The Fact is, Jesus is the prophesied Messiah

If you have studied the origins and formation of Christianity then this is quite clear. Jesus was only declared divine after the council of Nicea. His divinity was voted on. Voted on!! If he was truely G-d incarnate I would think there would be no doubt to his divinity but the vote only won by a small margin. Then they proceded to add in some pagan holidays in diguise (ie: easter, Christmas..) just so they could convert the pagans and they would not have to give up thier pagan ceremonies.

Well, Christianity originated when the Prophesised Messiah rose from the dead. If you were eductated on the lie that blinds the world from Babylon, then you would understand who was in control at the council of Nicea.

Originally posted by Prot0n
Ok ... Atleast we agree for once. Sort of. What I don't understand is, what sources are you using to proclaim Jesus is the messiah? It can't be biblical as those sources tell the same story as the life of Horus and the others. I've not once seen nor heard of anything else outside the bible about Jesus. You can't find anything written durring his life and everything written 30 years after his supposed death is nothing more then a recap of Horus and Co.

So where are you personally getting that Jesus was the messiah if you agree that the sources teach the same as Horus and Co. ???

Prot0n,

You can't find the truth until you seek the truth.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
Prot0n,

You can't find the truth until you seek the truth.

Right ok, but this doesn't answer the question. What sources of information are you using that would still lead you to believe Jesus is the messiah if you are in agreement with me that the story in the bible is the same story for horus and other jesus figure's that predate the biblical jesus. There must be something else beside's the bible that your looking at that what .. the rest of the world just doesn't know exist's or have access to and you just happen to be the only one?

I'm sorry, I guess I just looked past your question because I know that the Bible is the Word of God. I have spent my time searching for truth and proving the Bible. You are spending your time proving the lie.

It's like talking to someone and them telling me that the U.S. did not land on the moon. I have already spent my time proving that they did. You are spending your time trying to prove why they didn't. How can you find the truth that way. You look at things like, well it's possible to hire actors and fake the moon landing. There was once an actor that said that this happened. I have already proved that man landed on the moon, so I know that the man is telling a lie.

Then you come to me and say something like, look, there has been this same story out long before they claim that man landed on the moon. See look, check out the story of the cow jumping over the moon, it's the same story. Why not prove that the cow jumping over the moon story is a lie designed to keep you from seeing the truth that man landed on the moon. (Just using as an example, don't get side tracked).

What I'm telling you is trace the story of Horus to it's source, Babylon. Now find how the story originated and you will find the deceiver.

Then spend some time seeking the truth. If you will seek the truth, you will find it.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix

If you have studied the origins and formation of Christianity then this is quite clear. Jesus was only declared divine after the council of Nicea. His divinity was voted on. Voted on!! If he was truely G-d incarnate I would think there would be no doubt to his divinity but the vote only won by a small margin. Then they proceded to add in some pagan holidays in diguise (ie: easter, Christmas..) just so they could convert the pagans and they would not have to give up thier pagan ceremonies.

Well, Christianity originated when the Prophesised Messiah rose from the dead. If you were eductated on the lie that blinds the world from Babylon, then you would understand who was in control at the council of Nicea.

First I have already shown you in my previous post (which you had no answer for) that he is NOT the prophesied messiah. Second, besides the notoriously unrealiable NT what is your proof that he rose from the dead? A hand full of eyewitness accounts written down hundreds of years after they happened are hardley proof. Third, I used to be a christian, I used to believe all the things you do until I learned the truth about the origins of chistianity and who the messiah is really supposed to be and do. Jesus doesnt fit the criteria, not by a long shot. The Jewish people have been looking for the arrival of the messiah for centuries. If he had come they would be the ones to recognize him, not someone who is not even familiar with Jewish prophesy, custom, or beliefs 2000 years later.

Originally posted by Prot0n

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
Prot0n,

You can't find the truth until you seek the truth.

Right ok, but this doesn't answer the question. What sources of information are you using that would still lead you to believe Jesus is the messiah if you are in agreement with me that the story in the bible is the same story for horus and other jesus figure's that predate the biblical jesus. There must be something else beside's the bible that your looking at that what .. the rest of the world just doesn't know exist's or have access to and you just happen to be the only one?

Prot0n,
What he is actully saying here is that he doesnt know the answer to your question.
So he decided to write some random, ambiguous, criptic line to try to confuse you and make you forget that he has no proof of anything. This is a typical tactic of christian missionaries. They want you to seek Jesus with your heart and forget your brain. To them it doesnt have to make sense as long as it feels right.

Sun Matrix,
You are the one who has been blinded my dear. There are countless similarities between the story of Jesus and pagan god stories from well before Jesus ever lived. Horace is only one example of many. Virgin birth, rising from the dead after 3 days, gods in human form, gods impreganting a human, a 3 part god, all of these come from paganism. And what do you know? They are all part of the proofs christians present to justify thier worship of a pagan deity.

Sun Matrix,

You say that the SYmbol fo the SUN from BABYLON, HOrus ISIS etc all originated in Babylon and say that these are the symbols of satan. THen How is it that the ancient MAyans, Aztecs and also the native aborigines in Australia all worshipped the sun. You claim that the lie originated in Babylon, how do you explain that is was prevelent in these lands as well?
If you take the example of the Mayans, the performed extensive sun worship and were one of the most advanced civilizations of that time. Also their calander is based on solar activity and so are their rituals. The Aztecs also followed this kind of thinking to some extent but saw their kings as gods too.

Tell me then, how do you suppose that the lie from Babylon was able to cross Europe and the Atlantic when this feat was not possible by humans until about the late 17th century ? How was this lie propagated to a place like Australia which has been isolated from the rest of humanity for close to 5 millenia ? Also if it was possible for these super Babylonians to take their lie to the far reaches of the planet how come they didnt spead their lie to all along the way ? And why were they not able to stand up to the pagan armies of the Macedonians if they could spread their lie so far and wide?
Why is it not possible for us to assume that these cultures all started worshipping the sun independently without outside influence ? Why should we consider those who worship to the sun to be in the service of the devil when it was the lord that created the sun, the moon and the stars and also lucifer ? Why is worshiping the sun any different than worshiping the lord, for isnt there a part of the lord in all his creations ?
And why should we condemn those who do indeed serve lucifer, for is it not the lord who created lucifer to serve his purpose also, and in serving lucifer do they not also serve the lord indirectly ?
You may call this pantheism but faith can be interpreted in many ways and in many forms .

Psalms 139:1-4, 7-10
O LORD, you have searched me and you know me.
You know when I sit and when I rise; you perceive my thoughts from afar.
You discern my going out and my lying down; you are familiar with all my ways.
Before a word is on my tongue you know it completely, O LORD.

Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence?
If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths, you are there.
If I rise on the wings of the dawn, if I settle on the far side of the sea,
even there your hand will guide me, your right hand will hold me fast

[edit on 14-5-2006 by IAF101]

kokoro.

I don't have time to answer everyone that hits me with a question. It's not that I can't answer, I just don't have time to answer everyone. ALSO, I don't do lists as I don't have time. When possible ask one question. If I don't answer, just ask again. I will answer a question or two from your list.

1. Nowhere in the Torah is it stated that the messiah will be born of a virgin.

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Seed of the woman = virgin birth.

Nowhere in the Torah is it stated that the messiah will be anything but a great leader.

Read Psalm 22 for starters.

Now, shoot straight with me. Where are you getting your ideas from? Da Vinci Code? David Icke? Gnostics? How were you blinded. Someone gave you truth, truth, truth and then hit you with the lie. Can you identify the source of how you were enlighteded? Or should I say blinded?

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
kokoro.

I don't have time to answer everyone that hits me with a question. It's not that I can't answer, I just don't have time to answer everyone. ALSO, I don't do lists as I don't have time. When possible ask one question. If I don't answer, just ask again. I will answer a question or two from your list.

1. Nowhere in the Torah is it stated that the messiah will be born of a virgin.

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Seed of the woman = virgin birth.

Once again your translation is incorrect for this passage. The pronouns used in
the hebrew are hu and atah. You have translated them to mean he and you singular and if you do it that way then you are tying to say that the passage is referring to a particular individual descendant of Eve. However, these same pronouns are also translated in the plural throughout the Torah. They translate into they and you (plural). Also the noun "zera" (from the original hebrew text) meaning offspring is plural in this verse. This verse is talking about mankind as a whole (all of her future offspring) and not the messiah. To make this HUGE leap to say that this is talking about Jesus is to say that the hebrew people have mistranslated thier own language for thousands of years and you now have the correct translation and understanding. How arrogant!!
If you are using the kjv of the bible I see where you are going wrong. It is notorious for its mistranslations. You need a text that has been traslated directly form the hebrew.

Nowhere in the Torah is it stated that the messiah will be anything but a great leader.

Read Psalm 22 for starters.

Now, shoot straight with me. Where are you getting your ideas from? Da Vinci Code? David Icke? Gnostics? How were you blinded. Someone gave you truth, truth, truth and then hit you with the lie. Can you identify the source of how you were enlighteded? Or should I say blinded?

Well I just read the entire thing and I see nothing here refering to the messiah. It is a psalm written by King David describing his pain when he was a fugitve. You will have to give me specific verses if you would like to discuss psalms 22 as it is pretty long.


David Icke?? LOLOLOL Hes about as nutty as a fruitcake!! I wouldnt count on his opinion if my life depended on it. I only read one of his threads and he lost me at the reptile bit LOL Anyway..

I get my info straight from Judaic sources. I have quite a vast book collection and I have studied Torah for many years now. I am always surprized that christians dont sudy the Torah in more depth because after all that is where your religion originally started and where the prophesies came from. I am not in anyway blinded, I simply went back to the source of it all.

kokoro:
Sun Matrix is well aware of the many interpretations s/he is making which lead to the conclusions which best suit his/her opinion. Many of us have brought this point to his/her attention. S/He doesn't understand the concept of facts or interpretations, thus whenever you notice the use of the word fact in his/her posts, s/he actually means opinion and when you notice an "=" sign it means "I interpret it to be." Also whenever s/he mentions reading exactly as it is written, s/he means making my own assumption. Try re-reading his/her posts with these substitutions and you'll see it makes perfect sense. Hope this helps.

Originally posted by mytym
kokoro:
Sun Matrix is well aware of the many interpretations s/he is making which lead to the conclusions which best suit his/her opinion. Many of us have brought this point to his/her attention. S/He doesn't understand the concept of facts or interpretations, thus whenever you notice the use of the word fact in his/her posts, s/he actually means opinion and when you notice an "=" sign it means "I interpret it to be." Also whenever s/he mentions reading exactly as it is written, s/he means making my own assumption. Try re-reading his/her posts with these substitutions and you'll see it makes perfect sense. Hope this helps.

LOL

Kokoro when reading mytyms posts be sure and understand that there is no such thing as absolute truth or fact. I depends on whether he feels that it is his truth. It's a grab bag. That should help.

OMG! You are the one who named this thread "The fact is Jesus is the messiah" !! You asked for proof that it is not so, now you say that there is no such thing as absolute truth? That is a total cop out. Basically, you are saying that it doesnt matter if I prove to you beyond any shadow of a doubt that it is not so because you will believe what you feel is right. Just shoot me now please...

[edit on 15-5-2006 by kokoro]

many references made to Jesus Christ being the promised Messiah..........

In the Old Testament books, several hundred prophecies about the Messiah and His blessed Kingdom can be found.
They are scattered throughout almost all the books of the Old Testament, beginning with the Five Books of Moses and ending with the last prophets Zachariah and Malachi.
The Prophet Moses, King David, the Prophets Isaiah, Daniel and Zachariah wrote the most about the Messiah.

The central theme of the Old Testament Holy Books is the coming of the Messiah and the establishment of the Kingdom of God among people. Old Testament prophecies about the Messiah, the Savior of the World, with the aim of discussing their contents and to show how they were fulfilled in the Lord Jesus Christ and in the New Testament Church.

MUCH TO READ

* Introduction
* Survey of the Messianic Prophecies
* The Prophecies in the Books of Moses
* The Prophecies of King David
* The Prophecies of Isaiah
* The Suffering Messiah
* The Resurrection of the Messiah
* The Prophecies of Daniel
* Prophesies of the “Lesser” Prophets
* Awaiting the Coming of the Messiah
* The Fulfillment of the Old Testament Prophecies
* Distorted Notions About the Messiah
* In the Appendix
o Prophecies regarding the Church and New Testament Times
o Two Paschas (Easters)
o The Forthcoming Conversion of the Jewish people to Christ
* The Index of the Messianic Prophecies
o a) by content
o b) by author in chronological order

Published with the kind permission of Bishop Alexander Mileant

helen

Originally posted by kokoro
OMG! You are the one who named this thread "The fact is Jesus is the messiah" !! You asked for proof that it is not so, now you say that there is no such thing as absolute truth? That is a total cop out. Basically, you are saying that it doesnt matter if I prove to you beyond any shadow of a doubt that it is not so because you will believe what you feel is right.

Just shoot me now please...

[edit on 15-5-2006 by kokoro]

No, you are misreading. It is Mytym that does not believe in absolute truth.

He has adjustable truth. Something can be true for him if he wants it to be. It's an option. He gets to choose whether it is truth.

For me, I accept the provable facts. The truth.

Sun Matrix:
In fact it is you that is misreading. I said there is very little, if anything, that can be said to be true in absolution beyond debate, not that I don't believe in it.

You don't even have the decency to address the points kokoro raises, instead you choose to raise an unrelated thread in a vain attempt to draw attention away from your inability to understand the concept of facts.

Kokoro:
I apologise that Sun Matrix feels s/he is addressing your points by making a poor attempt to illustrate my thinking in regards to truth. Just to clear things up for you, when s/he says s/he accepts provable facts, bear in mind that s/he means s/he accepts provable opinions. As we all know it is very difficult to prove an opinion, that's why it seems s/he never accepts any of the facts you provide. Substitution is vital when ready his/her posts.

If by chance you or anyone else is interested in my thoughts on truth, feel free to peruse the following thread:

www.abovetopsecret.com...'

All the best with the substitution process!

[edit on 16/5/06 by mytym]

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
For me, I accept the provable facts. The truth.

Like you did when you ran a mile when I asked you to prove there was a world wide flood five thousand years ago despite all facts to the contrary? You DO NOT accept facts.. you ignore them at all costs if they conflict with your own 'truth' [which would be most of them]. Can't have it both ways.

[edit on 16-5-2006 by riley]

Originally posted by riley

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
For me, I accept the provable facts. The truth.

Like you did when you ran a mile when I asked you to prove there was a world wide flood five thousand years ago despite all facts to the contrary? You DO NOT accept facts.. you ignore them at all costs if they conflict with your own 'truth' [which would be most of them]. Can't have it both ways.

[edit on 16-5-2006 by riley]

What provable facts are you referring to? I missed them

Mytym,

I believe if you look back, you will see it is again you who started with personal attacks.

Your crutch is gone, that's why.

I did start with the attacks, that's correct, but they are not personal, they are solely based on your relentless pushing of your opinion and disguising it is fact, which is abundant in the writings you post. As long as you persist with this, I will continue the attack, for I try to uphold the principles ATS stands for in regards to lifting the veil on deception and allowing one to see beyond it.

You'll notice that I rarely if ever attack any of the views you or anyone else present as we are all entitled to our own opinions, I merely contest the method in which you choose to express those views. If you read back over my posts, I'm sure you will realise this.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
What provable facts are you referring to? I missed them

The ones you run a mile from when they conflict with your beliefs. Geology, archeology.. geneology. COMMON SENSE. Humanity was not almost extinct 5000 years ago.. thats akin to believing in Santa. A quick search would present you with all the facts you need.. but of course you won't do that because you do not want facts.. you want validation.

When was Noah's flood?