Freemasonry=Road paved with good intentions going to hell! :)

Roark,

This is obviously a tenet of Christian faith. Monotheism. It falls perfectly in line with the prerequisite of Freemasonry, that is, belief in one all-powerful Deity. Freemasonry doesn't present alternative gods for the Christian man, nor does it arbitrate how he is to approach or worship God, because that is the role of Christianity - his religion.

No.. it does NOT fall perfectly in line with the prequisite of Freemasonry. Freemasonry DOES present alternative gods. You can not perform all the rituals and rites that are performed in Freemasonry unless you associate them with some 'core' to 'learn' from . What would be the point of the said rite or ritual unless you did? (Remember how you defined ritual and rite)

Let me ask you this Roark..

Do you have seperate rites and rituals for every different kind of religion and 'god' that's 'attached' to freemasonry?




[edit on 8-3-2006 by TxSecret]

Originally posted by TxSecret
I'm not questioning any 'good' that comes out of Freemasonry, I'm questioning the NAME they are doing it in.. don't you understand??

Why does there have to be a "name" behind every act of kindness?

Freemasons do it because they recognise that it is a good thing, in and of itself.

If you can't recognise that, then there is a significant problem with dogma muddying the waters of Christ's message of love and selflessness.

Originally posted by TxSecret
Appak, I already told you guys I'm not here to judge anyone.

The very foundation of Freemasonry is Friendship, Morality and Brotherly Love. How could that be incompatible with the Bible?

VERY easily I must say.

Hmph! Friendship, Morality and Brotherly Love are incompatible with the Bible. Interesting indeed. You must have a different Bible than I do.

If you have not read the Bible you will not understand why this is.

LOL! Not only have I read it, it is my job as well as my duty to read it daily.

I'm not questioning any 'good' that comes out of Freemasonry, I'm questioning the NAME they are doing it in.. don't you understand??

Certainly. They're doing it in the name of Friendship, Morality and Brotherly Love; something that is HIGHLY compatible with the Holy Bible.

In the end that's all that's going to matter.

True. Particularly because of Him who said "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it:

Thou shal love thy neighbor as thyself. On THESE TWO commandments hang ALL THE LAW of the Prophets." --Matthew 22:37--40

(emphasis mine)

Pax Vobiscum

Roark,

Answer me please..

Again:

Do you have seperate rites and rituals for every different kind of religion and 'god' that's 'attached' to freemasonry?

Appak.

Particularly because of Him who said "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it:

How ironic.

But yet, you support every other god, religion, doctine, etc,etc,etc attached to Freemasonry?

Originally posted by TxSecret

Appak.

Particularly because of Him who said "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it:

How ironic.

But yet, you support every other god, religion, doctine, etc,etc,etc attached to Freemasonry?

LOL. So think there ARE "other Gods?" I was taught (and I teach) that there is but ONE God and Freemasonry requires that her members believe in ONE God....THE Creator and Sustainer of all.

As far as religion, Masonry isn't one, so how could I support a religion attached to it. As far as doctrine: Friendship, Morality and Brotherly Love...personally I have no problem with that at all. As far as the etc. etc. etc. I'll get back to you. etc.

Pax

Appak,

The 'cyclic circle' has reared it's ugle head yet again. I'm going to have to take a break from all this for a few.

I think you will find that the 'god' you mention in Freemasonry and the God I'm familiar with are entirely two different things.

How can you say there is one 'god' 'over' Freemasonry while supporting every other 'god' out there that's 'attached' to Freemasonry....

Does not make ANY sense whatssoever.


ANY other 'god' that does not make a provision for my salvation though his Only Begotten Son is NOT the same 'god that I worship. Simple logic dictates this. You CAN NOT divorce on belief/god from another in Freemasonry because of the way they are melded with rite and ritual. Really simple to me.


I have to take a break. It's been spirited and I have enjoyed it but I think I have made my point perfectly clear and will pick this up later.

Cheers







[edit on 8-3-2006 by TxSecret]

Originally posted by TxSecret
No.. it does NOT fall perfectly in line with the prequisite of Freemasonry. Freemasonry DOES present alternative gods.
[edit on 8-3-2006 by TxSecret]

I guess you can use "yes it does" and "no it doesn't" as an argument, but I'm afraid the burden of proof lies upon you to demonstrate which alternative gods Freemasonry presents. We as Freemasons recognise an all-powerful Deity. As a Christian, I have never been asked to worship or acknowledge another deity, nor has any OTHER Mason been encouraged or forced to acknowledge any Deity other than the Creator (or Grand Architect, as we refer to Him/Her). You are are telling me that this is NOT the case, despite having never been in a Lodge room, and being unacquainted with the practice of Freemasonry. Can you not see how problematic this is?

Originally posted by TxSecret
You can not perform all the rituals and rites that are performed in Freemasonry unless you associate them with some 'core' to 'learn' from . What would be the point of the said rite or ritual unless you did? (Remember how you defined ritual and rite)
[edit on 8-3-2006 by TxSecret]

I'm not entirely sure (and forgive me if I'm wrong), but I think you're suggesting that rituals and rites must necessarily be tied to a particular system of faith. This is incorrect. Humans engage in rituals every day. It can be something as simple as tying one's shoelaces a particular way whilst singing a little ditty. Rituals are almost natural to humans and their learning process, because they are all about familiarity. In the case of Freemasonry, they are designed to implant certain moral lessons, none of which have a necessary foundation in one or another of the world's religions.

Originally posted by TxSecret
Let me ask you this Roark..

Do you have seperate rites and rituals for every different kind of religion and 'god' that's 'attached' to freemasonry?
[edit on 8-3-2006 by TxSecret]

I fail to see why this is relevant, to be honest...

As I tried to explain, our rites are not tied to a particular religion, nor do they conflict with any of the faith systems that our brethren follow. They are largely morality lessons.

Originally posted by TxSecret
I think you will find that the 'god' you mention in Freemasonry and the God I'm familiar with are entirely two different things.
I have made my point perfectly clear and will pick this up later.
Cheers

I'm afraid you cannot see that there is no "god in Freemasonry" only God. ONE. One and the same. Freemasonry is not nor should it ever be a religion. But in the end it (Freemasonry) isn't for everyone and obviously it's not for you. That's your choice and obviously best for you.

Peace
-appak

Originally posted by TxSecret


How can you say there is one 'god' 'over' Freemasonry while supporting every other 'god' out there that's 'attached' to Freemasonry....

Does not make ANY sense whatssoever.

That's because you're attacking a straw man. You don't seem to comprehend that there aren't any "gods attached to Freemasonry". It is true that Freemasonry recognizes the existence of a Moral Governor of the universe, but the fraternity uses this as a philosophical concept rather than as a religious one. A Mason's personal religious beliefs are just that: personal beliefs, that have nothing to do with the fraternity's philosophical teachings, which, of course, are acceptable to decent men of any religious belief.

1ki 18:21 And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word.

1jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.


1co 10:21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.


It's right under your nose guys. (If you were really a Christian, you might see it)

Masonic Light
"You don't seem to comprehend that there aren't any "gods attached to Freemasonry"."

But there ARE ML, no matter how you try to twist things or rationalize them. (With alegory or philosophy)

There's either the One True God, or it's 'baal'. In the spirit there is no in between.

You can't have shrines, temples and related rites and rituals and not call it 'all' a religion. (Of course, most of all this is a secret right? why?)

You CAN'T help someone grow spiritually without 'pointing' them in a particular 'direction' or 'god head'. You can't divorce this no matter how hard you try, or twist, or rationalize.

I'm not going to perform rites and rituals (which have spiritual implications, even though you say they don't) at an 'altar' that shares it's 'space' with every other god that happens to be present. To do so would be a slap in the face to Jesus.
(This would violate clearly what is spoken in 1 co 10:21)

In order for me to embrace Freemasonry it would require that I give up my belief in what the Bible says. Of course I'm simply not going to do that.


Masonic Light.. I wish you would expound futher on how rites and rituals are used in Freemasonry. rituals and rites have spiritual implications and I still have not gotten a straight answer from you as to how these rituals and rites are 'reconciled' with every respective 'belief system' that meanders into your hallowed temples. I guess this 'reconciliation' is left to each respective intitiate? (Sounds REALLY messy to me)



Sort it all out for me please...






[edit on 9-3-2006 by TxSecret]

Originally posted by TxSecret



It's right under your nose guys. (If you were really a Christian, you might see it)

With all due respect, I don't think any Christians on this forum, whether they be Masons or not, need your approval to be "real" ones.

But there ARE ML, no matter how you try to twist things or rationalize them. (With alegory or philosophy)

The twisting is coming from your end, my friend. Christians who are Masons are quite comfortable with their fraternity, because, of course, they have no need to twist the facts, being themselves Masonic members and aware of what Masonry really is.

There's either the One True God, or it's 'baal'.

With all due respect, I'm not interested in your theology, nor any sect or cult you belong to, nor its teachings. Like I said, Christian Masons are very comfortable being both Christians and Masons. If you don't approve of it, it's not their problem.

You can't have shrines, temples and related rites and rituals and not call it 'all' a religion. (Of course, most of all this is a secret right? why?)

Actually, none of it is a secret, but why let facts stand in the way of a good hellfire-and-brimstone diatribe?

You CAN'T help someone grow spiritually without 'pointing' them in a particular 'direction' or 'god head'. You can't divorce this no matter how hard you try, or twist, or rationalize.

Of course you have to point such persons in a particular direction. No one ever claimed otherwise. Again, you're making a straw man argument.

I'm not going to perform rites and rituals (which have spiritual implications, even though you say they don't) at an 'altar' that shares it's 'space' with every other god that happens to be present. To do so would be a slap in the face to Jesus.

I don't remember seeing anyone here ever asking you to request admission into our Fraternity. What rites and rituals you may or may not perform is of no concern to me.

In order for me to embrace Freemasonry it would require that I give up my belief in what the Bible says. Of course I'm simply not going to do that.

Again, I just don't fathom what you're trying to do here. You denounce Masonry in an almost comic dramatic fashion harkening back to the old preachers of the dark ages, then pompously declare you're "simply not" going to request admission, as if we care.

Masonic Light.. I wish you would expound futher on how rites and rituals are used in Freemasonry. rituals and rites have spiritual implications and I still have not gotten a straight answer from you as to how these rituals and rites are 'reconciled' with every respective 'belief system' that meanders into your hallowed temples. I guess this 'reconciliation' is left to each respective intitiate? (Sounds REALLY messy to me)

Under normal circumstances, I would do exactly that (in fact, I have many times before here, and you're welcome to look through the archives). However, your arrogance would probably prevent you from learning anything from it. If you think you already "know" something, then obviously, you're not likely to learn anything from anyone else.

Remember: pride in unsound theories is worse than ignorance.

Txsecret-Everything that you say makes a great arguement/debate but what I've found, here or anywhere is that there is no mason EVER going to walk away from Freemasonry no matter what you say, what you prove or what you suggest, be it straight there in front of their face, be they Christians (real ones) or not.

Masons claim to be "enlightened" however what I see is a society of men who are more in the dark and farther away from the truth than a satanist. Because satanists atleast "embrace" their belief and worship, masons deny any such claim yet you or I will NEVER get anywhere attempting to "bring them into the light" because their arguement holds no more than a grain of salt simply because in order for a mason to prove anything they spout out, they would have to reveal their so called "secrets." It's the same arguement over and over and as you can see here, it's from the same source.

What all masons need to realise here on this board or in "real life" is that people like myself or Txsecret are not bashing you or threatening you we are only trying to help you save your soul. Full Stop.

ML,

I think you are confusing 'arrogance' with Faith. I definitely don't mean to come across as arrogant so try to let that roll off your back.

The Bible is not about theories and it's definitely does not teach theology or 'religion'. Jesus didn't teach philosophy, theology OR religion. Simple.


Unfortunately, this can only be debated philosophically and it always boils down to faith versus faith.

Faith can ultimately only stand on the foundation of what convicted belief you have deep down and that definitely comes only from the inside.

The Bible speaks about 'spiritual discernment' and the need to have the Holy Spirit guide you and help you properly understand scripture. How can you expect to have this gift that's freely given if your back is turned on God (Or partially turned)?

I could sit here and say that you have your back turned on God and you will come back and say that you don't. (With all the philosophical points to go along with it) We can argue this until we are blue in the face but what good will it do?

I could sit here and say that there is only one way to God and you will come back and say that there are 'multiple' ways to God (As Freemasonry basically teaches) but what good is it for us to argue about that?

I have to say we definitely 'see' things differently.


That aside, I have to ask again and please some heart into this as I will slow down and focus on it with you. I really want understand this.:

How does Freemasonry reconcile its' rites and rituals with each, respective initiates belief system or 'god'? You have to agree with me when I assume that there are defnitely conflicts.


Also, I'm still decyphering your last reponse concerning your angle on scripture but I want to focus on this one.

1co 10:21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.

What do you think Paul meant by this when he wrote it to the Church at Corinth?


Hopefully we can focus on those two things for awhile.

Majestica,

I agree. I probably won't push this much futher here and I wish I had a 'silver bullet' if you will but it's all good.

You are also right that I'm not here to judge or threaten anyone, even though I do get a little more impassioned than I should.

Also, you were so right when you said this is all about saving souls. (A chill just went up and down my spine)

Makes me think of this Scripture:

Mt 4:19 And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.

Wow..

One thing I've come to realize is that I can't be philosophical or theological about my Faith. You can't 'pit' your Faith against someone elses and I think I've gotten to the point (at least here) that God has to take over from here and in that light I pray for ALL Masons. (Christians or not)


You would not believe some of the things that have happened in my life lately after I turned my life over to Jesus. One thing I will mention is that Jesus delivered my father from alcoholism after almost 50 YEARS of drinking!..


Speaking of answered prayers.

Things in life are still bumpy and I have a LOT of rough edges to work out but I have my eyes on Jesus and ONLY Him. Only by his blood are we reconciled to the True Living God. There is none other 'beside' him. I just hope that more and more people realize this before it's too late.



In summary, and I do say this in good spirit:

Serve Jesus directly.. Why do you need a middle man? I'm not saying judge and condemn people of other faiths I'm just saying DON'T SUPPORT IT. WHY as a Christian would you directly, or indirectly support a Muslim down the path of the Koran even though you know deep down in your heart its one of the many paths to destruction? THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE DOING WHEN YOU ARE INVOLVED IN FREEMASONRY. Why is that so hard to understand? I'm not going to judge or condemn my Muslim brother just because he follows the Koran but I'm NOT going to support an organization that's helping further hims down this road!


Nuff' for now.

Originally posted by magestica
What all masons need to realise here on this board or in "real life" is that people like myself or Txsecret are not bashing you or threatening you we are only trying to help you save your soul. Full Stop.

I thought this was a conspiracy site not Bible College. Sheesh...to think I wasted all that time....when magestica could be saving my soul.

Hi magestica

Originally posted by magestica
What all masons need to realise here on this board or in "real life" is that people like myself or Txsecret are not bashing you or threatening you we are only trying to help you save your soul. Full Stop.

Well I for one realize exactly what you are trying to do. I recognize that your heart is in the right place and you are taking a great deal of time and trouble to try and be helpful. How could I not appreciate that?

... their arguement holds no more than a grain of salt simply because in order for a mason to prove anything they spout out, they would have to reveal their so called "secrets."

It's been regularly and repetitively covered that the only actual secrets in freemasonry are the modes of recognition. I don't think I 'spout' particularly, but have tried to explain to the best of my ability why freemasonry is not incompatible with Christianity.

Freemasonry effectively says to the Christian freemason - "study the Bible, deepen your faith, great truths and enlightenment can be found therein". I don't understand the problem with this and I'd be grateful if someone could explain it to me.

Originally posted by TxSecret
ML,

I think you are confusing 'arrogance' with Faith.

Not at all. Faith means we believe something. Arrogance is confusing faith with facts. I have faith that when I get home from work, my house will not have been burglarized. But it would be ridiculous to condemn everybody who said that my house could be burglarized, even right now as we speak, because they of course would be correct.

The Bible is not about theories and it's definitely does not teach theology or 'religion'. Jesus didn't teach philosophy, theology OR religion. Simple.

Jesus taught all three. If you don't believe that, I'd suggest you go back and read the red lettering you were talking about earlier.

The Bible speaks about 'spiritual discernment' and the need to have the Holy Spirit guide you and help you properly understand scripture. How can you expect to have this gift that's freely given if your back is turned on God (Or partially turned)?

You keep wanting to debate the Bible. I, on the other hand, do not. If you wish to argue theology, I would suggest you locate a Christian forum. You will find that the various Christian denominations on the Christian forums are at each other's throats just as much as you and the Masons on ATS, but at least you'll be able to dazzle them by quoting Bible verses ad nauseum.

How does Freemasonry reconcile its' rites and rituals with each, respective initiates belief system or 'god'? You have to agree with me when I assume that there are defnitely conflicts.

No, I don't agree. Neither do I see the need to "reconcile" anything. Let me give you an example: I know it's wrong to steal. You know it's wrong to steal. The Hindu knows it's wrong to steal, as does the Buddhist, Jain, Mormon, Presbyterian, and Jew. Now, if I get all you guys from different religions and tell you it's wrong to steal, you don't have to "reconcile" this fact with you "belief system or god", as you put it.

What do you think Paul meant by this when he wrote it to the Church at Corinth?

I think Paul, if it was indeed Paul who wrote the Epistles that bear his name, had an agenda of eliminating Gnosticism in favor of Roman Catholicism.

Personally, I prefer the Gnostics.

Originally posted by TxSecret
Majestica,
I agree. I probably won't push this much futher here and I wish I had a 'silver bullet' if you will but it's all good.

You're surely not going to start shooting Masons are you? I hope not...these seem like nice guys. Or by Silver Bullet did you mean a Coors Lite? (or Bob Seger?)

You are also right that I'm not here to judge or threaten anyone, even though I do get a little more impassioned than I should.
Also, you were so right when you said this is all about saving souls. (A chill just went up and down my spine)

Why is "saving souls" on the agenda for today? Are you appointed to save souls Tx? (or magestica for that matter) You are apparently judging (although you said you weren't here to do so) by assuming that Masons souls AREN'T saved (I'd imagine there are some who aren't but it has nothing to do with their fraternity)

Makes me think of this Scripture:
Mt 4:19 And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.

Makes me think of this one:

Behold how good and how pleasant it is for Brethren to dwell together in unity"

speaking of answered prayers

I thought we were speaking of how all Masons are apparently going to hell (to hear you tell it anyway)

[much unnecessary Bible-thumping snipped here]

Serve Jesus directly.. Why do you need a middle man? I'm not saying judge and condemn people of other faiths I'm just saying DON'T SUPPORT IT. WHY as a Christian would you directly, or indirectly support a Muslim down the path of the Koran even though you know deep down in your heart its one of the many paths to destruction?

You obviously lack a fundamental understanding of Freemasonry. Freemasonry ACCEPTS men of every creed who believe in a Divine Creator. Masonry teaches Friendship, Morality and Brotherly love to ALL humans...not just to Christians. The Christ said that we are to "love one another" He did NOT say...ONLY the followers of Jesus. He meant everyone.

That's what Freemasonry embraces. Nothing more.

THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE DOING WHEN YOU ARE INVOLVED IN FREEMASONRY. Why is that so hard to understand?

It's hard to understand because it simply isn't correct. Freemasonry is a Fraternity; a brotherhood. A brotherhood that admits men of all religious beliefs into it's organization and helps one another (and others in the community, be they Masons or not) It doesn't espouse ANY religion or deny any of it's members to practice the faith of their own conviction.

It's not a religion in that it offers no "plan of salvation" as many fundamentalists are fond of saying. It has no "altar call" or "confirmation" There is no "conversion experience" just brotherhood and comaradery. Period.

I'm not going to judge or condemn my Muslim brother just because he follows the Koran but I'm NOT going to support an organization that's helping further hims down this road!

Masonry does not "further him down" any road. Masonry says "Oh, you're Muslim? I'm Anglican..this is Brother AB, he's Presbyterian and over there is Brother CD, he's Jewish. Now let's raise some money for crippled and burned children"

Appak: Masonry does not "further him down" any road. Masonry says "Oh, you're Muslim? I'm Anglican..this is Brother AB, he's Presbyterian and over there is Brother CD, he's Jewish. Now let's raise some money for crippled and burned children"

If all Freemasonry did was raise money for crippled and burned children I wouldn't have a problem. It's all the other "stuff" that goes on. Take the Red Cross for example.. I'm not aware they they have any shrines and temples with altars complete with 'holy books', rites and rituals. (And everything else 'of the like') They are a HUGE charitable organization.

It's pretty imperically obvious to anyone by using this examply that Freemasonry is NOT just a fraternity or a brotherhood.

It doesn't espouse ANY religion or deny any of it's members to practice the faith of their own conviction.

Freemasonry may not 'espouse' 'any' religion but it sure doesn't have any problem 'using' (And actually requiring you to HAVE a faith) to 'better' each respective intitiate.

I just don't see how you guys can sit here and try and 'seperate' Freemasonry from every 'religion and god' that comes in your door.

Get rid of the faith 'requirement', rites, rituals, altars and 'holy books' and I MIGHT reconsider.. Until then, as far as I'm concerned, this 'seperation of state' (Freemasonry not being a religion) simply does not exist and is a HUGE dangerous deception that even the most 'daft' could 'see'. This is the 'problem' I have with Freemasonry and the crux of my argument. If Freemasonry was 'just' about 'brotherhood and comeradery as Appak says why the need for shrines, temples, rites, rituals, holy books.. etc..etc..etc??

What if you had a hard core Muslim in your 'organization' and he went to one of you meetings.. you are in the middle of some rite or ritual in some initiation that involved 'referencing' 'god' (Or should I say 'a' god) He sees the Bible sitting next to the Koran on an altar. (Or pick any other peice of furniture, doesn't matter in this example) He becomes offended because he knows Christians are considered 'infidels' by Allah (According to the Koran) and he questions 'the great pompous grandiose housemaster knight of the pelican and eagle sovereign prince rose croix of heredom), or whatever you call the 'lead' in this instance'.. what would the answer be?



What say you?

The Christ said that we are to "love one another" He did NOT say...ONLY the followers of Jesus. He meant everyone.

Hehe.. you really paint yourself into a corner when you say something like this. OF COURSE Jesus said love your brother but He DIDN'T say 'support' something that is diametrically opposed to him. Supporting someone and Loving them are ENTIRELY two different things. I can't believe you don't understand this very simply concept.


NO, I don't plan on going out and shooting any Masons. (With silver bullets or otherwise.)


Btw ML, my Faith is not based merely just on 'facts'.

Faith = The essence of things hoped for, the EVIDENCE of things *unseen*.

In this context, saying that arrogance is confusing 'faith' with facts makes no sense whatsoever.


An no ML, based on MY Faith, Jesus did not teach theology, philosophy, or religion. He taught the TRUTH. Bible is pretty clear about this.. do I need to whip out some more scriptures?

but at least you'll be able to dazzle them by quoting Bible verses ad nauseum.

This really illustrates the difference between you and I and how you really feel about the Bible. I seriously doubt that scripture could ever become 'ad nauseum' to me no matter how much it's quoted.



Finally:

Psalm 133:1 A Song of degrees of David. Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!

Appak, I think the unity you are thinking of is ALOT different than the unity that's being spoken about in this Psalm.



[edit on 10-3-2006 by TxSecret]