The Fact is, Jesus is the prophesied Messiah

The facts say Jesus is the Christ, the Messiah. Can you prove it is not so?
Bring your facts.

Well I was raised a christian (Protestant) then in my mid teens my mom became a Catholic . I stopped going to church when I was twelve (I thought it was boring and everything). Now I'm just not religious because well it's really hard to know what's really true or not. Besides a lot of christians are real nasty hypocrites ( I know not ALL are just some). Then again people from other religions are often nastier, like muslims. As for proof of whether or not Jesus is the messiah, well I guess I have no absolute proof either way...Jesus being the true messiah is a nice thought though I guess. But man some of his followers are shady...

Well I was raised a christian (Protestant) then in my mid teens my mom became a Catholic . I stopped going to church when I was twelve (I thought it was boring and everything). Now I'm just not religious because well it's really hard to know what's really true or not. Besides a lot of christians are real nasty hypocrites ( I know not ALL are just some). Then again people from other religions are often nastier, like muslims. As for proof of whether or not Jesus is the messiah, well I guess I have no absolute proof either way...Jesus being the true messiah is a nice thought though I guess. But man some of his followers are shady...

I was raised Catholic and became a Christian. The Muslims are nasty because they are following a false god. The Muslim people have been fed a crock and as such attack Christians and Jews, certainly not the will of God.

[edit on 19-3-2006 by Sun Matrix]

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
The facts say Jesus is the Christ, the Messiah. Can you prove it is not so?
Bring your facts.

If we wait a thousand years does that prove that he's not coming back as predicted? There are no facts that say he's the messiah or that he even existed.. that takes faith. My inability to prove fairies don't exist doesn't make them real either.. christ is the same deal.

[edit on 19-3-2006 by riley]

JEZZ...you cannot prove or disprove anything like this...to use scripture to make your case is an invalid form of arguement that would never be admitted in a formal debate. You would have to make the arguement based on known verifible facts, anything else would be personal opinion and a matter of faith which is exactly where specultation like this belongs. Personally i have come to believe after years of study and meditation that religion is best understood as a metaphor (a constantly changing and evolving metaphor) for mankind's approach to the ineffable. Anything else is speculation. To drag myth, symbol and metaphor into the waking world is to release a nightmare and to render sterile that only grows and prospers in the recesses of the human heart.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
The facts say Jesus is the Christ, the Messiah. Can you prove it is not so?
Bring your facts.

You lay the claim, so really the pressure is upon you to provide the facts that he is.

1) The Messiah will be a descendent of David. Joseph was not Jesus' father, therefore, Jesus can not be a descendent of David. Mary lied and stupidly mistranslated alma to mean virgin. Ooops. Nothing says the Messiah will be born of adultry.

2) The Messiah will build the third temple. Where is it? Jesus never built anything, he just ran around proclaiming to be king of the Jews or God himself in his own special little way. One of the reason's the Roman's killed him.

3) The Messiah will bring world peace, NOT bring in a new religion that could only climb it's way up to power through wars and violence and intollerance.

4) The Messiah was to bring all Jews back to Israel. Jesus did not do this. In fact, the religion that was created after his death has persecuted the Jews for the past 1900 years. The OT doesn't say the Messiah will create the great powerfull ignorant and violent Vatican and Christian faith.

5) The Messiah was supposed to spread universal knowledge of the God off Israel, he was not to proclaim to be king and one with God himself. The Messiah is a human, like you and me, not a pagan demi-god.

6) Jesus contradicts the Torah, whereas the Messiah was to lead the Jews to full Torah observance. Deut. 13:1-4

7) There is no suffering servent in the book of Isaiah. God is talking to the Jewish nation as a whole, he does so on many time's with a singular pronoun in the Torah.

8) The second coming is a Christian invention. There is no such thing in the Torah.

9) Jesus most idiotic remark, probably would have given himself more credibility if he had just kept his mouth shut in the first place.

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:" (Matthew 28:19)

"I and the Father are one" (John 10:30).

Why would Jesus say this and other time's claiming to be God when it's always been known that God was ONE.

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:" (Deut. 6:4)

10) Can only find god through Jesus? Since when?

"No man cometh unto the Father but by me."

Why would Jesus say that when it's already been known ...

"God is near to all who call unto Him" (Psalms 145:18)

Did Jesus just happen to forget this? Did Jesus just happen to forget that god is ONE and not some pagan trinity?

What evidence is there that Jesus was the Messiah? Nothing. He fulfills hardly any of the prophecies. Oooh right ... Second coming, the fabled Christian lie to cover up their false Messiah's short comings.

Originally posted by riley

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
The facts say Jesus is the Christ, the Messiah. Can you prove it is not so?
Bring your facts.

If we wait a thousand years does that prove that he's not coming back as predicted? There are no facts that say he's the messiah or that he even existed.. that takes faith. My inability to prove fairies don't exist doesn't make them real either.. christ is the same deal.

[edit on 19-3-2006 by riley]

I think that we have enough historical documentation to prove he existed.

If we wait a thousand years does that prove that he's not coming back as predicted?

You won't have to wait a thousand years. The nation of Israel has been reborn, Jerusalem came under partial Israeli control and the clock is ticking.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
You won't have to wait a thousand years. The nation of Israel has been reborn, Jerusalem came under partial Israeli control and the clock is ticking.

The Messiah is the one who is supposed to do this. And no, not all Jews are going back to Israel as the Messiah is the one to bring them all back. There's nothing in the news about a mass exodus of Jewish people returning to Jerusalem. Another Christian myth.

JEZZ...you cannot prove or disprove anything like this...to use scripture to make your case is an invalid form of arguement that would never be admitted in a formal debate.

Sure you can. If I have a prophecy and can verify that it was fulfilled, what more is needed.

You would have to make the arguement based on known verifible facts, anything else would be personal opinion and a matter of faith which is exactly where specultation like this belongs.

Well there is the prophecy itself, and thousands of eyewitnesses.

Personally i have come to believe after years of study and meditation that religion is best understood as a metaphor (a constantly changing and evolving metaphor)

I have no use for religion. I'm not talking about religion, I'm talking about truth and fact. Jesus is the prophesied Messiah.

To drag myth, symbol and metaphor into the waking world is to release a nightmare

And that exactly what happened.

Sure you can. If I have a prophecy and can verify that it was fulfilled, what more is needed.

Exactly why Jesus isn't the Messiah, he never fulfilled the prophecy.

Well there is the prophecy itself, and thousands of eyewitnesses.

God said he would send charlatans to test the people's faith. Those who followed the false Messiah, Jesus, failed.

I have no use for religion. I'm not talking about religion, I'm talking about truth and fact. Jesus is the prophesied Messiah.

How are you talking about truth and fact and still sitting there kidding youself into believing Jesus was the Messiah?

To drag myth, symbol and metaphor into the waking world is to release a nightmare

And that exactly what happened.

That's right, by the Christians. The made use of pagan holidays and myths for their own purposes, amongst other thing, and look at what happened. For the past 1900 years it's been a nightmare for the Jews.

Quote: "The Messiah was to bring all Jews back to Israel."

Well how is this possible since the Nation State of Israel only came into existence in 1948! Don't you mean "Palestine" or "Judea". Maybe the whole World is "Israel" since in the Old Testament the
Hebraic "God" encouraged his people to Invade Foriegn lands in his name & take them over as their own! Seems as if "Christians" are not the only ones twisting around their Ideologies
(Ahem, Ahem - Zionism is NOT Judaism)!!!

Has it occured to you that maybe the "Christian God" & the "Hebraic God" are not the same God & that we are OK with that? Or maybe we are all just silly Monkeys playing games with each other (this has been going on for THOUSANDS of YEARS) & the REAL Universal Mind is beyond what we as humans can Comprehend!

[edit on 19-3-2006 by Seraphim_Serpente]

You lay the claim, so really the pressure is upon you to provide the facts that he is.

No problem, I will start with #1

1) The Messiah will be a descendent of David. Joseph was not Jesus' father, therefore, Jesus can not be a descendent of David. Mary lied and stupidly mistranslated alma to mean virgin. Ooops. Nothing says the Messiah will be born of adultry.

No problem with tracing his lineage. Joseph, Jesus step father, can be traced to the house of David through his son Solomon as shown below.

Oh, so you say since Jesus was born of a virgin, his father was not Joseph. No problem, skip down to the next section.

Matthew 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham. 2 Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren; 3 And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram; 4 And Aram begat Aminadab; and Aminadab begat Naasson; and Naasson begat Salmon; 5 And Salmon begat Booz of Rachab; and Booz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse; 6 And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias; 7 And Solomon begat Roboam; and Roboam begat Abia; and Abia begat Asa; 8 And Asa begat Josaphat; and Josaphat begat Joram; and Joram begat Ozias; 9 And Ozias begat Joatham; and Joatham begat Achaz; and Achaz begat Ezekias; 10 And Ezekias begat Manasses; and Manasses begat Amon; and Amon begat Josias; 11 And Josias F1 begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon: 12 And after they were brought to Babylon, Jechonias begat Salathiel; and Salathiel begat Zorobabel; 13 And Zorobabel begat Abiud; and Abiud begat Eliakim; and Eliakim begat Azor; 14 And Azor begat Sadoc; and Sadoc begat Achim; and Achim begat Eliud; 15 And Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat Jacob; 16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ. 17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.

Please note that even though it says " being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, they are actually tracing Marys lineage through Nathan another of Davids sons. Compare the lineage and you will see that it is so.

Luke 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli, 24 Which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi, which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Janna, which was the son of Joseph, 25 Which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Amos, which was the son of Naum, which was the son of Esli, which was the son of Nagge, 26 Which was the son of Maath, which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Semei, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Juda, 27 Which was the son of Joanna, which was the son of Rhesa, which was the son of Zorobabel, which was the son of Salathiel, which was the son of Neri, 28 Which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Addi, which was the son of Cosam, which was the son of Elmodam, which was the son of Er, 29 Which was the son of Jose, which was the son of Eliezer, which was the son of Jorim, which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi, 30 Which was the son of Simeon, which was the son of Juda, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Jonan, which was the son of Eliakim, 31 Which was the son of Melea, which was the son of Menan, which was the son of Mattatha, which was the son of Nathan, which was the son of David, 32 Which was the son of Jesse, which was the son of Obed, which was the son of Booz, which was the son of Salmon, which was the son of Naasson, 33 Which was the son of Aminadab, which was the son of Aram, which was the son of Esrom, which was the son of Phares, which was the son of Juda, 34 Which was the son of Jacob, which was the son of Isaac, which was the son of Abraham, which was the son of Thara, which was the son of Nachor, 35 Which was the son of Saruch, which was the son of Ragau, which was the son of Phalec, which was the son of Heber, which was the son of Sala, 36 Which was the son of Cainan, which was the son of Arphaxad, which was the son of Sem, which was the son of Noe, which was the son of Lamech, 37 Which was the son of Mathusala, which was the son of Enoch, which was the son of Jared, which was the son of Maleleel, which was the son of Cainan, 38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

Since both Joseph and Marys lineage can be traced through the House of David, I would say that the Messiah did indeed come from the House of David.

Normally, when you speak of seed, you speak of the mans lineage, though clearly in Genesis 3 after Satan tempts Eve, God says that he will put enmity between Satans seed and the seed of a woman.

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

And so, the Messiah was born of a virgin, from the lineage of the House of David, just as prophesied.

Isaiah 7:10 Moreover the LORD spake again unto Ahaz, saying, 11 Ask thee a sign of the LORD thy God; ask it either in the depth, or in the height above. 12 But Ahaz said, I will not ask, neither will I tempt the LORD. 13 And he said, Hear ye now, O house of David; Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will ye weary my God also? 14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

I'm ready to move to question #2. Please show me what scripture you are referring to that says that the Messiah will build the third temple.

2) The Messiah will build the third temple. Where is it? Jesus never built anything, he just ran around proclaiming to be king of the Jews or God himself in his own special little way. One of the reason's the Roman's killed him.

Sun matrix, I kinda like your interminable posts and I admire your spunk, but you have to realise using to the Bible to prove something the Bible says is like using the writings of Joseph Smith to prove.. well .. The writings of Joseph Smith. Or, figuratively speaking, using David Koreshes diary to prove he really was whatever it was he claimed to be.

You're just not going to get a great audience for your claims on ATS. Most people on ATS are here because they've learned to think for themselves and seek out the answers for themselves. They don't need someone spoon feeding them it.

That shouldn't worry you after all, if what you speak is the truth then they should be able to find it by themselves, no? Isn't that pretty much the point?

I'm not an atheist, but neither am I such a fool to adhere to the words of someone purely because they insist it so

Unfortunately for you, neither are most of members of this site.

Sun matrix, I kinda like your interminable posts and I admire your spunk, but you have to realise using to the Bible to prove something the Bible says is like using the writings of Joseph Smith to prove.. well .. The writings of Joseph Smith.

Hey Kegs. Just sticking to facts and truth, man. If it's prophesied and it happened, it speaks for itself.

You're just not going to get a great audience for your claims on ATS. Most people on ATS are here because they've learned to think for themselves and seek out the answers for themselves. They don't need someone spoon feeding them it.

Most people are searching and end up chasing aliens and reptilians instead of truth.

That shouldn't worry you after all, if what you speak is the truth then they should be able to find it by themselves, no? Isn't that pretty much the point?

How can the blind see? Most people see what they are led to see, what they are taught to see.

I'm not an atheist, but neither am I such a fool to adhere to the words of someone purely because they insist it so Unfortunately for you, neither are most of members of this site.

I'll let the facts do the talking.

Keg, check the facts.

Normally, when you speak of seed, you speak of the mans lineage, though clearly in Genesis 3 after Satan tempts Eve, God says that he will put enmity between Satans seed and the seed of a woman.

It would do you best to crack open a dictionary once in awhile.

enmity: hostility: a state of deep-seated ill-will; hostility: the feeling of a hostile person; "he could no longer contain his hostility"

You should read this. members.aol.com...

"Women did not count in reckoning descent for the simple reason that it was then believed that the complete human was present in the man's sperm (the woman's egg wasn't discovered until 1827). The woman's womb was just the soil in which the seed was planted. Just as there was barren soil that could not produce crops, so also the Bible speaks of barren wombs that could not produce children."

...

There is no evidence that Mary was a descendant of David, but Dennis McKinsey, the editor of Biblical Errancy [2], points out there is some evidence that she was a member of a completely separate line, a descendant of Levi, the great-grandfather of Aaron and Moses. That evidence comes from the pen of Luke, who wrote that Elisabeth, who was a daughter of Aaron, was the cousin of Mary. Here is the story:

After telling Mary that the Holy Ghost would cause the virgin Mary to conceive Jesus, he also tells her that he had already done something similar for her cousin:

"There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. (Luke 1:5)....And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren."(Luke 1:36)

Take a closer look at your two verses. No where in them do they trace Mary's lineage.

Mathew's : 16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

Jacob begat Joseph, no where does it say anything about Mary's lineage.

Luke's : 23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,

But there's a problem with Luke's, Joseph was not the father of Jesus, God was if it were a true virgin birth.

And so, the Messiah was born of a virgin, from the lineage of the House of David, just as prophesied.

Alma meant young woman, not virgin. Obviously someone screwed up somewhere when they were lying about not commiting adultry *cough*Mary*cough*.

www.outreachjudaism.org...

I'm ready to move to question #2. Please show me what scripture you are referring to that says that the Messiah will build the third temple.

“I shall give My Sanctuary in their midst forever. My dwelling-place shall be over them .. The nations shall know that I am god who sanctifies Israel, when My Sanctuary shall be in the midst of them forever. Ezekiel 37:26-28



[edit on 19-3-2006 by Produkt]

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
I think that we have enough historical documentation to prove he existed.

I'm guessing you consider the bible to be 'historical evidence'? If that is the case Merlin must exist as well.

Please provide something other than your personal faith as proof.

I suppose someone just made up this large book for fun heck there was no internet back than right what else are you gonna do!

First understand any concept of God you can than ask why we have duality? Without + there is no -. If God is this thing that is anything which lies in all of us. There is a reason for babel correct? Now consider the fact normal evolution would create an uncovering of God by man. I won't state the obvious when God is uncovered. Ok now if there was no form to follow there would be either nothing or just chaos. So if the antichrist comes down and starts blowing fire from his arse than would you believe there is a Christ?

I think you would. And when you see and belive you take your pick. Heaven or Hell?

Follow my doctrine and fall or have faith.

My lies are truth and my truth are lies.

Woe onto those who take my truth and blessed are those who take my faith.

nsawantsmedead,

There will be no antichrist. This is a Christian invention used for the second coming of the false Messiah that will not happen. Revelations is a fairy tale. Jesus clearly says the end was soon .... a long tima go.

Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels. And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power

Some would die before the kingdom of god came, other's he was talking to would live to see it! That was when the kingdom of god was supposed to come, and it didn't. Instead we get the idiocy of the Christian church comming into power. The blind sheeple who can't look past they're own lie's and see the truth right in their own book.