Freemasonry=Road paved with good intentions going to hell! :)

Masonic Light

No, it's not. If something is truth, it must be objective. If I claim that two plus two equals four, I'm either telling the truth, or I'm in error. We can't say that it equals four to me, but equals five to you. Such "relative truth" is, of course, absurd.

"If something is 'truth', it must be objective"

WRONG answer..



Umm.. let's look at the definition of ojective:

education.yahoo.com...


Couple of quotes from the aformentioned source:

Of or having to do with a MATERIAL object.

Having ACTUAL EXISTENCE OR REALITY.

Ok.. let me ask you this ML, how can you debate matters of the 'spiritual realm' objectively? CAN'T BE DONE.

God is a SPIRIT.


God is not going 'slide' under a microscope so we can try and stuff Him into our 'dogmatic box'. (You could not do this anyways) The Bible is perfectly clear about this.. You can not persue God, nor please him without FAITH.

Ps 145:3 Great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised; and his greatness is UNSEARCHABLE.

In this case, unsearchable=YOU CAN'T GET YOUR HEAD AROUND God. We only know what he SHOWS us and wants us to know at any given moment. (Luckily not all of God is unsearchable however, he left behind quite a bit of information about Himself in the Bible)

Ok ML.. hopefully you now understand that you can't be objective about Faith.

Now,you have to base a faith on a belief system or 'foundation'. What is your foundation? Mine is the Bible.

John 20:29 blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Why would someone who has not 'seen' (objectively) be blessed?

Heb 11:6 BUT WITHOUT FAITH IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO PLEASE HIM: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

It's all clear to me.

The Bible is but a mere portion in the 'doctine' that is the foundation of Freemasonry and these 'portions' contradict each other. On the surface it may not seem this way but spiritually? they most certainly do whether you 'see' it or not.

Philosophy in itself cannot be used as a religion

Wrong again ML.. Freemasonry does it EVERYDAY..

Actually, it's pretty cut and dried. Religion contains philosophy, but also contains many other elements as well

Not quite.. "Religion" may contain philosophy but what Jesus taught didn't. Can I prove this? not objectively (at the moment). Like Joyce Meyer said.. "I know that I know that I know".. Like Jesus said.. I am the way, the life, AND the TRUTH.. In this sense there can only be ONE truth. I think I'll take His word for it.

Ok, let's say you love to play baseball, but you don't consider it your religion. I can come on here a million times and say baseball is a religion, but if you, who practice it, don't consider it your religion, then there would be some sort of fallacy in my logic.

Arge.. here we go again.. Although I believe baseball, like just about anything else, could be a form of idolotry in some peoples lives it's not as -blatant- as Freemasonry. I don't recall the institution of baseball having shrines, temples, rites and rituals.. etc.etc. etc.. This type of comparison is getting stale.

The fact that the Muslim and Christian have different personal views concerning God is completely irrelevant in Freemasonry. The only thing we care about is that both understand that there are certain moral truths that we are obliged to live by. Everyone falls under the same moral law, regardless of his religion.

"The fact that the Muslim and Christian have different personal views concerning God is completely irrelevant in Freemasonry" !!

This is such a dangerous statement. How can you say that? What a person 'believes' in is PARAMOUNT in his/her spritual growth. I mean.. two people of 'different' beliefs are SHARING an altar and performing the SAME rite under the SAME said 'god'. ??? (Yikes)

"The only thing we care about is that both understand that there are certain moral truths that we are obliged to live by. Everyone falls under the same moral law, regardless of his religion

Based on what you believe, maybe.. I'll agree that there are certain moral truths that we are 'obliged' to live but but trust me when I tell you, 'everyone' does NOT fall under that same moral law. At least not in the way you are saying it.

Look the definition of morality:

education.yahoo.com...

The quality of being in accord with standards of right or good conduct.

A system of ideas of right and wrong conduct: religious morality; Christian morality.

Using the theme of you prior argument, "Objectivity", how can you definie morality objectivily??






[edit on 12-3-2006 by TxSecret]

Appak,

No, you seem to lack a fundamental understanding of the Abrahamic faiths (of which Christianity is but one), this thread has taken a turn entirely away from the purpose of this site (Conspiracy) and turned into fundamentalist Christianity vs. faith coupled with reason and I resent the implication that I am not a Christian simply because I find no conflict with an organization that allows men of different faiths to participate, which is what this entire thread has become.

Well.. Appak, there is a conspiracy going on.. It's a conspiracy about the souls of men. You can not divorce the spiritual implications of the physical realm. You can't divorce the SPIRITUAL implications of your 'physical' activities. Freemasonry attempts to do this and this is one of the main elements of the doctrine of the antichrist spirit. (Now, I'm not implying that everyone in Freemasonry is intentionally doing this or aware that it's even going on-this is where, especially for me, the 'conspiracy' element of Freemasonry comes in)



I'm not really here to try and 'convert' anyone per say but for some reason it weighs heavily on my heart when I see 'Christians' supporting and arguing FOR the doctrine of Freemasonry. If you proclaim to be a Christian and are supporting and furthering Freemasonic doctine you are putting yourself on dangerous spritual ground.

There is a conspiracy going on here Appak.. don't you see it?





[edit on 12-3-2006 by TxSecret]

Originally posted by TxSecret
WRONG answer..

Explain to me again how you dont judge.

Wrong again ML...

And still more judging from you.

Despite your denials, your judging just never ends.

Df1,, your mis interpreting the context of my post.

My delivery is not always perfect I'll admit. I was not trying to judge or mock ML, wasn't my intent.
I will however try and watch how I object in the future. Trying to gloss over those 'types' of objections with smiley faces doesn't always work. Thanks for pointing this out. I'm beyond the point of being 'assy'..

(Or doing so intentionally)


Btw, I think I illustrated pretty airtigtly how 'truth' is not always 'objective'.

Hopefully you didn't take that as judgmentalism in and of itself.




[edit on 12-3-2006 by TxSecret]

Gotta agree with df1 man, can you tone down your posts? Quite antagonistic.

Masonic Light,

I think I fell out of the wrond side of the bed this morning. Sometimes the 'tone' of you mood creeps into what your doing even if you don't intend it to. My formal appologies for not keeping things in check. I appreciate you spending the time to debate this with me as It sure has taught me alot. Hopefully there has been some light shed for you as well.

Originally posted by TxSecret
If you proclaim to be a Christian and are supporting and furthering Freemasonic doctine you are putting yourself on dangerous spritual ground.

And you sir (or ma'am) are judging; something you said you didn't do.

You said plainly

YOU CAN'T GET YOUR HEAD AROUND God. We only know what he SHOWS us and wants us to know at any given moment.

Yet you seem to believe that you're doing just that.

This is such a dangerous statement. How can you say that? What a person 'believes' in is PARAMOUNT in his/her spritual growth. I mean.. two people of 'different' beliefs are SHARING an altar and performing the SAME rite under the SAME said 'god'. ??? (Yikes)

Yikes indeed. That statement alone backs up what I said in an earlier post. You obviously fall into the category of those 'Christians' who believe that what they believe is right and anyone who believes the slightest bit differently is wrong. You are judging.

I believe you mean well but your lack of understanding is preventing you from seeing much that is around you. That's a shame, but it's not uncommon.

There is a conspiracy going on here Appak.. don't you see it?

Yes, I do, but it is not a Masonic one.

Pax

Appak, now you're really falling off the track.


We are ALL asserting what we believe so I guess we are all judging here. But are we judging each other???


How can different people have different foundations for belief and NOT be judgemental as YOU say?




[edit on 12-3-2006 by TxSecret]

Originally posted by TxSecret
Appak, now you're really falling off the track.
We are ALL asserting what we believe so I guess we are all judging here. But are we judging each other???

I'm trying not to judge you, I'm just pointing out that you seem to believe that Freemasons go to hell simply because you think it's an evil society. I do not believe that's true and I think it's judgemental of you to imply such a thing.

Further I fail to see the 'conspiracy'

(Am I being 'deft' again?)

Pax

Well Appak, I would prefer deft over daft any day of the week. Like me, I'm sure you are deft in some areas and daft in others. That's what life and growth is all about. I guess you couldn't have growth without some 'daftness'.

Am I going to call you daft directly because you don't 'see' the conspiracy like I do? No.. will I use the word in a generalized way again? Maybe..
Hopefully I will spell it right the next time.

I'm trying not to judge you, I'm just pointing out that you seem to believe that Freemasons go to hell simply because you think it's an evil society. I do not believe that's true and I think it's judgemental of you to imply such a thing.

Ok.. I respect the fact that you are not trying to judge me and I've made it clear time and time again that I have not intended to 'judge' any of you either. Am I going to assert my belief and make my own "personal judgements"? You darned right I will. How could we debate or have this kind of discussion without that kind of difference?

As far as me implying Freemasons are going to hell because I think they are an evil society.. If you have not noticed, I have tried to base every bit of my argument here on the Bible. (The foundation of my belief system) So really your argument is with the Bible.










[edit on 12-3-2006 by TxSecret]

Originally posted by TxSecret
Masonic Light,

I think I fell out of the wrond side of the bed this morning. Sometimes the 'tone' of you mood creeps into what your doing even if you don't intend it to. My formal appologies for not keeping things in check. I appreciate you spending the time to debate this with me as It sure has taught me alot. Hopefully there has been some light shed for you as well.

Tx,

No problem, no harm done, and no hard feelings. It's just over the past several days I've gotten weary of being preached to by some who obviously are in no position to preach to anyone. Although you and I sharply disagree on certain points, you've kept your disagreement honest, while the others have failed in that regard.

As to truth, yes, I believe Truth is objective, and I find it surprising that you do not. For example, you obviously have a strong religious faith. Do you believe that Christianity is truth to you, while Hinduism is truth to Gandhi? I would argue that if Christianity is true, Hinduism is not; and if Hinduism is true, then Christianity is not. It is not possible to have two conflicting truths. If two do conflict, then someone, somewhere down the line, is in error.

I do not claim to know all truths. I do believe, in X-Files terminology, that "the truth is out there", and it is a real, objective thing. At one point in time, Galileo put forth a heliocentric view of the solar system. The Church accused Galileo of error, stating that everything revolves around the earth.

But even though the churchmen believed this to be true, it wasn't Only that which was discovered by Galileo was "real" truth. The "truth" of the theologians in this regard was not a truth at all.

I agree with you that God is a Spirit. However, it could be that a Mormon would disagree with us, and tell us that God is an exalted man of flesh and blood. We cannot say that truth to us is "God is a Spirit", but truth to the Mormon is "God is an exalted man". Either he or we are in error.

Originally posted by TxSecret
Based on what you believe, maybe.. I'll agree that there are certain moral truths that we are 'obliged' to live but but trust me when I tell you, 'everyone' does NOT fall under that same moral law. At least not in the way you are saying it.


Using the theme of you prior argument, "Objectivity", how can you definie morality objectivily??

In morality and ethics, I am a follower of the great German philosopher Immanuel Kant, who, like Plato and Socrates, taught the existence of an absolute, objective morality. Kant, who was a philosopher of the Enlightenment, greatly influenced Freemasonry in the fraternity's ethical ideals.

According to Kant, all rational beings are under the moral law. In other words, we aren't obliged to obey the moral law because we are Christians, or Jews, or Buddhists. Instead we are under obligation to obey it because we are rational.

Kant's system is a complicated and complex one, but its general outline is found in his great work "Grounding For The Metaphysics of Morals". In order to determine the moral law which we are bound to obey, Kant offers the famous formula for his categorical imperative: always act in such a manner that you can will the maxim of your action become a universal law.

There's a great deal more to it than this, but even if we follow this general outline, we may safely act without fear of behaving immorally.

the problem with masons is that they are a group of people out for themselves at the probable expense of the rest of us. That is hardly seen as being service to others which is a higher mode of living. Masons are into themselves and what they want and they want power and money.

Originally posted by denythestatusquo
the problem with masons is that they are a group of people out for themselves at the probable expense of the rest of us. That is hardly seen as being service to others which is a higher mode of living. Masons are into themselves and what they want and they want power and money.

The problem with anti-Masons is that they bear false witness by making unsubstantiated claims based on an ignorant prejudice. Masons have always been the benefactors mankind, but they have also always demanded freedom from those who would attempt to control people for nefarious purposes. Masons such as Washington, Franklin, Hancock, Revere, Garibaldi, Mazzini, and Bolivar all attest this.

Anti-Masonry has always originated with tyrants who attempt to control people through fear. In fact the largest three anti-Masonic organizations in history (Roman Catholic Church, Nazi Party, and Communist Party) have used anti-Masonry as a tool to subject those under their influence, reducing them to slaves.

And it's always been the Masons who, forgetting the insults of the people, rushed to their defense, freeing them from the yoke of bondage.

Flame all you want, my friend, the facts of history speak for themselves.

Originally posted by TxSecret
If you have not noticed, I have tried to base every bit of my argument here on the Bible. (The foundation of my belief system)

Please tell us which Bible you are using as your foundation and which branch of christianity is the basis for your interpretation of that Bible?

So really your argument is with the Bible.

This is hardly the case. We don't even know which Bible you are referencing, because you won't tell us. We can't very well argue with a book that you refuse identify.
.

Originally posted by TxSecret
Well Appak, I would prefer deft over daft any day of the week. Like me, I'm sure you are deft in some areas and daft in others.

But of course. My wife constantly reminds me of it too.

That's what life and growth is all about. I guess you couldn't have growth without some 'daftness'.

Right again. (And a little manure can help things grow as well)

As far as me implying Freemasons are going to hell because I think they are an evil society.. If you have not noticed, I have tried to base every bit of my argument here on the Bible. (The foundation of my belief system) So really your argument is with the Bible.

No, my argument is with your particular interpretation of the Bible. You're picking and choosing verses of scripture that fit your particular purpose and the Bible wasn't ever intended to be misused in that manner.

An example:

One of the Ten Commandments says "Thou shalt not kill!"

Ecclesiastes 3 says "To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven: a time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;a time to kill

So, SHOULD we kill...or should we NOT kill?

It's all so confusing.

Some denominations bash the consumption of intoxicating beverages based on Paul's "be not drunken with wine" and yet Christ himself turned water into wine (certainly with the intention of it being consumed)

(Fortunately my particular denomination follows the example of the "Last Supper" and uses wine in the daily Eucharist but that's another story for another time.


That being said:

It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter. (Proverbs 25:2)

So it would appear that the Freemasons secrets ("to conceal a thing") is OK, huh?

Originally posted by Appak

(...)

That being said:

It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter. (Proverbs 25:2)

So it would appear that the Freemasons secrets ("to conceal a thing") is OK, huh?

I think it's God's choice what to conceal and what not. That's not the task of the Freemasons, as far as I know...

As far as their being open to all kinds of approaches being accepted by the freemasons... Jesus clearly stated He is The Way to God. That's the reason most christians will judge any other religion as false... and we have the right to judge that, simply because we are part of the body of Christ. These are different times then the times from the bible. Christ is here, living in the hearts of millions of people, who have the authority thru Him to judge, if they are free of sin... and that's an opportunity that only exists for humans since about 2000 years.

True, there is only one God, but there is also Satan and fallen angels pretending to be gods and there are the self-made gods... sure they are not gods, but they are definately not God under a different name... God sent Jesus, as the only true way to know God. Everything before that is thereby cancelled out as being true and everything after Jesus are false prophets, as He warned us about.

So... Jesus is the way to God. Any other way leads to hell. Plain and simple.

And Appak, (or should I say Kappa? or uat or ip or isp... ya know) what you are trying to do is make the picture of freemasonry more pretty than it is. I still believe it's satanic at the top, and all the friendlyness and openness at the bottom is just to lure in poor souls... I'm watching you, Appak.

Yeah, being a christian I have put severe judgements on people, and yes I have been judged severely by God concerning those same matters in my own life... some hypocrisy in that, maybe to some people, but how else can the body of Christ grow and develop if we don't judge each others mistakes, to improve that persons ability to serve God?

[edit on 15-3-2006 by phiniks]

I seem to remember Christ's message being something to do with love, rather than condemnation...

Oh well. I must have read it wrong.

Originally posted by Roark
I seem to remember Christ's message being something to do with love, rather than condemnation...

Oh well. I must have read it wrong.

God is the one who condems, he has allready spoken all his judgements in the bible... all his judgements about all he is opposed to. And he gave His only son as a sacrifice for our sins... that's the Love part. And Jesus told us to Love God and our fellow people.

To judge someone, doesn;t mean not loving that person. If I'd see a fellow christian going astray, and the spirit inspires me to judge and correct that person, he'd only get better from it. Within a christian community this is very normal, also because the judgement is generally accepted as life-building critisizm. how can someone repent, if his mistakes are not judged first... either by God directly or by God working through a person.

Oh also beware the difference between judging and condemning... the latter is the result of the judgement and is most definately in Gods hands and not ours.

Originally posted by Appak
Ecclesiastes 3 says "To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven: a time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;a time to kill

So, SHOULD we kill...or should we NOT kill?

We should kill our food, before we eat it, and coock it... but we should not kill each other... maybe that's the meaning of this Ecclesiastes (what book is that anyway? engbrish is not my first language... or is it apocriphical?)