

How about everyone gives all their land to the UN, then they can divy it up into the United States of North America, United States of Europe, United States of Asia, United States of Australia, United States of South America, United States of Antarctica, and United States of Africa

seems like a plan to me!

this post is completely in jest refering to the idiocy of giving up land
if you fight for and win land then it is yours

you'll see the USA give the west coast back to Mexico before you see israel give anymore land back to anyone.