The Fact is, Jesus is the prophesied Messiah

OneGodJesus:
Please explain the relevance of science in your argument. What point are you trying to make? As I already demonstrated with the link I gave you in a previous post, in my opinion, science is just another religion in disguise, flaws and all. Regardless of the subject, opinions are not facts. Agreed?

IAF101:
I think the significance of Christ's death and why it is considered a sacrifice was not in the way He died, but that He chose not to save himself from death as He could have done being who He was.

SUNMATRIX,
Sorry, i have been busy ans just getting here again.
anyway, I pointed some things out to you and you really did not come up with any kind of valid answers to what i said.
Soooo...

Another thing I dont understand is that why is the cross, a symbol of death, taken as a symbol for the faith ? What would have happened if Christ was nailed on a circle or a just staked on a big pole in the ground ? Would these become our symbols ? They say it was Christ's sacrifice okay I get that then why not take some other form of his sacrifice ? Because to claim the cross would also mean the thousands upon thousands of other including criminals, slaves etc who were also crucified as people of his order. The symbol just seems to be against what he taught, compassion, love etc. Also I would think that his teaching reflect more on the value of life than death and thus the cross is not a good example.

IAF101 - this is the big problem that I have with the Roman Catholic Church as well. You are right, it makes no sense - there are plenty of different types of crosses as well (i.e. the Celtic Cross, the Tau Cross & so on).

I have come to the conclusion that Roman Catholicism is mearly a Corruption or highy Paganized Parody of an Older, more Original & Authentic form of Christianity. Jesus did not claim to BE God - yet Roman Catholics Worship him as God. Jesus was a Messenger which showed us the *PATH to God* - yet instead of following his teachings plenty think that it is OK to mearly - how did you put it - worship two planks of wood!

[edit on 28-4-2006 by Seraphim_Serpente]

My thoughts exactly!
The Roman order is meant to be the Church that Peter set up to follow Christs teaching but apparently 2000 years have all but corroded the very fundamentals of the christian faith.

BTW thats an interesting Avatar, care to explain what it means ?

Originally posted by GREGNOW
SUNMATRIX,
Sorry, i have been busy ans just getting here again.
anyway, I pointed some things out to you and you really did not come up with any kind of valid answers to what i said.
Soooo...

Hey Gregnow,

I'll get to your question tomorrow.

The Truth is a treaser each individual is responsible for seeking on their own with God.

FACT is the bible as we know it was a collection or "canon" of books that was officially put together in 300 AD by Constantine with the concil of Nicea.


Now, there were also books not included in the bible by the concil and today we refer to them as the "Gnostic books".


The Roman church is FULL of controversy and murder, the inquistion, and the list goes on.

Gregnow,

Your statement on the Bible and the council of Nicea that you call FACT, is in fact incorrect. The council of Nicea had nothing to do with the Bible. I suggest you might research the Council of Nicea.

The books of the Bible likely were chosen as early as 100 A.D. They were officially chosen at the Council of Laodicea in 363 A.D. The Pope was not in attendance as the Catholic Church did not choose the books. The Catholics have their own Bible that includes Gnostic books.


Yes, the Roman Church is full of all the things you mentioned. I was raised in this church. They are considered a Christian church by the world. And yet are they? Roman Emp. Constantine backed the Bishops of Rome and formed the Catholic Church. Constantine was a high priest in the worship of the sun god. What better way for the Roman Empire to stop the message of the Messiah, than to try and take over the church. Find out who is behind the worship of the sun and you find who really tried to take over the Christian church.
The Chistian message is salvation by faith. The Catholic message is salvation by works, same as Islam. The Vatican has yet to recognize Israel as a nation. Islam desires to wipe Israel from the face of the earth. Both have attacked the Jews, Gods Chosen people. Why is that?


Try this. Trace the customs of the Catholic church to paganism. Trace their origin. Now trace the origin of the Gnostics. If you do your homework and find the facts, you will find the same point of origin.

To conclude, the books of the Bible were not chosen by the Catholic church.

By the way Roman Joseph as you called him is really Jewish Joseph who was awarded Roman citizenship and given the name Titus Flavius Josephus.

[edit on 29-4-2006 by Sun Matrix]

Wow - SunMatrix has made a valid point - although the Gnostic books are NOT contained in the Vulgate (also know as the Latin Bible). As a matter of fact the RCC actively pursued & killed Gnostics when they found them (although that was probably a matter of Monopoly Politics more then anything else - who was it that set the Library @ Alexandria on Fire again?). They were not too fond of Jews or Moslems either - GregNow is correct in that regard.

IAF101 - getting back to our other discussion - I mean I know what they are trying to get at - that because of Jesus' Fate that Believers are now "Forgiven their Sins". My problem is that I don't personally believe this - rather I believe in the Law of Karma.

I believe that it is not Jesus' Birth and Death (also Resurrection?) that is important - I Believe that it was Jesus Christ's Teachings & Actions that are important. The example that he set for us in his life. He shows us the Grace, Love, Mercy & Compassion that was so missing from Middle Eastern Culture\Religion up until the point of his arrival. The things that are STILL missing in so called "Modern Western Culture". I do in fact Believe that Jesus was the Messiah & that if people are going to call themselves "Christians" that they should try their best to EMULATE Christ in your own daily life instead of just trying to fit in & go along with the crowd! Just my opinion!

[edit on 29-4-2006 by Seraphim_Serpente]

I just want to clarify a statement made earlier. I just wanted to say that their is a BIG difference between saying: "I AM GOD" vs. "I am as ONE with God" & that we ALL can be through Faith & Righteous Action. There were MANY nuances in Jesus' teachings that the Sanhedren did not catch or Comprehend - like that the Law was ALIVE not merely written in stone or that our Being is itself the "Holy Temple" of God - which is why they Ultimately found Jesus Guilty of Heresy/Blasphemy. The whole "King" of the Jews thing did not go down too well with the Romans either.

I also want to note something else - what Jesus taught about: "Do unto others as you would have done unto yourself" & "Love your Neighbor as yourself" - it seems pretty astonishing, but I think that Jesus was indeed trying to teach the concept of Karma - in his own way, so that the Semitic people (or the Culture of that time) would Understand.


[edit on 30-4-2006 by Seraphim_Serpente]

Gregnow,

By reading your post, I think I gather that you have read the book the Da Vinci Codes. You said that the Catholic Church picked out the books of the Bible at the Council of Nicea, same as the book says.

Five minutes of research should prove that this is an outright lie. The book and movie is full of lies. They jump out and expose the wrongs of the Catholic church, and say look what we can prove. Then they feed you thier lie. The object of the movie is to blind you from the truth. Jesus is the Messiah.




Seraphim_Serpente

You should have said, "Wow - SunMatrix has made a valid point - AGAIN"

You are correct in stating that Gnostic books are NOT contained in the Latin Bible. I probably should have said "Gnostic tendencies", however I see you picked up on this point correctly: (although that was probably a matter of Monopoly Politics more then anything else

Also Gregnow didn't say anything about the Muslims BTW. I was just pointing out the very thing you pointed out with the Catholics and Gnostics. The Catholics hunted down the Gnostics, and the Catholics hunted down the Muslims, but are they really enemies or do they appear that way.

sunmatrix,
i found out that the catholic church decided what books would be in the bible, and i have never read the da vinci code

but what is the PROOF that jesus was the messiah (according to judaic tradition is the assumption, right?) and how can you back it up?

Sun Matrix - don't forget that they went after JEWS as well during the Inquisition! What a bunch of Control Freaks - thats the RCC for ya!

P.S. Also the Vatican was Silent during Nazi Germany's Holocaust of the Jews in WWII!


[edit on 1-5-2006 by Seraphim_Serpente]

i found out that the catholic church decided what books would be in the bible, and i have never read the da vinci code

Madness........The Catholic church did not decide what books were in the Bible. Reread my post.



I will answer your other question later.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
The Bible is a book of factual truth. It has stood against all attempts to disprove it.

Then Atheism is fact, too.

For it has stood against all attempts to disprove it.

In fact, if your statement is true, then all religions and belief systems in the world are facts, because they have stood against all attempts to disprove them.

SUN MATRIX, now that you're participating in this thread again, perhaps you can address the above statements.

Thank you.

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
Sun Matrix - don't forget that they went after JEWS as well during the Inquisition! What a bunch of Control Freaks - thats the RCC for ya!

P.S. Also the Vatican was Silent during Nazi Germany's Holocaust of the Jews in WWII!


[edit on 1-5-2006 by Seraphim_Serpente]

Yes, and you can trace thier origin to the same place. They attack each, and then go after the Jews, Gods chosen people.

but what is the PROOF that jesus was the messiah (according to judaic tradition is the assumption, right?) and how can you back it up?

Many proofs exist. Here is one of them. The Jewish prophets predicted that the gate of Lord would be open unto righteousness. The Lord is the provider of salvation. The Jews rejected the chief cornerstone. So it was prophesied, and so it is, Jesus the provider of salvation by His righteousness, was rejected by His own.

Psalms 118:19 Open to me the gates of righteousness: I will go into them, and I will praise the LORD: 20 This gate of the LORD, into which the righteous shall enter. 21 I will praise thee: for thou hast heard me, and art become my salvation. 22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner

Benevolent Heretic,

Great avatar, awesome color.

As to my comment: "The Bible is a book of factual truth. It has stood against all attempts to disprove it.", I will respond to your comment.

Then Atheism is fact, too.

For it has stood against all attempts to disprove it. In fact, if your statement is true, then all religions and belief systems in the world are facts, because they have stood against all attempts to disprove them.

If you want to disprove Atheism, no problem. Read the New Testament and do what it says. Be born again, become a child of the living God. You will have no problem disproving Atheism. The catch is, you can find there is a God, if you seek, you just can't find Him for someone else. If you want to find Him, just seek Him, and you will have your proof. That's just the way it works, each man has to seek the truth for himself.

As for you comment on religion, religion can be traced to the same origin, Babylon. Catholism full of paganism and follows the worship of Baal, the sun god. The followeres of Catholism are taught salvation through works, not salvation thru faith in the Messiah. Muslims whose god Allah is the moon god, are also taught salvation thru works. Hinduism, Buddism, Mormonism etc. follows the same false god, Baal, the sun god and teaches salvation thru works.

So religion is easily disproved. What can't be disproved is the truth of Jesus the Messiah, the Son of the living God.

Can you prove Aliens don't have sex with sheep who then explode? SO it must be true!!!

Christians, so easy to make fun of it almost makes it no fun to make fun of them. At least with cripples you have to try to make it funny and not disturbing, but Christians? To easy...

Originally posted by StarkMan
Can you prove Aliens don't have sex with sheep who then explode? SO it must be true!!!

Christians, so easy to make fun of it almost makes it no fun to make fun of them. At least with cripples you have to try to make it funny and not disturbing, but Christians? To easy...

Hey Starkman

I kind of chuckle when the blind man tells me how easy it is. What if you could see? What if you had even an inkling of a whim of what is going on in the world? You stand clueless and want to laugh and make fun. You make me chuckle.