The Fact is, Jesus is the prophesied Messiah

OK fine, we agree. I mean, disagree, whatever.

I have no interest in believing in the Devil or God. Any more than I do the Easter Bunny or Santa Clause. There is no proof of them either.

Well then why did you come into this post and read? Just curious. I know it's your freedom and right, but if you have no interest, then why the interest??

I'm not looking for something else to believe. I have a very strong belief system, which I never try to sell or push on other people. I don't need to adopt someone else's.

I'm not trying to push my belief on anyone either. But I do love to share what I believe with others. That is why I wrote in this thread, because I too share in the belief. I don't like to talk about sports, but because I like a particular person who does, I will listen without thinking how pushy they are as that would be selfish if I behaved that way.

I'm not saying that y'all shouldn't believe in them. Have at it. My point here is that stating something as fact does not make it fact. I realize you guys believe it, but if you want others like myself to believe it (and I don't even want to) then you'll have to present proof.

With all sincerity, what "type" of proof do you want?

Originally posted by OneGodJesus
In closing, I think that saying that an experience is not necessary is folly. It is my opinion, that if you have foundation with which to speak on a subject from personal experience you no credibility to speak. You are basing your opinion of others experiences or their ill informed opinions.

Agreed, to a certain extent. The point I was trying to get across is that knowing God does not come from any experience and therefore cannot be taught with opinion(s). Obviously as seen in this thread and any others where He is debunked, people WANT proof. What I'm trying to say is there is none, and if there is, it is not enough, get past that and seek Him (not to you this is to anyone who is asking for proof)

My proof is my existance, the fact that I have the capacity to love, my proof is my shere desire to seek His face and to know Him. My proof is my inner force that drives me to learn Him and be with Him and to know His Word He left for all of us so that we could know Him. My proof is my overwhelming desire to talk about Him to everyone. My proof is getting out of some of the life or death situations I've been in and my proof is the peace I find in a world where there is barely any left. I could go on and on.
But not mine or anyone elses life experiences are going to provide proof into the heart and soul of someone who wants something in particular as proof enough for for them to believe when they have already hardened their very being to knowing God.

Originally posted by magestica
Well then why did you come into this post and read?

I have always enjoyed discussing religion, theology and spirituality. I have always read this forum. I have a strong spirituality, myself. I was raised in a very religious household and I am curious and interested about religion, beliefs and so on.

I enjoy debate and religion and politics are 2 of my favorite subjects.

The reason I posted today is that I saw your post (about opinion and experience vs fact) and strongly disagreed with it and I just wanted to say that. I wanted to express my view, too.

With all sincerity, what "type" of proof do you want?

I really don't want proof. I'm not asking for proof. There is no proof. Like I said, I'm not looking for anything. I'm just SAYING that the way this thread is presented... Jesus-Messiah-FACT... is really a matter of opinion, not fact at all. If it were fact, there would be irrefutable proof. That was the only point of my post.

And to me, the whole point of faith is belief without proof. Fact does not enter into it. I thought I had something important to say and so I said it.

And come on.. it would be pretty boring in here if people didn't disagree now and then, wouldn't it? I think it's a fascinating discussion, but there are several sides to it.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
And to me, the whole point of faith is belief without proof. Fact does not enter into it.

From a Christian perspective, this is kind of true. John 20:29 quotes Jesus saying,

Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed."

It would be better that you believe based on faith alone, but I know in my case, I could not. I was a doubting Thomas. I needed that proof before I would accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. If you read the passage before the one I quoted, Christ did not chastise Thomas for his doubt. He proved himself to Thomas. Jesus provided the evidence that pointed to Him for the disciple who couldn't believe without such proof.

In John 17:12, Christ says,

While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled

God wants all of us to have a personal relationship with Him, as He is. He wants us to love Him, but not a shadow of Him or a creation that we develop in our minds. If you have a friend you like a lot, but the things you like about them aren't really there (happens all the time in crushes), is it really the person you have the relationship with, or is it the creation in your mind you have the relationship with? God wants us to have a relationship with Him, not a creation we make. Because of this, He has provided proof for all of us doubting Thomases out there! I'll be going into more detail of some of the specific proofs God has provided us in this beautiful broken world, but know that there is proof. He Word has told us that He will provide the proof, too, if we only seek with a softened heart.

I used to know everything there was to know about the universe. It wasn't until I realized I did not that I started to learn about the universe. Anyone who doubts, ask God, even if you don't believe He's there, to soften your hearts. It could be as simple as saying, “If you’re out there, reveal yourself to me”. Then get ready for the most exciting trip of your life!

Originally posted by junglejake
I used to know everything there was to know about the universe. It wasn't until I realized I did not that I started to learn about the universe.

Hi Jake!

Boy! Isn't that the truth! We only begin to learn when we realize how little we actually know.

Another thing that I wanted to mention is regarding proof. One man's proof is another man's dreamland. What Jake takes as absolute, irrefutable proof, I may think is meaningless. I realize that we only believe in the proof that we choose to believe in.

I am happy for people who feel so strongly about their beliefs. I am thrilled for Jake. I can see how important his relationship with God is to him - he practically glows with it - and I am very happy about that.

When my panties get bunched is when people tell me that their beliefs are the only valid ones and therefore my beliefs are invalid; When they tell me that I am wrong. Magestica, you asked my why I posted here and that's why. By people claiming their beliefs as "facts" that apply to everyone, and that there is no room for opinion or personal experience... That's when I feel a need to defend my beliefs. That's when I feel the desire to step in and say, Hey, you don't set the belief standards for everyone.

You have voted magestica for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

Good reply and accurate. I like your approach and ability to not get confrontational when debating issues like this. Again I say good on you.

Answer: Jesus ancestry actually came from His mother not His father. She was of the tribe of Judah and the lineage of David (Psalm 132:11; Luke 1:32). She was connected by marriage with Elisabeth, who was of the lineage of Aaron (Luke 1:36). So there you have it.

Strange, why would Luke do that? Back then lineage was not derived through the mother, but by the father alone. Here's a good explanation as to why we see Joseph with two lineage's.

www.bahaullah.net...

Where does it say that? I must have missed something. I will reread the scriptures, I might have missed that one.

Odd, I've alway's assumed religous people knew the word of their God. Guess I gotta stop assuming huh? It's in Isaiah, happy hunting.

He did. As God and man.

Really? Wierd ...

9 "And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one."

They must have forgoten to add in that god would be two not one. Silly ancient people didn't know how to count back then I guess.

Answer: actually it says: Deuteronomy 13

Sorry, that part is in the Torah. Anyone who change's God's word is considered a false prophet.

That is wrong. It clearly states the contracry of what you said.

Really? Huh... must have missed that part, mind pointing it out? Isaiah also says this.

24:5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.
24:6 Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, ...

Let's take a look at a few verses from the NT!

Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree

Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not [in] the oldness of the letter

Bunch more verses similar to those. Almost sounds as if Isaiah was warning against christianity!

And I qoute"2 Peter 3:4: They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation."

Ok, sure... Quote a christian invention. Show me the second coming in the OT, in the messiah prophecies. Not something from the christian invented NT.

"I and the Father are one" (John 10:30).

Really? Our lord is ONE lord. Not two, not three, not twenty-five. Only ONE lord. God is not a mortal.

19 "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?"

Answer: "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily" (Colossians 2:9). Isaiah prophesied that the Messiah would be called Immanuel, that is, God with us (Isaiah 7:14 Matthew 1:22-23). Isaiah 35:4-6 shows that Jesus is God: "Behold, your God… he will come and save you." This passage goes on to say that when God comes the eyes of the blind would be opened, the ears of the deaf would be unstopped, the lame would leap, and the tongue of the dumb would speak. Jesus applied this passage of Scripture to Himself (Luke 7:22) and, of course, His ministry did produce all of these things. And finally, "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:12).

Too bad they named Jesus ... Jesus, instead Immanuel.

saiah 35:4-6 shows that Jesus is God: "Behold, your God… he will come and save you."

No it doesn't lol. Jesus didn't save the Jews. They've been persecuted for the past 1900 years. I'd hardly call that saved. Nor does the verse state that the messiah will be god. The messiah is a DIRECT descendent of DAVID.

God also says in the bible that there will be false messiah's (basically), and warns against following them. To test you. His ministry did nothing. It was thanks to constantine that christianity even got the chance to rise to power, through LAW.

Jesus was the last manifestation of God in flesh of a visable form. He is also the only one who died as payment for sin. It is in His name that we are saved through baptism and infilling of His Spirit.

Where in the OT does it state that the messiah will be god? God is not a direct descendent of David. He's not a descendent of anyone. God is ONE, not two.

We agree that the trinity is polytheistic and not biblical. The other stuff is easily refuted. But I can only make so many post of this nature before they ban me altogether...lol.

Didn't look like you refuted them to me. But if I'm not mistaken, Jesus is the one who said something about the trinity, right? Why would GOD/Jesus need to start some pagan concept, or is the bible not the infallible word of God?

Sorry took so long. Overlooked the reply from you.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
When my panties get bunched is when people tell me that their beliefs are the only valid ones and therefore my beliefs are invalid; When they tell me that I am wrong. Magestica, you asked my why I posted here and that's why. By people claiming their beliefs as "facts" that apply to everyone, and that there is no room for opinion or personal experience...

I never ever stated you were wrong, if I did, please shed light, as I must certainly have some twinner posting under my screen name LOL! By me stating something is fact, is not me stating that you are wrong. I'm not about to defend my belief with any nah nah boo boo attitute.

That's when I feel a need to defend my beliefs. That's when I feel the desire to step in and say, Hey, you don't set the belief standards for everyone.

I've read a few comments from you regarding my beliefs and that's fine, I enjoy reading what you think and I don't read any animosity from you at all therefore I enjoy posting for you. But how can you say you need to defend your beliefs, without me knowing what your beliefs are?

And then to go further..are you saying it is alright for you to step in and defend your beliefs but it isn't alright for someone like me, a believer in the thread topic to do the same?? I'm not sure what you really mean by your above quote.

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that the summoning thing is dangerous. Or did I? Anyway the only name that will stop the whooping you get is (drum roll please) George...just kidding it is of course Jesus. The devils know there is one God, they also know where all the power comes from and they know that time is short.

On a side note (not to hijack this thread) I have noticed a lot of ATSers are really worried about an impending war or alien abduction or take over or some great catastrophy. I am wondering aloud if maybe we really are in the endtimes and that is why everything is going so crazy all of a sudden. Hmmm. Tangible proof you say. If the third temple were rebuilt would that be enough proof? Prolly not. What about a third of mankind dying suddenly or not suddenly but horribly none the less? Prolly not. What about if a huge archeological find was discovered, like say the ark of the cevenant or Noah's ark? Prolly not. What about folks getting chipped as a mandatory way of "securing your bank account" or some other nonsense? Prolly not. Just an observation. and as always with this kind of thinking outside the box it is just IMO. Maybe you really would come to see that the bible is right on the money and is several things are true then maybe all of it is true. I've read most of the aguments that the bible is not right or incomplete or inaccurate or whatever. The simple fact is just what was said previously, at some point you make a decision to either choose the way or not. It is like that RUSH song, "If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice". Either way you will be held accountable as life is a dressingroom for eternity. 80+ years on earth if your lucky, then eternity somewhere else. Religion seems pretty important in light of those numbers. If all I had was 80 years and I knew there was no eternal reward or punishment for my actions why would I care what others after me think about me. I'm dead and, presumably, into oblivion. Or maybe come back as a toad (what fun). I would not care about the rule of law, I would not care about fashion, I would not care about people. It would be pointless. I would only serve my own self interests. Why do anything else? It does not profit you. Pleasures would be my sole goal. If that happened to help someone else then I guess it was a twofer. I certainly wouldn't go out of my way to help anyone esle if I had no gain. They are going to die too. They should have been looking out for number one too.

On the other hand, if you think that there is some reward for loving someone else for the sake of loving them and you also reap some reware later in the afterlife then hey that is twofer of different sort. If you think that the punishment of killing your coworker because they smell really bad and cuss you out everyday has some sort of eternal punishment then you are much more unlikely to to that deed. We are generally creatues of rules. Cause and effect. I have heard it preached that the biggest word in the Bible is "IF". If you do this then He will do that etc. Btu IF you don't do this then He will do THAT. It is like a parent. I don't want to clean my room. Well Johnny, you get no dessert. Well I just punched that kid because he hit me first. Well, Johnny you are grounded. Does it change the idea your parents still love you? No. Does it make them any less real? No.

What I am talking about here is an experience with God. If you practice the life you WILL be rewarded. Some bit in this l;ife and a whole bunch in the next. I get really kind of worked up about only "Hellfire and brimstone" preaching all the time and no love examples of Jesus. I mean after all, who in their right mind would jump on a grenade for you? Someone who loves you more than you love yourself. For that matter why didn't you jump on it to save them? Because we are a selfish race of creatures. Simple. We want it our way and we want it right now. We want proof, we want evidence why our parent are right. We cannot accept the fact that someone else knows more than we do. We are locked into a struggle with our identities and who rules us.

I struggled a long time in the military. I think I may have ODD. Oppositional Defiance Disorder...lol. I am just kidding about that but I really did struggle for a long time until I realised that I really didn't know all that much and the people being the hardest on me just were looking out for me. Drinking up to three hours before going into work is not a good idea. Using women like throw away toys was bad too. Trying to see how fast a motorcycle can go in the rain was a bad idea too. The little things like that brought home the idea I was really just testing my boundaries and now I know what they are. I am not superman and I cannot fly (though I have tried with tragic results) as gravity works.

We are all creatures of doubt. I am too. I doubt at times that I will ever get to heaven and stay for more that the judgement. I am not in fear per se, just wondering if the Apostles were barely saved how much more so am I less than they? They healed with their shadow moving across people. I understand it wasn't them that did it, it was Jesus moving through them. I wonder if I could have people throw stones at me and not get mad even though I was dying and ask Jesus to not lay any sin upon them as Stephen did. Prolly not. I think I'd have been throwing rocks right back at them, or maybe a few heelhooks or arm bars. I just don't know if I have the right stuff to make heaven. But I can truely say that I am giving it a shot and telling people that, no I am not perfect and no I am not an apostle and yes I make mistakes and have doubt about myself at times. But the experience of being washed with His blood as payment for all the sin I have done and the acceptance of Him by taking control of my tongue as His spirit entered me, was exilerating and releasing of my pent up guilt. I tried the baptists, the protestants, the catholics, the buhdists, the satanists and a few others. None compairs with the Oneness Pentecostals though. It is like a light turning on.That is the experience.

In the end, we are after all, just mud with the breath of life in us. For 80 + years at least...

On a side note (not to hijack this thread) I have noticed a lot of ATSers are really worried about an impending war or alien abduction or take over or some great catastrophy. I am wondering aloud if maybe we really are in the endtimes and that is why everything is going so crazy all of a sudden.

it's been the end time's for the past 2000 years. It was even the end times according to jesus in the bible. Wonder why they haven't taken that part out yet.

Hi BH!

While I agree that some evidences I have would count for naught for you. Things like prophesy being fulfilled wouldn't mean much if you don't accept the Old Testament as true.

What I am going to present I believe can be held the same way. While it means a lot to me, someone who practices, say, Christian Science, may dismiss the evidences, as, from what I understand, Christian Science does not accept science. I believe it's going to be archaeological, literary, and psychological, but I could be wrong. I have to consult a few books at home which is why I haven't delved into it yet.

I'd also like to say something in BH's defense. There are many hardheaded people here on Above Top Secret; often times, I am one of them. Benevolent Heretic, in our debates (usually of a political nature) has shown herself to be humble enough to recognize when she is wrong, and correct that. It is a rare quality. Just because she disagrees or doesn't accept what you are telling her does not mean she has shut you out. She is one of the people here on this website who truly is out to deny her own ignorance.

Originally posted by Prot0n

On a side note (not to hijack this thread) I have noticed a lot of ATSers are really worried about an impending war or alien abduction or take over or some great catastrophy. I am wondering aloud if maybe we really are in the endtimes and that is why everything is going so crazy all of a sudden.

it's been the end time's for the past 2000 years. It was even the end times according to jesus in the bible. Wonder why they haven't taken that part out yet.

Funny stuff...

I guess because it hasn't happened yet.

Originally posted by magestica
But how can you say you need to defend your beliefs, without me knowing what your beliefs are?

These are real questions:

When you say, in essence, "This is a fact, having nothing to do with opinion or experience." You are at least implying that any opposing opinions, beliefs, ideas on this subject are NOT fact or truth. Aren't you?

I can almost guarantee that if I shared my beliefs with you, because they are drastically different than yours, you would say that I was mistaken, wrong, misinformed, unenlightened or something of the sort. Because I don't believe the same things that you do. Is that true?

When I say I'm defending my beliefs, I'm simply saying that your beliefs aren't the only valid ones. They're good for you, they work for you, but they don't apply to everyone. Do they?

I'm not telling you that my beliefs are fact, so you don't need to defend your beliefs. You've said what you believe and I have no problem with you believing that. I've said several times that I (in essence) don't care what you believe. But for you to say your beliefs are FACT, appears to me, anyway, that it applies to me as well, whether I agree or not.

This is an assumption on my part: You think your God somehow applies to me. That he's my God, too, I just don't know it - and that someday I might open my heart enough and learn the Truth... and that just feels really invasive of my beliefs. It tells me you have no respect for the idea that I can form my own belief system, even though it's different than yours. You apply your theology to me without my consent and that gets my hackles up.

Because I know my own beliefs are as true and precious to me as yours are to you. That's why I feel the need to defend my beliefs.

I have asked 3 questions above. Maybe if you answer them, I can understand where you're coming from a little better. Maybe I'll find out that I was wrong.

Originally posted by OneGodJesus
Funny stuff...

I guess because it hasn't happened yet.

Wonder why it hasn't happened yet ... He did say it would be within the lifetime of those listening. Perhaps there's just NO SUCH THING?

Originally posted by Sun Matrix

I think you will find your answer in the next verse.

Genesis 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

So why do the birds etc get a reprieve?

I believe Noah being 500 and having a son Japheth, being 501 and having a son Ham, and being 502 and having a son Shem, works out perfectly.

So what your saying is the bible is lying when it says that Noah was 500 with 3 kids?

The amount of space available on the Ark is insufficient for all the animals/foodstuffs (which by the way started with 7 of each then to 2 and then a mix of both -cant make up their mind).

This is just a statement. You need a mathematical calculation to back this up.

Well depending on the exact length of a cubit the Ark had about 1.5 million cubic feet (enough for 125000 sheep says one site) but forgot to take into consideration that the ark was on three levels and 1) -the amount of foodstuffs required to feed said animals for a year and living space for 8 Humans, 2)- Not all the 1.5 million cubic feet would have been utilised, you need space to move around.

The Ark itself is an impossibility (too large).

First it's too small and now it's too large. I have seen many different shows saying that the dimensions and shape of the ark were perfect for housing the animals and sea worthiness. I realize that a lot of that stuff on TV is bull, but these were experiments they were showing. Science.

Expert nautical engineers have found that a wooden boat cannot be built longer than about 360 ft and remain seaworthy. The rolling action of the waves cause pressure build up and the wood breaks. Wasn't the Ark about 440 ft?

The flood itself never happened to the degree that is stated, there is not enough water on the Earth to cover the mountains

How high were the mountains before the flood? How deep were the seas? I'm sure the surface of the earth changed drastically from the weight of the water.

Doesn't the bible mention high mountains? Although in Gen 7.20 it mentions 15 cubits( about 25-30 ft) and the mountains were covered. Are you saying there was nothing taller than 30 odd feet?

and the "vapour canopy" would raise the Earths temperature to unlivable levels.

Is is usually hotter on a cloudy day or a sunny day?

Not important as the temperature required to keep the vapour canopy as a vapour would exceed 400 Deg and the pressure build up would be over 60 x greater than today, not many animals could live in such conditions

So why should we take the Noah story as truth?,

Well, because we want to be right, I can find no reason to disbelieve the story, but plenty of reasons to believe it is true.

in fact why should we take the bible as truth?

Put it to the test. It can't be disproved, and yet, it can be proved.

Well there you go, some reasons to disbelieve the story. And YES I will agree that some of the bible can be proven but it still cant prove the existance of god/jesus/moses/abraham etc etc. And that is the problem!


G

Originally posted by Prot0n
Wonder why it hasn't happened yet ... He did say it would be within the lifetime of those listening. Perhaps there's just NO SUCH THING?

I have always wondered about that. There is a folklore saying that goes something like "there will be one amongst them that will not die until he sees the rapture of the saints" or something like this. I wonder if maybe God made one of those present live like in the old days plus a whole bunch more? Just conjecture of course but I will look into this again and see what I come up with.

Originally posted by Prot0n

Originally posted by OneGodJesus
Funny stuff...

I guess because it hasn't happened yet.

Wonder why it hasn't happened yet ... He did say it would be within the lifetime of those listening. Perhaps there's just NO SUCH THING?

I think you are referring to this verse.

Mark 9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

The kingdom of God is within you.

Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

The kingdom of God is righteousness, peace and joy.

Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

As is says in Luke 17, the kingdom of God cometh not with observation.
Maybe you have just missed it?

[edit on 5-4-2006 by Sun Matrix]

Errrr? Sun is this directed at my statement? Not sure if it is or not, you quote me but it may be in answer to others questions. Hopefully the the "maybe you just missed it" part is in reference to the scripture, right? I certainly didn't miss the infilling of the Holy Ghost part, got the tongues to prove it.

Mod Edit to remove quote of previous poster. It's not necessary to quote the previous poster. And if you do, please trim it down to the relevant text.

Mod Note: Please Trim Quotes – Please Review This Link.

[edit on 6-4-2006 by Benevolent Heretic]

No, he was talking to me. He just doesn't know how to quote properly. He also has a habit of taking verses out of context. You can see that in how he always bolds certain sections of certain verses as if to make the bolded parts one new verse. it's like a hobby of his.

Errrr? Sun is this directed at my statement?

No, Prot0n is partially correct.