The Fact is, Jesus is the prophesied Messiah

Produkt:
Item 1) The Messiah will be a descendent of David. Joseph was not Jesus' father, therefore, Jesus can not be a descendent of David. Mary lied and stupidly mistranslated alma to mean virgin. Ooops. Nothing says the Messiah will be born of adultry.

Answer: Jesus ancestry actually came from His mother not His father. She was of the tribe of Judah and the lineage of David (Psalm 132:11; Luke 1:32). She was connected by marriage with Elisabeth, who was of the lineage of Aaron (Luke 1:36). So there you have it.

Item: The Messiah was to bring all Jews back to Israel. Jesus did not do this. In fact, the religion that was created after his death has persecuted the Jews for the past 1900 years.

Where does it say that? I must have missed something. I will reread the scriptures, I might have missed that one.

Item: The Messiah was supposed to spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, he was not to proclaim to be king and one with God himself.

He did. As God and man.

Item: 6) Jesus contradicts the Torah, whereas the Messiah was to lead the Jews to full Torah observance. Deut. 13:1-4

Answer: actually it says: Deuteronomy 13

1If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,

2And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;

3Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

4Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.

Where in there does that say the Messiah was to lead the Jews to full Torah observance?

Item:
7) There is no suffering servent in the book of Isaiah.

That is wrong. It clearly states the contracry of what you said.

Item: 8) The second coming is a Christian invention.

And I qoute"2 Peter 3:4: They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation."

Item: 9) Jesus most idiotic remark, probably would have given himself more credibility if he had just kept his mouth shut in the first place.

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:" (Matthew 28:19)

"I and the Father are one" (John 10:30).

Why would Jesus say this and other time's claiming to be God when it's always been known that God was ONE.

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:" (Deut. 6:4)

Item:
10) Can only find god through Jesus? Since when?

Answer: "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily" (Colossians 2:9). Isaiah prophesied that the Messiah would be called Immanuel, that is, God with us (Isaiah 7:14 Matthew 1:22-23). Isaiah 35:4-6 shows that Jesus is God: "Behold, your God… he will come and save you." This passage goes on to say that when God comes the eyes of the blind would be opened, the ears of the deaf would be unstopped, the lame would leap, and the tongue of the dumb would speak. Jesus applied this passage of Scripture to Himself (Luke 7:22) and, of course, His ministry did produce all of these things. And finally, "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:12).

Where is the disconnect? If you understand , as the jews did, that God is a spirit you understand the statement. If you understand that a spirit can only be seen when inhabiting a body, since God is an invisible Spirit and is omnipresent, He certainly does not have a body as we know it. He did assume various forms and temporary manifestations throughout the Old Testament so that man could see Him. These were called theophanies. Jesus was the last manifestation of God in flesh of a visable form. He is also the only one who died as payment for sin. It is in His name that we are saved through baptism and infilling of His Spirit.

Item: Did Jesus just happen to forget that god is ONE and not some pagan trinity?

We agree that the trinity is polytheistic and not biblical. The other stuff is easily refuted. But I can only make so many post of this nature before they ban me altogether...lol.

[edit on 3/4/06 by OneGodJesus]

Originally posted by mytym
1) I'm sure I could disprove the Bible if I tried, I'm also sure that it can't be proven. Sure some elements of the Bible can be proven, perhaps many, but in order to prove the Bible is COMPLETELY factual, proving some elements will not suffice. In order to prove something COMPLETELY factual you must prove all of it, not some or 25% or 50 % or even 99.9999999%, but ALL 100% of what it says. However to prove a lie, only the smallest detail needs to be disproven. After all there are few falsehoods that do not contain some factual elements, are there not?

2) Regardless of this, the real question is whether your statements are opinions or facts, and I have already proven that they are opinions. You seem to be getting the gist of informing others that you are expressing your opinion in your last post, I'm proud of you. It's a hard habit to break, so keep at it, and remember to add "TO ME" and "IN MY OPINION" whenever you are tempted to disguise your opinions as facts.

1) The other books taught in Universities around the world are taught as fact and sucked up with much enthusiasm by students everywhere. The daily news papers are reagarded as fact, many there are that see them as truth. Why is it so inconceivable that bible is truth? More has been proven to be right about it that any other book in human history. Fact.

2) In my opinion you are attacking something with which you have very little experience. That is the prime difference Sun is talking about. He has the experience of a savior you do not. It is therefore hard for some to understand the grace given by one they are only too eager to attack but have little knowledge of. Fact, people are lazy. Fact people are unwilling to spend the time necessary and seek truth. Fact people are unwilling to give it the old college try and live the life for a bit and see if it makes a difference in their miserable lives. Fact people are all to willing dupes of the media and live only to drag others down to their level of depravity. Fact see previous entry. Fact if you'd only quit saying and start doing you'd be shown a whole new world instead of the total negativity that is present in this thread. Fact after fact will not change your mind unless you DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT TO PROVE IT WRONG BY TRYING IT to disprove it on a personal level. Fact there is no better teacher than experience.

Much of what you raise I agree with, see the link below:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

The argument I am making is that Sun Matrix is diguising his/her opinions as facts. Whether or not the Bible is true is a different discussion, I'm merely pointing out that it is his/her opinion that it is true, it is not proven to be true. He/She then has the nerve to require others to provide facts, when he/she provides none.

You seem to be disguising a few opinions as facts yourself. What makes you think I do not have the experience of a saviour? I believe in an earlier post I even admitted that whether or not Jesus is the Messiah is beside the point, because He is an excellent example of a human being and we would do well to follow in his footsteps. I'm happy for Sun Matrix to express his/her opinions, I just require him/her to remove the disguise.

You seem to be willing to attack me with little to no experience of what I'm all about. I strongly encourage you to take your own advice and do some research on me before continuing the attack.

According to biblical text's, when was Babylon built and by whom?

I'm not sure it says, what do the historical texts have to say?

This is just for a start Sun. Although I am STILL awaiting your answer on a simple math problem. Did you hit a dead end?

Dead end? Possibly, I keep answering and you keep asking the same question. I guess it's a dead end.

Originally posted by mytym
Much of what you raise I agree with, see the link below:

1) www.abovetopsecret.com...

2) The argument I am making is that Sun Matrix is diguising his/her opinions as facts. Whether or not the Bible is true is a different discussion, I'm merely pointing out that it is his/her opinion that it is true, it is not proven to be true. He/She then has the nerve to require others to provide facts, when he/she provides none.

3) You seem to be disguising a few opinions as facts yourself. What makes you think I do not have the experience of a saviour? I believe in an earlier post I even admitted that whether or not Jesus is the Messiah is beside the point, because He is an excellent example of a human being and we would do well to follow in his footsteps. I'm happy for Sun Matrix to express his/her opinions, I just require him/her to remove the disguise.

4) You seem to be willing to attack me with little to no experience of what I'm all about. I strongly encourage you to take your own advice and do some research on me before continuing the attack.

1) Good points raise and an interesting read.

2) Opinions are typically experience speaking. If they are not it is conjecture.

3) I amy or may not have been directed at you specifically. I was generalising the attitude of the attacks. In light of the tendered opinions regarding his experience. I do not make assumptions based upon empty conjecture but in the context of the attack. For instance if I were to say that the bible is the Word of God. Someone might say prove it. I'd point initially to the archeological finds that validate the bible. Then I'd point to the classroom that have educated the world and the lack of evidence that supports history books of literature but we take as factual. Students of this forum have been nurtured from those very textbooks and believe all of the contents of a vast majority, enough to formulate opinions that will in general be used as agruments against biblical concepts or teachings (not all but some). Next I would ask about a scientific study in psychology and the effects of its application in an experiment. If a person is unwilling to conduct a study of the various religions he has no personal experience and must go on conjecture and circumstantial evidence typically written by the same "scholars" who are creating books based upon conjecture but no personal experience. It is a dog chasing his tail. That is called spin in its highest fashion. Did our founding fathers of science rely upon the people who came before them to make assumptions? Sure, but they were first and foremost people who experimented for themselves and have an intimate encounter with the material and have made an honest attempt to validate of refute their findings. Many this forum, even this thread, have no practical experience with which they have made assumptions and accusations. They have no real first hand experience to base an opinion. That is my one true concern with attacks of this nature. If you can honestly say you have tried before you shoot out an opinion then you can have you moment in the sun and I give you recognition for it. After that if you truely have a concern with the dialog you may voice your experience and make accusations, until that time it is ill advised to attempt to refute something you have no practical experience with. IMO.

4) Point taken, I will get that experience by rereading your comments from previous posts, threads and dialog then make a judgement based upon your personal claims and standings. I have done this previously with others who have an attack attitude, not to say you qualify for that label. You may not be that sort of person, I make no assumptions of guilt or innocence until further study is conducted.

I'm not sure it says, what do the historical texts have to say?

It does say. Just gotta work out the math. I'm not interested in discussing what the historical text's say.. yet. When was Babylon built according to the bible.

OneGodJesus:
It is such a rarity in this type of thread, to come across one who can see things from an opposing perspective to their own. I sincerely commend you for that.

I do not, or at least make every effort, not take stoop to the level of making personal attacks on other posters. I choose to attack what is written in a specific thread, only. I have my own opinions which lead to the beliefs I have, just as Sun Matrix and yourself do. We are all entitled to them. However, I don't profess that my opinions are correct and others opinions are not simply because they are contrary to mine. Nor do I disguise them as facts, as Sun Matrix does. Had he/she changed this thread title to "My opinion is, Jesus is the prophesied Messiah" and had he/she stated "in my opinion" every time he/she expressed an opinion, you would not have heard from me.

What you raise about basing conjecture and circumstancial evidence on books written by scholars based on the same conjecture is absolutely correct. This is exactly what Sun Matrix is doing, using the Bible scriptures as proof of his/her so called factual evidence that the Bible is factual. The source must be independant of the subject that is to be proven, as I have raised previously.

I do not agree, that one must try before one shoots out an opinion, just that trying will aid the chances of the opinion being taken seriously. However, this is your opinion, and just because it differs from mine, it doesn't make it wrong, we are all entitled to them and I respect it as such.

I've read through as much as I can of this thread and what I see most are the words "opinion" and "experience", to me, these are words that should never be associated with Jesus. Learning about Jesus is a start, accepting the FACT of who He is, is another and neither of these comes from experience or opinion. Usually, experience and opinion can lead a person astray and that is what I 'personally' see happen when people begin speaking about Him.

I know it's a hard thing to do, but if "we" put all of our experiences aside and throw all of our opinions out the door (metaphorically speaking) it is then that we will come to the knowledge of the Lord, it is then that we can begin to "know" Him. Just try this for one day!

I know, I obviously have experiences in my life which have lead me to having opinions, I'm human too, so it isn't easy believe me (from experience) to let these go, not even for a day. But we are man and we cannot begin to understand God, the flood ,the math or any part of Him based on our "experiences" because God is not an experience. He is unfathomable and immeasurable- remember that.

I gave a close friend of mine an example of how "I" considered our Gods' works; I said think of me creating an ant farm, how huge and massive I am to these ants and how small they are to me. I create a "world" or nation for these little guys. Then I recreated the flood -I know it sounds silly-but my friend and I began to, ever so slightly, understand (in our human minds) the capacity and capabilities of God with just this little example.

There's no math required to make it fact by our human standards, because God is so vast that again, we cannot even comprehend what He is capable of doing. If we could figure Him out with our mentality, then there would never be any question of where we came from, why or where we are going.

We "can" however, experience what we call science and we're able to form an opinion about it as well. Why? Because science was created by man, therefore it's an easy "fall back" for those who cannot fathom the creation of God and works of God.

So..The fact is, Jesus IS the prophesied Messiah which can only be debunked by experience and opinion.
Mags

One who claims that "Jesus is the prophesied Messiah" is a fact carries the burden of proof. There is no proof that this is true, and is in fact, an opinion. Claiming it as fact does not make it so.

I'm not saying you shouldn't believe that it is a fact, but if you want others to believe it as fact, you must prove it. And the fact that it's written in a book is not proof. I can write a book but that's no proof that any of it is true.

In fact, the fact that so many different religions believe different things and that many believe nothing at all about Jesus and God, lends credence to the idea that everything about Jesus, God and religion is indeed, opinion.

You may hold your opinion as fact, but you cannot convince others that it is fact without proof, which you do not have.

However, if you have "really" read what I wrote, you'd also understand that I, nor a book can prove to you that there is God. Because God is not proven on experience or opinion, He is "proven" on belief and acceptance.

He can prove to you. I can only witness to you. I could tell you that God came to me in a vision, or a dream or appeared to me and that gives *me* proof, but not you. So again the point I am making is that belief in God isn't given to us by our experiences in life, it's our experiences that can actually cause us to doubt Him.

It seems so difficult, but yet it is so simple. All I can suggest to you is open your heart to Him, allow Him to come through and then begin reading His word. If it helps you to pray for understanding and belief, then pray. If it helps you to congregate with others who believe, then do that as well.

Of course you or I could write a book of experiences and opinions and it's anyones choice to believe us or not. But the Holy Bible is Him through and through, not just a book. It is the most Holy item any of us will ever have the pleasure of learning and/or owning.

If you're looking to me or anyone else for proof of God, then it would be only by chance that a spark ignites in you to go further into finding your own proof. And I'll do anything I can to assist anyone who has just a spark of interest or belief or desire to know God.

Mod Edit: removed quote of previous poster.


[edit on 4-4-2006 by Benevolent Heretic]

I personally have a great respect for buddhism.. it is a loving and compassionate belief system. It would bring world peace if everyone practiced it and were willing to reject their own beliefs [if they're intollerent ones].. to me that is a fact. Who's for world peace? Is that as good as having a messiah? Decisions, decisions.. just as well there are people willing to tell us which choices are the 'right' ones to make. :shk:

[edit on 4-4-2006 by riley]

Because God is not proven on experience or opinion, He is "proven" on belief and acceptance.

Then there are many God's. Not just your's.

He can prove to you. I can only witness to you. I could tell you that God came to me in a vision, or a dream or appeared to me and that gives *me* proof, but not you. So again the point I am making is that belief in God isn't given to us by our experiences in life, it's our experiences that can actually cause us to doubt Him.

Has he physically appeared to you before? Or in a "vision" or dream? Do you base your proofs on dreams?

It seems so difficult, but yet it is so simple. All I can suggest to you is open your heart to Him, allow Him to come through and then begin reading His word. If it helps you to pray for understanding and belief, then pray. If it helps you to congregate with others who believe, then do that as well.

I suggest you do the same with any one of the many other God's. May I suggest Horus? He seem's to have had a very similar life and teaching as Jesus.

Of course you or I could write a book of experiences and opinions and it's anyones choice to believe us or not. But the Holy Bible is Him through and through, not just a book. It is the most Holy item any of us will ever have the pleasure of learning and/or owning.

That's your opinion, you don't have any tangible evidence that anything in the bible was written down by God or through God. The bible was written by people like you and me. It's your choice to believe someone's word, even if it is false.

If you're looking to me or anyone else for proof of God, then it would be only by chance that a spark ignites in you to go further into finding your own proof. And I'll do anything I can to assist anyone who has just a spark of interest or belief or desire to know God.

I've got a desire to "know" God, but not in the same manner as yourself. The same desire to know the many other God's worshipped before your god. The many other saviors before your Jesus. The many other creation myths and flood myths and exodus' before your bible's. I chose to not stop at a mere two thousand year old legend. I decided to look furthur back and find the source of all this.

Originally posted by magestica
I, nor a book can prove to you that there is God.

I fully understand that. In fact I said that. That was my point.

He can prove to you.

Good. He knows where to find me, I hear.

All I can suggest to you is open your heart to Him, allow Him to come through and then begin reading His word. If it helps you to pray for understanding and belief, then pray. If it helps you to congregate with others who believe, then do that as well.

I have read the bible many times. And I don't need any help. I'm doing really well, thanks.

But the Holy Bible is Him through and through, not just a book. It is the most Holy item any of us will ever have the pleasure of learning and/or owning.

It's just a book to me. I understand it's special to you and that's great.

If you're looking to me or anyone else for proof of God,

Nope, not looking. Thanks. Just responding to your assertion that "opinion" and "experience" have no place in a discussion about Jesus, yet "fact" does.

Then there are many God's. Not just your's.

I know what mythology says about "gods" or demigods such as those of Egypt or Babylon. If you choose to worship those gods, then that is up to you, but this thread isn't about those gods, so perhaps we can discuss that elsewhere and another time..This discussion is on Jesus and God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob. The Alpha and Omega. Not the sun and the moon.

Has he physically appeared to you before? Or in a "vision" or dream? Do you base your proofs on dreams?

No. No and no. I gave that as an example of what one might consider "proof".

It seems so difficult, but yet it is so simple. All I can suggest to you is open your heart to Him, allow Him to come through and then begin reading His word. If it helps you to pray for understanding and belief, then pray. If it helps you to congregate with others who believe, then do that as well.

I suggest you do the same with any one of the many other God's. May I suggest Horus? He seem's to have had a very similar life and teaching as Jesus.

You are free to suggest. But I will not worship a sun god. I worship the Creator of all beings here on earth and in heaven. Again, if you want to bring in some pagan god, then can I suggest starting a thread about it (if you haven't already), and we can discuss it there.

That's your opinion, you don't have any tangible evidence that anything in the bible was written down by God or through God. The bible was written by people like you and me. It's your choice to believe someone's word, even if it is false.

The bible is tangible. And it is evidence. What is your expectation? Are you looking for something tangible to make you believe? Or do you enjoy debating with believers and trying to disprove God?

I've got a desire to "know" God, but not in the same manner as yourself. The same desire to know the many other God's worshipped before your god. The many other saviors before your Jesus. The many other creation myths and flood myths and exodus' before your bible's. I chose to not stop at a mere two thousand year old legend. I decided to look furthur back and find the source of all this.

I'm satisfied with knowing God. I'm completely satisfied in believing Jesus is the Prophesied Messiah. I don't need to look further or beyond because for me He is it. When I came to know Him, he became for me, Almighty, the One and Only. He is the source.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Nope, not looking. Thanks.

Just responding to your assertion that "opinion" and "experience" have no place in a discussion about Jesus, yet "fact" does.

I'm pretty sure that's exactly the point I was making in my post. That's why I wasn't sure whether you read it or not. There's not much more I can say to this unless I start repeating myself (which I have a tendency to do anyway LOL) But hey, atleast we agree that experience and opinion have no place in discussion about Jesus, but because we are human and our lives are full of those, we'll always resort back to them no matter what.
Mags

There is an alternative way but I have been told by others in the forum to not mention its use. Since you won't believe in God then try the Devil. He is always willing to give a manifestation of his "powers". You can invite, summon or whatever a demon and ask him personally. He may whoop up on you a bit but that sure would teach you a "tangible" lesson. I know I will catch grief from posting this from the christians but oh well. Some you save by fire.

No, magestica, you misunderstand. (Perhaps if YOU read MY posts.) We do not agree.

I was responding to this assertion:

Originally posted by magestica
I've read through as much as I can of this thread and what I see most are the words "opinion" and "experience", to me, these are words that should never be associated with Jesus.

I disagree with it and I responded.

I have no interest in believing in the Devil or God. Any more than I do the Easter Bunny or Santa Clause. There is no proof of them either.

I'm not looking for something else to believe. I have a very strong belief system, which I never try to sell or push on other people. I don't need to adopt someone else's.

I'm not saying that y'all shouldn't believe in them. Have at it. My point here is that stating something as fact does not make it fact. I realize you guys believe it, but if you want others like myself to believe it (and I don't even want to) then you'll have to present proof.

Originally posted by OneGodJesus
There is an alternative way but I have been told by others in the forum to not mention its use.

Well, isn't that curious! An alternative way to what?

I know what mythology says about "gods" or demigods such as those of Egypt or Babylon. If you choose to worship those gods, then that is up to you, but this thread isn't about those gods, so perhaps we can discuss that elsewhere and another time..This discussion is on Jesus and God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob. The Alpha and Omega. Not the sun and the moon.

I understand what the thread is about. I was stating something upon your comment.

"Because God is not proven on experience or opinion, He is "proven" on belief and acceptance."

Your God is proven to yourself on your belief and acceptence of your god. Same hold's true for other belief's out there.

No. No and no. I gave that as an example of what one might consider "proof".

So, then why do you really believe in your god? Just belief and acceptance alone?

You are free to suggest. But I will not worship a sun god. I worship the Creator of all beings here on earth and in heaven. Again, if you want to bring in some pagan god, then can I suggest starting a thread about it (if you haven't already), and we can discuss it there.

You already do worship a sun god. And a demi-god as well. Can't get much more "pagan" then that. Maybe I should start a thread.

The bible is tangible. And it is evidence. What is your expectation? Are you looking for something tangible to make you believe? Or do you enjoy debating with believers and trying to disprove God?

It is tangible evidence that men wrote the bible. Not that it is "Gods" word. And yes, I do enjoy debating with believer's. I don't expect any tangible evidence for something that doesn't exist. That's asking for the impossible.

I'm satisfied with knowing God. I'm completely satisfied in believing Jesus is the Prophesied Messiah. I don't need to look further or beyond because for me He is it. When I came to know Him, he became for me, Almighty, the One and Only. He is the source.

How can you know God? You've never seen him or heard him, or are you misleading me? You know him through a book and a church. You really think Jesus was the Messiah? Where was it prophesied that there would be a second comming of the messiah in the OT? Where in the OT is god both mortal and immortal? Where in the OT is god considered as three? Where in the OT is it prophesied that the messiah will be god incarnate or the son of god?

Originally posted by OneGodJesus
There is an alternative way but I have been told by others in the forum to not mention its use. Since you won't believe in God then try the Devil. He is always willing to give a manifestation of his "powers". You can invite, summon or whatever a demon and ask him personally. He may whoop up on you a bit but that sure would teach you a "tangible" lesson. I know I will catch grief from posting this from the christians but oh well. Some you save by fire.

Sorry, not into pagan rituals. But hey, if anyone does try it let me know how it goes!

Forgot to mention that one small thing. If the experiences of man cannot be trusted to interpret fact from fiction then science is an illusion. The results are the product of the experience of conducting the tests. Without a will to conduct the tests or experiments there would be no experience with which to base your conclusions. Have you never heard that the best teacher is experience? The text books you read about poetry are most times experience driven, the book that have art in them are typically a mood or experience driven inspiration. The science that you depend upon is typically through trial and error thus experience. The history books are based upon an experience. The life you live is based upon experiences that teach you. Remember the stove example? Hot stuff, a tough lesson to be sure but it was an experience that taught you to careful around fire and things it heats up.

If you have no experience how can you base your reasoning powers upon something to deduce its whole? It is this very thing that transforms you from an animal into a reasoning creature. You can learn from others experiences and change the outcome.

Science class: Put an animal into a room and cause it some form a of pain that is temporary. Put that same animal into the room of fellow animals of the same species and he will not endeavor to explain that experience even if the item in the room is the same thing that caused the pain. He will just avoid it. The other animals in the room will have to have their own experiences to learn the lesson.

In closing, I think that saying that an experience is not necessary is folly. It is my opinion, that if you have foundation with which to speak on a subject from personal experience you no credibility to speak. You are basing your opinion of others experiences or their ill informed opinions.