Behold a White Horse

False.

Suppose you were hiking in the wilderness, and came upon something that nobody had ever described to you before. Let's say it was a tree that had been struck by lightning and burned, and had regrown afterward, with the burns leaving a visible pattern of scars.

After seeing this tree, you would know where it was and what it looked like. But nobody told you it was there, did they?

Sometimes knowledge comes from direct experience, not from someone else telling you things. With respect to God, ALWAYS knowledge comes from direct experience. It CANNOT come from someone else telling you, because this truth cannot be told in human language.

Twosteps....., please follow along here.

I asked you how did you learn the word "reality" and I also knew what your reply would be. You would either answer that you learned it in school or someone told you. The ironic thing here is that while you deny that truth can be expressed, someone in fact expressed to you the TRUTH of the human language so that you may understand what words mean.

Beyond that though, and far more important, is that you do not have knowledge because you observe. That's putting the cart before the horse.

Just think about this question and please reply to it. If you gained knowledge by observation (experience) how then did you KNOW you are observing anything if you have no knowledge in the first place??? Without knowledge FIRST you would be a blank mind and no amount of "observation" would ever amount to anything. You would stare empty at the word "reality".

This is why I stated that your worldview cannot account for knowledge. Given that you could not tell me how you learned the word "reality".

Originally posted by UnrealZA
The ironic thing here is that while you deny that truth can be expressed

Why do you persist in misquoting me? I do not deny that SOME truths can be expressed. That would be nonsense. Here:

2+2=4

The amount of energy in any closed system is a constant

The first words of the preamble of the U.S. Constitution are "We the People."

There are three truths expressible in language and easily communicated. Language is designed for communicating truth (and falsehood). But it can only communicate truth about matters of which its hearer has experience. Language can, for example, convey the fact that the waters of the Caribbean appear especially blue -- but only to a person who has seen both water and things that are blue. It cannot convey this fact to a blind person.

Since I was saying only that some truths cannot be conveyed in language, not that no truths can be, and since the remainder of your argument rests upon this misinterpretation of what I was saying, I need say no more on this subject.

If you gained knowledge by observation (experience) how then did you KNOW you are observing anything if you have no knowledge in the first place?

The knowledge I gain by observation (experience) is not the knowledge THAT I am observing. It is, rather, knowlege about that which I am observing. I don't actually need to know that I am observing anything in order to do it and gain knowledge that way.

Knowledge that I am observing is gained by an analogous but somewhat differerent process: reflection. I do not need to know this a priori, and certainly nobody needs to tell me in order for me to know it. It's possible to figure it out on my own.

So, clearly no one here is a follower of Ahura Mazda. Yes, you heard it right the "Wise Lord". Zoroaster (aka Zarathustra to some of you) made some pretty interesting observations in that human beings are co-workers of Ahura Mazda, but not his slaves because Zarathushtra does not implore blind faith but a reflective philosophy based on knowledge and learning.

I must say that I approve of a religion that promotes teaching that each person can strive to bring serenity to this world to promote happiness. If we live our lives with goodness towards all creations, then it can also influence others to goodness, and this in turn would set in motion a cycle of good deeds that goes on forever.

"Zoroastrian religion is liberal, comforting, egalitarian and contemplative, and encourages reliance on personal responsibility."

That all sounds pretty good to me, a compassionate god. Much nicer than any of the others that are about at the moment...... pre dates most of them too.

[These verses refer to Revelations chapter 19:11-21, when the Word of God destroys His enemies: "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse: and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True. . . His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns, and He had a Name written that no man knew but Himself. And He was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood, and His Name is called The Word of God. . . and He trod the winepress of God’s fierce anger"./ex] end of external...

from: www.biblebelievers.org.au...

Lolove n luck etc... Ave Maria ! riding ! with Joseph the son-of-david on the Donkey !

Knowledge without Wisdom is a 'program'... Infinity

Originally posted by georgejohn

[These verses refer to Revelations chapter 19:11-21, when the Word of God destroys His enemies: "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse: and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True. . . His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns, and He had a Name written that no man knew but Himself. And He was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood, and His Name is called The Word of God. . . and He trod the winepress of God’s fierce anger".

end of external...

from: www.biblebelievers.org.au...

Lolove n luck etc... Ave Maria ! riding ! with Joseph the son-of-david on the Donkey !

Knowledge without Wisdom is a 'program'... Infinity

GJ; excellent article. (Very enlightening). It makes a lot of sense in that the nation that always claims to be some kind of underdog claims so many were exterminated, when the fact is that far fewer actually/probably were. I am not saying that the so-called Jews weren't rounded up, but that the hard headed ones and a few others not welcome in Europe were - in numbers - far less than the Jews today claim. By this, they would be hypocrites to gain the sympathy of "Christians", who know not who the King is.

[edit on 30-8-2006 by ben91069]

the Ride on the 'White Horse'..a quote from David...

Moving on then, I know that I have beat this particular horse before, on more than one occasion, but bear with me here because I feel that I need to point out once again, for the benefit of the slow learners in the crowd, that the basic principle by which this country’s political establishment operates is - now pay attention! - control through fear.



Everyone understands that … right?



I mean, it’s pretty basic stuff – scare the hell out of people and they’ll obediently follow whatever path they are told is the safe path to follow. Of course, it probably won’t really be the safe path to follow, and there probably won’t really be anything to fear – other than the motives and intentions of those directing you down the path. But if you really scare the bejesus out of somebody, none of that is going to matter to them at the time.

from: www.davesweb.cnchost.com...

And the bible/bullies/sluts/idiots/gluttons/etc work in the same... the threats etc....when JC is the God-of-Love and as JC said...You will not see Me, until you say, Blessed are they who come/cum in the Name-of-the-Lord...and that is part of the Great Command-ment that JC gave, LOVE !

Lolove n luck and good passion/emotions/humor/health/etc...Ave Maria ! all the beautiful sounds in the World in one wonderful Word, Maria !

Knowledge without Wisdom n Love is a 'program'...Infinity

I should be sleeping right now, but I have no place to lay my head

Yes, GeorgeJohn has said it right when he speaks of a young man too scared to have intercourse with a woman, when the Father arranged the wedding feast. The orgasm he speaks is the truth of the conception. Poor Mary is a virgin without a husband. She has her own lamp, but as you all know the oil of the world is getting quite pricey! Soon she won't be able to afford it and then be married in the dark.

GJ, keep it rollin.

Please provide any substantiation you have to support the hypothesis of Mary having sexual intercourse with any man. Do you honestly believe that no-one in Jesus' time made the same accusation?

[edit on 30-8-2006 by saint4God]

Please provide any substantiation you have to support the hypothesis of Mary having sexual intercourse with any man.

The brothers and Sisters of Jesus including The Twin.

looks like its that time in the Ride/Show for the 'great babylonian harlot' to come out of her 'closet' and 'confess' her sins to father McKenzie, maybe she would like to do it at the 'helen hayes theater' [do a google on st helen] next to 'sardis' [do a google on the movie 'switch' 1991 with Ellen Barkin n see it, esp. the end as well as the Sardis scene, what a movie ]...ohhh my gosh [omg] as we ride down the Great White Way at 47/Bway [father Duffy sq.] in Times Square [down the street from the Khazar/Jewish Diamond Exchange][ kisses to Ms Lovelace]

Yes, she can tell us of her 'thrills' of biting necks and her other methods of sucking blood... getting drunk on the 'blood' of the saints...

As 'she' sends 'Johnny Boy' off to War for more 'blood' as her daughters delight in 'female intrigue[s]' for her to drink in ! www.thefreedictionary.com...

And 'davie' joins the 'navy' and may be in there for 'life'...

To-be-continued ! we pray... Infinity

Lolove n luck etc.... Ave Maria ! the 13yo Mother-of-GOD/Madonna with Jesus the 13yo Man !



JC, the 'Playwright'... Fetal King of un-ending Glory... the-best-is-yet-to-come !

for Saint Helen: www.newadvent.org...

for "Switch": www.imdb.com...

[edit on 30-8-2006 by georgejohn]

Originally posted by stalkingwolf
The brothers

Aha! Well done! You've caught me being nonspecific. 1 Point for stalkingwolf and here are the proofs:

Matthew 12:46
While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him.

Mark 3:31
Then Jesus' mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him.

Luke 8:19
Now Jesus' mother and brothers came to see him, but they were not able to get near him because of the crowd.

John 2:12
After this he went down to Capernaum with his mother and brothers and his disciples. There they stayed for a few days.

I digress and please allow me to rephrase:

Please provide any substantiation you have to support the hypothesis of Mary having sexual intercourse with any man prior to the birth of Jesus. Do you honestly believe that no-one in Jesus' time made the same accusation?

Originally posted by stalkingwolf
and Sisters of Jesus including The Twin.

Whoa hey! Where is this "Sisters" and "The Twin" coming from?

Originally posted by saint4God
Please provide any substantiation you have to support the hypothesis of Mary having sexual intercourse with any man prior to the birth of Jesus.

How about this:

1A record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ the son of David, the son of Abraham:
2Abraham was the father of Isaac,
Isaac the father of Jacob. . .

16and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

Gospel of Matthew, chapter 1.

Now I realize that Matthew goes on in the very next chapter to recount the story of the virgin birth, but the fact remains he lists all these generations as recording "the genealogy of Jesus Christ the son of David." In other words, the first two chapters of his Gospel directly contradict each other.

But you did ask for "any substantiation," and although this substantiation is not uncontroverted, there it is.

Do you honestly believe that no-one in Jesus' time made the same accusation?

What I honestly believe is that the story of the virgin birth was added later on to appeal to Greeks, and that nobody in Jesus' time made the same accusation because, absent the claim of virgin birth, it was an accusation of nothing important. "Your mother had sex with your father!" "Well, DUH!"

Whoa hey! Where is this "Sisters" and "The Twin" coming from?

Good question. The answer should be interesting.

So whatever happened to the White Horse? You know, from the original post?

I mean, carry on and all. I was just curious.

Originally posted by Two Steps Forward
How about this:

1A record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ the son of David, the son of Abraham:
2Abraham was the father of Isaac,
Isaac the father of Jacob. . .

16and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

Gospel of Matthew, chapter 1.

Now I realize that Matthew goes on in the very next chapter to recount the story of the virgin birth,

Stop right there. Indeed it does:

This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit. Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man and did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.
But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, "Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins."

Originally posted by Two Steps Forward
but the fact remains he lists all these generations as recording "the genealogy of Jesus Christ the son of David." In other words, the first two chapters of his Gospel directly contradict each other.

Nope. That next chapter explains, and so does daniel and the preceeding books. The reason why he had to have a foster father in David's lineage is the fulfillment of a very specific prophecy.

Originally posted by Two Steps Forward
But you did ask for "any substantiation," and although this substantiation is not uncontroverted, there it is.

It was a good attempt, yet falls short of the substantiation mark. It does not demonstrate that before the birth of Christ, Mary had intercourse with any man

Originally posted by Two Steps Forward
What I honestly believe is that the story of the virgin birth was added later on to appeal to Greeks, and that nobody in Jesus' time made the same accusation because, absent the claim of virgin birth, it was an accusation of nothing important. "Your mother had sex with your father!" "Well, DUH!"

This negates so many passages in the gospel text I could not possibly list them all. But, here's a start:

"They said, "Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, 'I came down from heaven'?" - John 6:42

"Moreover, demons came out of many people, shouting, "You are the Son of God!" But he rebuked them and would not allow them to speak, because they knew he was the Christ." - Luke 4:41

Did the Hebrews also "add him in" after the Old Testament times?

Isaiah 9:6
"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."

why Joseph would not have stayed with Mary if he wasn't angelically ordered to:

"Don't marry a divorced woman or any other woman who has already had sex..." - Leviticus 21:14b

Originally posted by dnero6911
I mean this with all sincerity, I actually want to know your opinion...

Could you give me a detailed account of how this is happening in our day to day lives..

Define, God, Christ, and faith please... and describe how one would put their faith in christ, in a way we can do this in our day to day actions.

If you can do this I would be impressed (if you did it in a way that related to me so I could understand) ... although I would still like your opinion/deduction...

I'm hoping to get this all down in one post but, because of a busy day and much to say that may not happen.

God is the Supreme Being, who never had a beginning nor will He ever have an ending, He has always been around and in existence. He is distinct and seperate from His creation. Is God a tree, no. Is He responsible for the tree's existence, yes. Can you see God in the tree, yes. Not that He is the tree but you can see God's power and imagination and creative abilities in all the shapes, sizes, colors of trees. You can see His providence for mankind in the trees. He created them knowing that we would need them to use as fuel to keep warm, cook food, build houses, make writing paper etc. many other things could be said about trees, and then you could move onto grass, animals(look at the millions of kinds of animals) the sun etc. There are so many individual items that could be discussed that one would die before everything could be discussed.

He is the one who created all of creation.( now to define creation a little bit, this for example). God created the earth and what it is made of. So that would mean God created iron ore deposits that are used for making steel. Now men and women take the iron ore and put it through processes to manipulate it and make it into steel for buildings, cars, trains etc. Very useful things which help our day to day lives. Now take a rifle for instance, God knew a rifle would be made and maybe even gave someone the inspiration and drive to make it. 150 years ago a gun would come in handy to hunt for food so that you could provide for your family. If a bear was getting ready to attack your children you could use the gun to shoot the bear and save your family.

Then man's inner heart is revealed in the gun. If a bear that is attacking me can be killed, that group of people over there that I hate could also be killed with this gun. If I kill them I could get their stuff for myself. But the desire to kill showed up way before the gun. Abel accomplished that act shortly after he came into existence. Mankind will try to find perverted uses for useful items.

Jesus Christ is God, He has always been and will never have an end. He created what we see in creation. He made preincarnate appearances on earth and at a predetermined time was born into a physical human body and lived like us and experienced all that we experience. Since He did that, He knows what it's like to be human. Yet He lived without sin and because of that can be the sustitutionary sacrifice that can remove sin and pay it's penalty. Because He can do this sins can be forgiven and a person can be restored to God. He also willingly did this.

The Bible definition for faith is,Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

A definition from myself, what you believe,trust in, accept, rely on.

Everybody expresses faith every day in many ways yet we don't think to view it as faith. A lillte baby who's hungry cries. That crying while a symptom of a need is also a expression of faith. He/she knows if they cry someone will come and give them what they need food.

Move onto something else. Tomorrow morning you will go outside to start your car to get to work. You are putting faith in the fact that that key will turn and start the engine so that you can go to work to earn a living. If the car doesn't start then you have faith in the mechanic to get it running again.

Many, many other examples of everyday faith.

Move onto salvation and living forever with God.

Some people have faith in their ability to perform good works. They believe, trust in, accept,rely on that if their good deeds outnumber their bad then they will enter heaven.

Some people place their faith in being reincarnated until they attain nothingness and are at peace and become part of all that is "God".

Many other examples of religious faith.

For a christian faith in the hereafter and life in eternity with God is based upon one thing. Jesus Christ. I believe that I am seperated from God because I have broken the laws of God. One sin seperates someone from God. I am responsible for my sin and the consequences of sin is death and seperation from God for all of eternity. No if's and s or buts about it. The good deed doer, who also feels consequences for sins comitted, and so tries to outnumber them with good deeds to attain eternal life. So not only christians realize there are consequences for sin.

But God knew and knows that once a sin is comitted by someone they are sentenced to eternal death away from Him. (satan also knows this). So God because He loves us, predetermined a way that sins could be receive the death sentence that is required by His own law. (This part of the plan satan did not know until it came about). God Himself, would leave heaven and all it's glory and all His glory, and have Himself be contained in a human body and take upon Himself the death sin brings. God's plan was one of a transfer of sins to a substitute.

In other words a trade. I've traded something before for something ealse, everybody does. Each day we trade our bodies and minds to our bosses for money in the form of a paycheck.

So Jesus offers a trade, If we give Him our sins, He will give us His sinlessness. And this is perfectly justified to God. When the sins are given to Christ they are crucified in Him on the cross. He took the wrath and punishment and seperation from God that sin brings, on the cross. The cross is the ultimate example of the words mercy and grace.

Mercy means not receiving what someone deserves, in our case death and seperation from God for our sins.

Grace means receiving what someone doesn't deserve, in our case forgiveness of sins and eternal everlasting life with God.

If someone offered to trade you cars. They would give you a brand new 2007 Cadillac, for your 1987 Chevy cavaliar, it would be foolish of you not to accept, receive the trade.

Then how much more should a person be willing to trade a coming eternal death sentence, for a complete pardon and eternal life.

Now if the trade is accepted, a wonderful thing takes place. First of all the above mentioned trade. Sins are removed and God will not even remember them. God will forget them. Then God will move into your house(body) and live to be continued.....................

[edit on 30-8-2006 by dbrandt]

[edit on 30-8-2006 by dbrandt]

[edit on 30-8-2006 by dbrandt]

Originally posted by saint4God
The reason why he had to have a foster father in David's lineage is the fulfillment of a very specific prophecy.

I don't recall anything from Daniel about the prophecied one being a foster child. He was supposed to be of the House of David. Well, if that lineage Matthew gives us is correct, and if Joseph was Jesus' father, then Jesus was of the House of David. But if Jesus was a virgin birth, then unless Mary was also descended from David, then he was not.

This negates so many passages in the gospel text I could not possibly list them all. But, here's a start:

"They said, "Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, 'I came down from heaven'?" - John 6:42

"Moreover, demons came out of many people, shouting, "You are the Son of God!" But he rebuked them and would not allow them to speak, because they knew he was the Christ." - Luke 4:41

There you go again, making an interpretation and not seeing that you're doing it.

"I came down from heaven" does not mean "my mother never had sex with her husband before I was born." And anyway, there is absolutely no dispute about who his mother was.

"You are the Son of God" has many possible meanings; only one of those makes God out to have mated with a mortal woman like a Greek deity (and that is why I think the virgin birth was invented to appeal to Greeks; Jews would not need such a thing).

Isaiah 9:6
"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."

I don't see anything about virgin birth in there, do you?

[edit on 30-8-2006 by Two Steps Forward]

Sorry, didn't mean Daniel, I meant Isaiah. Thanks for the heads up, it made me look it up again:

Isaiah 7:14

"Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel."

continued............

Since the Holy Spirit(God) lives in us, He is with us each and everyday to help us in all decisions and as we learn from Him plus reading the Bible and praying and God talking with us we learn to think anew and reject our old habits and ways that result in us doing and thinking and speaking things we shouldn't. The thing is everything should filter through God. Each decision, thought, action, deed matters. And since it matters we need the proper response. So lets say someone places their faith in Christ and decisions need to be made. That person may need to seek the Bible for the proper response. But as a person matures in Christ and the Bible is memorized, a decision may arise and because that person knows what the Bible says immediately He can give the proper response. The goal is to get so close to God that a peice of paper can't fit between the two of you.

Now as far as faith, it would be a noun and a verb at the same time. It's something that is something, but also does something. It's an invisible quality that shows itself in actions, words,thoughts and deeds.

God tells us He desires all to be saved, He wants none to perish. He also tells us that our faith to believe comes from Him, it's not of ourselves that we can boast about it. This puts everyone on the same playing field and tells us that God loves us all the same. I believe this also tells us another thing. That since God wants everyone saved He is constantly trying to get everyones attention on Christ for salvation. So whether that means as He tries to get people's attention that "faith" is already in us and pointed the wrong way or is dead and He is trying to get it turned toward Christ, or He has the faith in Christ right by us and all we need to do is grab hold of it. Kinda like if someone was drowning and they were thrown a life preserver. If you don't grab hold of it it won't do you any good, you're still gonna drown.

So if someone believed reincarnation(which isn't true) they would believe that at some point they would reincarnate for the last time and finally achieve oneness with "god". I should have mentioned something about faith on the other post. An atheist even has faith. His/her faith is placed in there not being a God.

The christian also has a goal each day we are moving toward being what God desires that we should be, and what we would want to be if we knew what He knows. We won't be a God but are being transformed to be like Him in various aspects. This process will take the rest of this life. Then at death we will be with God and/or when Christ returns we will be changed and have a new immortal body. Then instead of becoming a "borg" who can't think for himself. We will be sinless and be like God in various aspects, but we will still retain individuality and a personality and will live forever with God.

Her Highness Maria is of the 'house-of-david' on her dads side and of the 'house-of-aaron' on her moms side... that is why JC's cous is John the Baptist, who's dad was a 'high-priest'...... the 'term brother' was used to descibe 'cousins'....

Mary is the ever Virgin Mother of all Creation and had us all with Jesus on Her Breast and also at 'Calvary' and into Infinity

Lolove n luck n good passion/emotions/humor/health/etc... Ave Maria !

[ welcome home ] Joseph-the-son-of-David... Mary the-daughter-of-David

IN US ALL ! as we behold the Glory of Jesus/God to-get-her !