Behold a White Horse

It really saddens me to see everyone bickering like this. Arguing about who's right and who's wrong.

Why can't people just see that there is no right or wrong. We are all loved and forgiven. Instead of arguing about our beliefs, we should be focused on making our home a better place for all.

Love is all there is in the end, so why do we fight now? I don't wish to argue with anyone, I simply wish for all to open their eyes and feel true love. To understand that God is love and light.

Please can we all just stop fighting and start loving. When you feel what love truely is, it is hard not to love everything and everyone. All I ask is that you consider my words, if they don't ring true to you, then you aren't ready for them.

Please stop fighting.

Love and light to all.

Originally posted by ben91069
I have stated the truth that all sins are forgiven, and you say this is a deception, but you cannot clarify how the opposite of salvation (judgement) saves anyone. I openly state my truth, so it is not a deception for the world to say I am hiding behind something, yet you cannot say where you stand, because you can only say this person is good and this person is bad, but can never justify why some are saved and others are not. Tell me truthfully why God is going to destroy us and spare you.

If the world bank gave everyone on the planet a check for 1 million dollars, you could say everyone is a millionaire but if they don't cash the check, what good did it do. God sent his Son to die for the sins of men. If you reject the free gift, what good will it do. Your sins will not be forgiven.

Water facilitates slow decomposition, and fire is the quick method. Both yield the same result - purity. But you say I twist things. What am I twisting Sun?

Here a perfect example. The result is not purity, it is judgment.

Well this is a good way to not answer the question. The serpent is the deciever, but you didn't answer the latter of which; does the serpent speak of salvation or judgment. Do you want to try again and answer this or do I have to ask it over and over until you do give a simple yes or no answer or do I have to show that you dodge the question. It is very simple; does the serpent judge?

The serpent cannot judge. He can only accuse and deceive. And you have been deceived.

How is your faith different than any other which places conditions on salvation? Love is "unconditional".

I have faith in the Messiah, not the serpent, I am not deceived.

So (in your words), you can only believe that all sins are forgiven if you use a sacrifice as the payment. Is this not contradictory in and of itself as regards to a free gift? If it were truly free, then you would not need a sacrfice or payment.

If I gave you 10 million dollars with no strings other than you asking for it, was it not free? Would that not be a sacrifice to me?

Which is greater Sun, iron or the stone used to sharpen them? My iron is not a sword used to dismember the body, but a plowshare to be used to sow the seed. Beware, it is almost October and the harvest approaches.

Why should I beware. All are saved in your faith. There will be no harvest in October, sorry. No trumpet blowing this October. I'll hold you to this, and when it does not happen, then what?

Originally posted by 7Pan7cho7
It really saddens me to see everyone bickering like this. Arguing about who's right and who's wrong.

....................

Please stop fighting.

Love and light to all.

And you're correct.

Some people already have their reward so I will leave it at that.

Originally posted by 7Pan7cho7
It really saddens me to see everyone bickering like this. Arguing about who's right and who's wrong.

Why can't people just see that there is no right or wrong. We are all loved and forgiven. Instead of arguing about our beliefs, we should be focused on making our home a better place for all.

Love is all there is in the end, so why do we fight now? I don't wish to argue with anyone, I simply wish for all to open their eyes and feel true love. To understand that God is love and light.

Please can we all just stop fighting and start loving. When you feel what love truely is, it is hard not to love everything and everyone. All I ask is that you consider my words, if they don't ring true to you, then you aren't ready for them.

Please stop fighting.

Love and light to all.

Be happy to translate this for anyone that doesn't understand.

What he really said was:

Whats going on over here fellow wolves dressed in sheeps clothes. How can you lead anyone astray if they see your swords and axes. Put on the cloak of love and lead the sheep to the slaughter.
Why can't you people just believe the lie that there is no right or wrong. Why can't you just believe the lie instead of what God said.



Now if you need a translation of what you consider a lack of love from my comments then consider the sheperd. When the wolf comes to devour the sheep how does the sheperd respond? Does he treat the wolf with love and say, my you must be hungry let me turn my back. Or does the sheperd draw his weapon and protect his Fathers sheep? Lots of lost sheep very few sheperds.

Originally posted by Sun MatrixWhat he really said was:

Whats going on over here fellow wolves dressed in sheeps clothes. How can you lead anyone astray if they see your swords and axes.

No, that's not what he said, because that people are here trying to "lead others astray" is your own personal delusion, and not something shared by those you are accusing. That is: THEY don't believe they are leading anyone astray, only YOU believe that. And so no, it is quite impossible that what you stated is what he meant.

Arguably, the biggest problem with Christianity in its exclusivist, one-way form is the resulting paranoia, of which we've just seen a good example.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
Be happy to translate this for anyone that doesn't understand.

Get 'em Sun! That person sounds like a freakin' hippie to me especially with the benrfit of your "translation". We dont want anyone to come dancing 'round here with their "peace and love" claptrap. Deceivers!!!.

Good thing we've got the only truth bearer, Sunny Jim Matrix to protect us from all the eeeeevil. He's like, read stuff and knows all and can see into your heart and soul.

Sheesh.:shk:

Originally posted by 7Pan7cho7


Why can't people just see that there is no right or wrong.

I have seen many people post this same comment. I cannot understand why people say this and/or believe this.

If true, the minimart robber should be able to freely steal as often as he wants. If this were to be true, then Scott Peterson should be free. People who abduct children and sexually assault them should be allowed to continue. The President of Iran should be allowed to make nuclear weapons and use them on whoever he wants. You see, just because these things seem wrong to us they could be right for them. How ridiculous.

I cannot believe there are people who honestly believe there is no right and wrong. Of course there is right and wrong, good and bad.

[edit on 26-8-2006 by dbrandt]

[edit on 26-8-2006 by dbrandt]

"There is no right and wrong" is an inadequate way of putting it, but there is a truth underlying it. To quote President Clinton, it depends on what the meaning of "is" is.

We are faced with the necessity of making moral judgments. It's part of our position in the world. We must choose one action over another in most circumstances. Also, we are social beings, responsible to others as well as to our own desires. Combine these two, and distinguishing right from wrong becomes an unavoidable part of who we are as human beings.

In that sense, yes, there are such things as right and wrong. BUT -- they exist because we create them. They are products of our will, of our value judgments based on what we see as the larger goals beyond selfishness.

The error comes when we think that right and wrong exist objectively, in themselves. Defining virtue as "obedience to God" is one form of this error (although not the only form). It externalizes good and evil, and removes the act of human will that defines them into being.

As a practical matter, the error can be very serious indeed. If a person surrenders his/her right of moral judgment to an authority (and in practice, the authority is not God, but rather a human agency, living or dead, which the person accepts as speaking on God's behalf -- usually scripture and/or a church), he or she may be led into doing truly abominable acts and thinking that they are doing good. The Inquisition and the Crusades are excellent examples.

Even in those situations, though, the ultimate decider of good and evil is not the accepted authority, but the person who did the accepting.

To summarize:

There "is" no right and wrong if "is" means "exists objectively apart from human perception and judgment."

There "is" right and wrong if "is" means "exists, regardless of how it came to be."

Originally posted by Two Steps Forward
"There is no right and wrong" is an inadequate way of putting it, but there is a truth underlying it. To quote President Clinton, it depends on what the meaning of "is" is.

Your point became mute as soon as you brought the above mentioned into your side of the argument.

Originally posted by dbrandt
I cannot believe there are people who honestly believe there is no right and wrong. Of course there is right and wrong, good and bad.

Only in the physical world, and judging by that. You have every notion to believe this as it is quite obvious that the physical world does contain two opposing forces.

However, from the perspective of God, who is not limited to the physical world, a person dying, a convenience store robbery are all nonsense. God cannot see right and wrong when he has the power to give back infinitely both a life and something taken. To God, life is not a physical body, but the spirit within the body. Theft of anything is based on values we place upon them within a system of limited resources, where we all work to gain a share of it. So in this way, theft can be viewed as wrong, but with God in a system of unlimited resources, it is an impossibility for anyone to actually steal anything, because the measure of infinity cannot be subtracted from.

So in essence, believing in forgiveness of all sins denies right and wrong a chance to do their work, and brings the believer into alignment with the judgment of truth rather than the judgment of man.

Originally posted by ben91069
Only in the physical world, and judging by that. You have every notion to believe this as it is quite obvious that the physical world does contain two opposing forces.

However, from the perspective of God, who is not limited to the physical world, a person dying, a convenience store robbery are all nonsense.

To God, life is not a physical body, but the spirit within the body.

God made the physical world along with the spiritual. God made our physical bodies. Jesus, who is God, had/has a physical body.

The physical world is extremely important to God.

Sins are not nonsense to God, there are a serious matter, so serious that He came to take the wrath of God for them so that they could be removed(literally) from us through faith in Jesus Christ.

We will have a physical body through all of eternity. So I disagree with you that the physical is not important to God.

Originally posted by dbrandt

Originally posted by Two Steps Forward
"There is no right and wrong" is an inadequate way of putting it, but there is a truth underlying it. To quote President Clinton, it depends on what the meaning of "is" is.

Your point became mute as soon as you brought the above mentioned into your side of the argument.

Sorry, that's a cop-out.

Besides, you don't know how to spell "moot."

Originally posted by dbrandtSins are not nonsense to God, there are a serious matter, so serious that He came to take the wrath of God for them so that they could be removed(literally) from us through faith in Jesus Christ.

(Sigh.)

More parrot-talk.

Have you ever stopped to consider that God needing to go through some complicated rigmarole to forgive His own wrath is itself pretty nonsensical?

But there's a deeper problem with what you have parroted here. And that's that you are surrendering your own moral sense, your right and responsibility to determine yourself what is right and what is wrong, and binding the decision to someone else's teaching, someone else speaking for God.

As already noted, in a post that you had no answer for and so chose a cop-out, this has led historically to great and terrible crimes.

Originally posted by Two Steps Forward
Sorry, that's a cop-out.

Besides, you don't know how to spell "moot."

I used the word I wanted to, but should have put an (ed) on the end of it.

mute

1. silent
2. not emitting or having sound of any kind.
3. Phonetics. a stop.

Not at all a copout. The person given as a reference is not knowledgable on what is right and wrong(also not known for telling the truth). If you would have referenced franklin Graham you would have had my attention.

Originally posted by dbrandtNot at all a copout. The person given as a reference

I gave nobody as a reference. I referred, humorously, to Bill Clinton's famous truth-dance about what "is" means. The point I made was mine, not his.

Nice try, though.

Get 'em Sun! That person sounds like a freakin' hippie to me especially with the benrfit of your "translation". We dont want anyone to come dancing 'round here with their "peace and love" claptrap. Deceivers!!!.

Good thing we've got the only truth bearer, Sunny Jim Matrix to protect us from all the eeeeevil. He's like, read stuff and knows all and can see into your heart and soul.

Sheesh.:shk:

Yes, if trying to get the world to stop this foolish battle of pride and ego makes me a hippie, then so be it. If me being 18 yrs old and understanding what love actually feels like, hard as it may be for you to believe that an 18 yr old can accept something that you won't. I don't touch drugs nor do I drink, so whatever you wish to call me go ahead, i will forgive you and I will not judge you for it, I know what it's like to be confused.

I'm not saying that I'm right and your wrong, but I just find it hard to believe that the creator of all that is would rule with fear instead of love. Lose your fear and you will find love. In the end, love prevails over all.

Originally posted by yeahright

Get 'em Sun! That person sounds like a freakin' hippie to me especially with the benrfit of your "translation". We dont want anyone to come dancing 'round here with their "peace and love" claptrap. Deceivers!!!.


Sheesh.:shk:

I don't much like to waste my time with posters that really don't have much to contribute. I did take the time to look at the threads that you have started just to give you the benefit of the doubt.

LOL

Originally posted by dbrandt

Originally posted by 7Pan7cho7


Why can't people just see that there is no right or wrong.

I have seen many people post this same comment. I cannot understand why people say this and/or believe this.

If true, the minimart robber should be able to freely steal as often as he wants. If this were to be true, then Scott Peterson should be free. People who abduct children and sexually assault them should be allowed to continue. The President of Iran should be allowed to make nuclear weapons and use them on whoever he wants. You see, just because these things seem wrong to us they could be right for them. How ridiculous.

I cannot believe there are people who honestly believe there is no right and wrong. Of course there is right and wrong, good and bad.

what I meant was that when you lose the fear that goes along with right and wrong, you find only love. And when you truly find love, you longer wish to commit these types of acts.

Originally posted by Two Steps Forward

Have you ever stopped to consider that God needing to go through some complicated rigmarole to forgive His own wrath is itself pretty nonsensical?

But there's a deeper problem with what you have parroted here. And that's that you are surrendering your own moral sense, your right and responsibility to determine yourself what is right and what is wrong, and binding the decision to someone else's teaching, someone else speaking for God.

I'll answer the parrot talk first. The astronauts that fly the space shuttle aren't the people who designed it and built it. The had to go through training and reading and learning to find out what all of the buttons do that make it operate properly. They had to learn what responses are necesaary for certain situations.

How dare they listen to what other people wrote about and are" telling" them to do to make it work right. And those people down on earth in Houston giving them instructions, boy they have guts. I say forget the other people and the learning, get in that shuttle, start punching some buttons and make that thing run. After all nobody will ever have to say, Houston, we have a problem".

Sounds ridiculous right? Same thing with the Bible. It's an instruction book for how to operate in a complex universe.

Now, this is what else I have considered.

You are right God could have said, you know what these humans had it good and blew it by not believing me. It's their own fault, to hell with all of them.

Loving response, no, but it would have been legal and justified and not wrong. God cannot live with sin and the only way to live with God is to be perfect. So here lies the problem. How does God live among people He loves when the law says Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. And Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death

If someone who had raped a little 7 year old girl, and without a doubt the evidence proves his guilt, came before the juge for sentencing and the judge says, "I'm going to overlook the law and set you free" and/or "the guilty is too short to go to prison, justice has no place in this courtroom". We would think the judge was stupid and corrupt and not worthy of being in his position.

God is in a greater position of jusitice, plus He loves us and desires to fix the problem. Sin had to be dealt with. So a substitute came to face the Law. This Substitute knew the law had to be enforced. He knew this was serious business and knew there was no other way. This Substitue didn't want us to spend eternity in the loneliness of and torment of and desperation of hell. So He had sin transferred at the cross to Himself(literally) so that the punishment and justice that the law says is required would be enforced and fulfilled.

So you call it "rigmorale". God calls it mercy and grace and the way to satisfy the law.

My own moral sense was tainted until I received Christ. So it was not reliable.

As far as responsibility, it now involves trusting God and placing faith in Him.

Originally posted by dbrandt
God made the physical world along with the spiritual. God made our physical bodies. Jesus, who is God, had/has a physical body.

The physical world is extremely important to God.

Sins are not nonsense to God, there are a serious matter, so serious that He came to take the wrath of God for them so that they could be removed(literally) from us through faith in Jesus Christ.

We will have a physical body through all of eternity. So I disagree with you that the physical is not important to God.

Perhaps I didn't phrase it correctly. I am not trying to say that the physical world is nothing to God, for it has it's very own purpose. What I am saying is that if we believe in a physical judgement, then we get our reward just like we ask. If we see past the physical, then we are literally asking God to judge us in spirit and then the physical judgement becomes obsolete. It is much like Jesus words regarding washing of a cup. We should not work towards washing the outside of the cup, for the inside will still be dirty, but rather wash the inside of the cup and then no matter how dirty the outside appears, it will still be clean, because the inside is what contains the water which gives us life.

So, in fact the physical has a purpose but regarding judgment it only has meaning when one believes in that same judgment in the flesh.